I was actually getting ready to do a little napkin math on the flows requirements before I clocked out at 5, but someone already beat me to it haha.
Something also to keep in mind is that the CFM your engine requires is directly related to the RPM at which it is turning. A 2.4L at 6500 RPMs will need less volumetric flow than one spinning at 8000 RPMs. So you could actually see manifold pressure decrease through the powerband if you choose to use a higher redline than 6500 RPM and keep the redline of the blower the same. This doesnt necessarily mean less power, but its another reason to not just spin your motor to the moon for the hell of it.
people have been overspinning eatons for years with great results. these maps provided by eaton might as well be toilet paper as far as i am concerned. they are going to put a limit on it well below its ACTUAL rpm maximum to save face and bottom lines for warranties. i overspun my m45 for months and months without issue and so have MANY MANY others on here.
besides, look at the graphs, just because they stopped the plot at 14,000 does not necessarily mean thats where the redline is. it just means they chose not to rev it any higher for the testing graphs.
also, keep in mind, by doing smaller snout pullies it also speeds up the hit so to speak, so instead of max cfm at XXXX rpm, its going to come on a little bit sooner which also means it stays at full boost LONGER.. i watched this happen 4 times on my m45 setup. when i first put it on i was using an underdrive crank pulley, then i went to stock sized crank pulley, then the oversized crank pulley, and ultimately, going from the 2.5" snout to the 2.4" snout... the "hit" came on faster and faster with each change and i LOVED it.
the trick with these blowers is to get things as light as possible so when you DO these pullies that cost more power you are relieving as much spent on the blower power as possible. this means lighter rotating assemblies, pullies, flywheels, etc. i dont JUST believe in freezing cold IAT's chris.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edited Wednesday, September 04, 2013 2:33 PM
RIP silver car. You will be missed.
SweetnessGT wrote:Doing some really fast research for you:
Eaton Supercharger Data
That page shows that if you have a gen 3 model your recommended redline on the charger from Eaton is 14,000 rpm. That solves that question.
Here is a flow chart for the 3rd gen M62:
That chart was found here
I had a few minutes to sit down and look over everything better now that I'm home.
Im curious about this graph. Is it actually from Eaton? If Im reading it right (thats a big if with me sometimes haha), those flow numbers seem low compared to what I'm calculating. I've always been under the impression that for a roots S/C the inlet flow equaled the outlet flow since the air is being compressed in the intake mani and not the blower itself.
For there to be positive pressure in the engine the outlet flow of the S/C has to be greater than the air that the engine is consuming on its own without the blower.
From what I've calculated a 2.4L at 6500 RPM is consuming 865CFM of air. Just eyeballing it off of the graph, the S/C would have to be turning over 24000 RPMs to even make zero boost.
Ill make a plot of calculated flow based on the displacement and RPM of the blower if anyone is interested.
Oh and Brian... that chart shows that within its efficiency range the 3rd gen M62 can flow about 300 hp worth of air (150 cfm per 100 hp)... which sounds about right if not a tad generous.
I believe our engines only flow about 220 or so CFM through them but that's at 100% ve. Engine CFM calculation hurts my brain, to be honest. So many variables to consider not to mention that VE changes as it approaches and passes peak torque.
-Chris-
-Sweetness-
-Turbocharged-
Slowly but surely may some day win this race...
jeas chris, i feel honored that you would spent a good portion of your evening to try and "school" me.... however, i am sorry that in this instance i seem to be more "in the real world" than you seem to be. i go by what i have learned by actually doing it, not what some computer theorizes the experience should be. yes i overspun my m45, but not really that much more than others have or continue to do. ask them all, they will all tell you the same thing i do, overspinning it makes the car faster.
as far as your statement of me choosing to run the line between dangerous and smart i will say i resent that. yes it was dangerous to drive my car without a fire extinguisher. i will say it wasnt too smart of me to leave out the extingusiher but just because i did doesnt mean it has anything to do with my experience on the supercharger. the fact that you would relate the two together as such sadens me. i did what i did with my s/c because i did my homework on what people have actually done, NOT what a computer printout says. i went one further than most did and i feel as though it gained. it certainly do not feel it lost anything.
the supercharger was definitely being overspun, but not to the way too far extremes a 1.9" pulley would do. even i would never go that far. in fact, there truly is no way you COULD go much further. the crank pulley is as large as you can get without hitting the bolts on the timing chain housing cover. now, you MIGHT be able to squeeze a 2.35 pulley on the m45 snout by shaving off some more but it would be so close it would be mere thousanths from working or not working. we had to take some off the snout as well as in the inner diameter of the pulley to get the 2.4" on there. i feel the setup i had truly was the best an m45 can have. i did not get a chance to prove it, though.
i dont know where you got 300+ degrees but that is just not the case. you were however close, i dont understand what you mean by PLUS ambiant though?
i used an aeroforce interceptor gauge set on IAT for the following. i religously kept track of it as well...
