Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps - Page 2 - Performance Forum

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Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Thursday, January 28, 2010 1:20 PM
This may be a ghetto suggestion at best, but since the high res 60-2 ring actually unbolts from the cranks in question, could we hack off a 7x ring from an L61, size it up properly and bolt it on? I'm unfamiliar with the actual hardware except for what I've read or seen in pictures, but the idea of this bottom end swap just intrigues me.

As far as an external trigger, how would it be mounted? Would it go on the accessory side or would it still go on the timing side? If it's not to difficult of an install, I'd would probably grab some stock and make a shield for it, if debris was even an issue.






Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Thursday, January 28, 2010 1:53 PM
Look like there is no j crank trigger underneath according to the balt forums. Im sad.

Save your money. It might be worth something someday.

Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Thursday, January 28, 2010 3:36 PM
PJ you know if you need anything i can provide, i'll gladly help.




219whp - I <3 whine

Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Monday, February 01, 2010 3:49 PM
why couldnt you just have a reluctor wheel made that would bolt on just like the stock lsj one



Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Monday, February 01, 2010 6:05 PM
^This is what I said on page 1 and I also am not sure why this has not been done by those in the eco realm....simple enough.


"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous
Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Tuesday, February 02, 2010 5:13 AM
mikieb510 wrote:why couldnt you just have a reluctor wheel made that would bolt on just like the stock lsj one


PJ is working on it, but he is still hung up in the design.




219whp - I <3 whine

Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Tuesday, February 02, 2010 9:17 AM
You guys are right, it's not like someone couldn't come up with something custom that would work. There's still something to be said for the LE5 or LSJ bottom end playing with our ECU.

I'm pissed that some assclown made rediculous claims on another forum and stuck by them, then when it was time to put up, he dissapears. I still have not seen an LE5 crank, but i've pretty much lost hope that it's a bolt-on (or bolt-off rather) affair.



Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Wednesday, February 03, 2010 11:14 AM
So would we not just need a 7 tooth trigger wheele made to run off the crank pulley? It could be externally run and we just ditch the sensor thats on the crank?

likes these only 7 tooth?

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/-c-48.html?osCsid=f30b1d4595d18eff119350cecf35421e

That really dosen't seem like its that hard.





Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Wednesday, February 03, 2010 12:56 PM
SS-J wrote:So would we not just need a 7 tooth trigger wheele made to run off the crank pulley? It could be externally run and we just ditch the sensor thats on the crank?

likes these only 7 tooth?

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/-c-48.html?osCsid=f30b1d4595d18eff119350cecf35421e

That really dosen't seem like its that hard.
in that link i see only wheels for use with megasquirt, and no 7x wheels. You're missing the point of a bolt on and go LE5 bottom end...



Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Wednesday, February 03, 2010 1:31 PM
oldskool wrote:
SS-J wrote:So would we not just need a 7 tooth trigger wheele made to run off the crank pulley? It could be externally run and we just ditch the sensor thats on the crank?

likes these only 7 tooth?

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/-c-48.html?osCsid=f30b1d4595d18eff119350cecf35421e

That really dosen't seem like its that hard.
in that link i see only wheels for use with megasquirt, and no 7x wheels. You're missing the point of a bolt on and go LE5 bottom end...


right thats why i said "likes these" those are 32x not 7x. If the only thing modified that would have to be done is to run an external crank trigger wheele then thats pretty simple IMO.

Im sure the trigger is machined to the crank so having a custom 7x one made wouldn't be very hard either just requires tearing apart of the bottom end having a machine shop mill off the le5 trigger and having a 7x one pressed on or what ever.. but Im sure most people on here wouldn't want to do that so why not just run an external trigger like PJ was saying?

Im sure anybody experienced on a CNC could make a 7x one in like a day if there not already produced somewhere.



Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Wednesday, February 03, 2010 8:52 PM
oldskool wrote:This may be a ghetto suggestion at best, but since the high res 60-2 ring actually unbolts from the cranks in question, could we hack off a 7x ring from an L61, size it up properly and bolt it on? I'm unfamiliar with the actual hardware except for what I've read or seen in pictures, but the idea of this bottom end swap just intrigues me.

As far as an external trigger, how would it be mounted? Would it go on the accessory side or would it still go on the timing side? If it's not to difficult of an install, I'd would probably grab some stock and make a shield for it, if debris was even an issue.


There is no "bolt on" reluctor wheel for the 7X signal crankshafts. It is simply a round, cast counterweight with notches machined into it for the crank signal.

I hate to break everyone's heart, but the LE5/LSJ/Newer L61 engines WILL NOT work with the ECU's in the J's, at least not with their stock 56X/whateverX crankshafts. There is no 7X reluctor wheel cast into the crankshaft behind the bolt-on reluctor. How do I know??? I'm running a 2006 Cobalt L61 engine in my car with an 04 Cavy crankshaft. I've been down that road before.






Currently #4 in Ecotec Forced Induction horsepower ratings. 505.8 WHP 414WTQ!!!
Currently 3rd quickest Ecotec on the .org - 10.949 @ 131.50 MPH!!!


Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Wednesday, February 03, 2010 9:00 PM
Guys, its not hard to do.

A simple 7x external wheel on the front pulley is easy enough. Make a bracket to hold the sensor and your golden. This is a 1/2 day job with some tools.

This is not a sophisticated setup.



now The LE5/L61 Powered Fiero
Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Thursday, February 04, 2010 3:54 AM
Ok it's obvious some people posting here did not get the whole story or read the claims in the link.

I UNDERSTAND that an external trigger or custom machined wheel may work. Anything custom can be done with enough time, money and ability. I don't care what custom work could be done to make it work...

The point of this post was that someone on another forum claimed that after removing a bolted on wheel on the LE5 bottom end, it would work with the eco Jbody ECU. That's it - remove the bolted on wheel and attach an L61 head to the entire LE5 bottom end and go. That's where the initial excitement was. No custom modification needed, no machining, almost no effort!

This claim has been debunked, at least to my satisfaction.



Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Thursday, February 04, 2010 4:24 AM
^Actually all the work to mount a 7X wheel onto a pulley has been done(and can be done for the eco) if you have been paying attention to the GP forum. I doubt you guys have even looked in there since PJ isn't running any GP's..... Sorry I had too...

The only thing you guys would need to do is give me dimensions of the front of an eco block surrounding the pulley and I can make a similar setup for the eco.

EDIT:

I figured I'd clear up some more stuff in this thread too.....

DaFlyinSkwirl (Pj) v2.0 wrote:
an internal solution would be the cleanest but requires seperating the block halves and pulling the crank out.
an external solution would be the easiest but would make it obvious that you have an LE5 block, and the external sensor could come loose, get hit by debris, etc.. I've never heard of that happening, but its a possibility.


An external trigger is not a limp-by or get-er-done sloppy style solution. External triggering has been done for many looong years. Popular racing teams even today still run external trigger setups and not until 1996 did Ford put there EDIS trigger wheels internal. YES, that's right, even one of the "big 3" found ZERO problems with running external triggers for several years on factory cars and trucks.

Also, the largest reason why manufacturers are running trigger wheels internally isn't due to higher accuracy and less problems with an internal trigger( in the name of debris, coming loose, ect). No, it was cause Ford was tired of warranty work from jack hole 'tuners' advancing timing by slotting the VR sensor bracket to get a few more HP. This obviously caused knock, destroyed motors, and created warranty work. By putting the trigger wheels and VR sensor holes in the block, manufacturers could damn near guarantee that moving the VR in reference to the wheel would be impossible. See....and most all of you thought they were all doing us favors by keeping the trigger wheels safe!....nope, car manufacturers only do favors for themselves. Sorry, if that truth hurts.

DaFlyinSkwirl (Pj) v2.0 wrote:
I even came up with a way to check the ignition timing to make sure that the external VR sensor would be mounted correctly and give you accurate timing.


I've always just used a standard timing light.....





Edited 4 time(s). Last edited Thursday, February 04, 2010 4:58 AM

"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous
Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Thursday, February 04, 2010 8:57 AM
What are you referring to in the GP forum?



Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Thursday, February 04, 2010 9:00 PM
oldskool wrote:What are you referring to in the GP forum?


Fair enough....after second look it is far from even reasonably obvious.

Mike Davis and I have designed a modification to his pulley to accept an external trigger wheel, you will find more info in his current LD9 pulley GP thread. I am finishing the package out by designing the wheels and brackets.

I will eventually articulate this to also work on a stock pulley, but originally I was only doing this for myself only until I found a small handful of others interested as well....so, I had no problem buying a nice pulley to adopt this solution easier. Others may have some problem with this, so for them I will continue designing a setup to bolt onto the stock pulleys...well, for the LD9 pulleys at least. I have no eco pulleys so I can't say that I even could do it without seeing it first. But I'm confident Mike and I can come up with something on his aftermarket pulley to achieve the same goal.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Thursday, February 04, 2010 9:05 PM

"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous
Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Friday, February 05, 2010 11:29 AM
I have also designed a external 7x trigger for the ecotec stock pulley, however we ditched it after switching to the Hall-effect sensor for the L61/LE5 hybrid.



As far as a choice for a sensor and trigger style, the 7x and magnetic sensor used for it, is exactly what I would want if that was the way I wanted to do it.



now The LE5/L61 Powered Fiero
Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Friday, February 05, 2010 8:54 PM
My first of many bracket designs was to hold the stocker.


"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous
Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Tuesday, February 09, 2010 1:16 AM
Another thing you all might want to take note of, yes the trigger wheel may allow a drop in solution for the LE5/LSJ/whatever Ecotec, but you will have NOWHERE NEAR the tuning capabilities using the stock J-body ECM. Simply put, the reason manufacturers use higher resolution (56X/36X/ect) compared to the low 7X resolution our ECMs use, is because it allows for better fine tuning of the engine. Our ECMs are basically retarded. Its like comparing a Nintendo NES to a PS3. While you may be able to source a nice LSX and drop it in with a 7X trigger wheel, chances are you will not be able to make the same power you could if using a full stand-alone EMS. Why go through all the effort, when for only a little bit more work, you will have a lot better results?




Currently #4 in Ecotec Forced Induction horsepower ratings. 505.8 WHP 414WTQ!!!
Currently 3rd quickest Ecotec on the .org - 10.949 @ 131.50 MPH!!!

Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Tuesday, February 09, 2010 2:17 AM
Sometimes I'm not sure why I bother participating in these threads.

every question asked here was answered over a year ago, probably getting closer to 2 by now.


if its so easy, someone @!#$ do it.







Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Tuesday, February 09, 2010 4:07 AM
We have already for LD9's....





PRND321 Till I DIE
Old Motor: 160whp & 152ft/lbs, 1/4 Mile 15.4 @88.2
M45 + LD9 + 4T40-E, GO GO GO

Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Tuesday, February 09, 2010 10:03 AM
-MD- Enforcer wrote:We have already for LD9's....


I'd be down to help you guys out articulating a similar design for the eco's(after a full install of the LD9 developments)...that is if Mike is down with modifying his pulley for you guys too, but I would need some help from you eco guys to design the mounting bracket...ie: front engine dimensions and such...


"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous
Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Tuesday, February 09, 2010 10:30 AM
I have a L61 front timing assembly / oil pump......




PRND321 Till I DIE
Old Motor: 160whp & 152ft/lbs, 1/4 Mile 15.4 @88.2
M45 + LD9 + 4T40-E, GO GO GO
Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Tuesday, February 09, 2010 1:02 PM
DaFlyinSkwirl (Pj) v2.0 wrote:Sometimes I'm not sure why I bother participating in these threads.

every question asked here was answered over a year ago, probably getting closer to 2 by now.


if its so easy, someone @!#$ do it.


Thank you PJ.

It would probably be less labor-intensive to just drop in an LAP/LNF/LSX/LE5/Whatever Ecotec, and go full stand-alone. Then the tuning capabilities are endless. Not to mention the fact that a FAR BETTER AND STRONGER built engine can be had for just as cheap as sourcing a complete LSJ drivetrain. So I ask, what is the advantage of fabbing up an external trigger setup, dropping in an engine NOT DESIGNED FOR OUR CARS, and running it on a retarded ECM???




Currently #4 in Ecotec Forced Induction horsepower ratings. 505.8 WHP 414WTQ!!!
Currently 3rd quickest Ecotec on the .org - 10.949 @ 131.50 MPH!!!

Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Tuesday, February 09, 2010 1:17 PM
Roofy wrote:So I ask, what is the advantage of fabbing up an external trigger setup, dropping in an engine NOT DESIGNED FOR OUR CARS, and running it on a retarded ECM???


Emissions friendly

11:1 CR

2.4L displacment.

No real wiring required.

and HPT is more then capable of handling the tune.





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