m45 with 2.4" snout, 7" crank. 6500 engine redline. absolutely no cooling mods whatsoever. 80-90* day. crusing IAT's around 120-130*. 210-230* iat's under WOT. recovery sucks, it just stays hotter and hotter until you drive it on the interstate for about ten mins, then it comes down some.
same setup exactly, just using a 375cc meth/water nozzle set to come on at 5psi. 90-100* iat's under WOT. recovery is great, comes down right where it was before a pull. at night, i would see 75-85* wot pulls.
i saw the results with my own eyes, felt them with my own ass, and will continue to advise people to overspin their blowers because i feel works great.
yes heat is a killer of power. i have said it time and time and time again around here. i am not advocating overspinning a blower without cooling mods, thats just insane and will net nothing. it is imperative that IATs be kept down. this is why i have always been on the hunt for cooler IATs no matter how strange or ludacrous the method. if it works, id use it.
oh and whats this talk about a meth kit failure? seems to me the j-body world has more issues with failing fuel pumps including aftermarket than failing meth pumps. just food for thought. i only had one issue with my meth kit throughout using it. my anti siphoning solenoid would not hold back the lot of the engine vaccum at idle and low speeds. but that did not render the kit unfuntional, it just simply let fluid entire the engine under vaccum. i attribute this to use of tap water during experimenting when distilled water should have been used.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edited Thursday, September 05, 2013 2:23 PM
RIP silver car. You will be missed.
oh and i will say steigemeier's "porting" on the m45 really isnt much if anything at all. the boost triangle inside leaves much to be desired. i feel it can be opened up a lot more and more cfm can be put through the engine. i also feel this small boost window is why the m45 has been, as you said, limited to around 225whp without nitrous or a turbo upping things. they merely smooth casting flaws and might open up the tb opening some as well as the intake ports some but as far as that boost window is concerned, they dont do much and i feel can certainly do more to it. i havent seen a stock one to compare so i dont know just how much it was opened but like i said i feel it can be improved.
RIP silver car. You will be missed.
i want a specific post for this one.
please show me a real world redline of an m45, not just a plot graph that chooses not to show what it CAN do, morover what eaton warranties it at.
you say i overspun it 32% well i dont understand where you are getting the redline numbers from? again just because the graph stops at XX does not mean that the number it stops at is the redline.
the way i understand it the max rpm of a blower is limited due to heat build up in the snout. the bearings wont last long, or so i have read. steigemeier has come up with a nifty fix for this, boasting very good heat discipation with their "venom cooler". i have not yet found out exactly what this is but i am assuming its some type of heat exchanger built into the snout itself which cools the bearings and oil inside it. i plan on having them install one in my m45 snout and just running like a tranny cooler of some kind with a circulation pump to make it all flow. the use of this, along with lightening the rotors, opening up the boost window inside the manifold for more cfm flow, more meth/water and the use of a second water only purge system will net over 250whp from an m45 and reliablity to boot. just me.. hopefully i get the chance to see if it works one of these days.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Thursday, September 05, 2013 2:27 PM
RIP silver car. You will be missed.
chris i edited my first post a lot after rereading your book.
please go back and read, i took out a lot of it because i was wrong in some instances.
and yes, the IAT sensor is placed inside the manifold where it reads boosted air temperature.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Thursday, September 05, 2013 2:31 PM
RIP silver car. You will be missed.
and what is this safety aspect you keep chewing on? are you worried the blower is going to spit its guts out or something? show me an m45 that has done it on a j-body being overspun and ill believe its dangerous. irresponsible to advise others to over spin? how exactly? are there any proven results that overspinning it decreases its liftspan? are there any proven results that show any negative effects by over spinning the m45? i certainly havent seen a one, but i could wrong. if you simply show me why its dangerous and irresponsible i could begin the path to recovery. just show me the proof and ill be on my way.
RIP silver car. You will be missed.
one big thing you failed to address... when using meth/water it actually physically takes cfm OUT because it displaces air LOL. so by using meth/water it actually makes a blower more restrictive. but because of its cooling properties and ability to add octane and an oxidizing fuel into the mix you can also make more power with adding in timing and the replacement of some gasoline with methanol.
again, id like to open up the boost window more to increase cfm. trying to squeeze all that air through that teeny little window is an exercise in futility. the edges of mine are rough and jagged, liking increasing turbulance and hot spots. like i said, there is much more room for improvement.
RIP silver car. You will be missed.
Well according to my math 7/2.5 stock m62 pulley on mine and md crank pulley ill still be over spinning at 19600 rpm so before i make a desision on a pulley ima run the stock blower pulley and md crank pulley and see what results i get power and boost wise with that set up and my intercooler etc then try other pulleys and see what hsppens temp and hp wise. I agree research is needed but i believe research only gives you a good starting point and past that these charts mean almost nothing to me there are way to meny variables once you start modifing things for any chart to be a one size fits all and im on brads team if it wasnt for ppl who push things and try new stuff our hobbie wouldnt even be here @!#$ if brad had dyno numbers who knows it could put the m45 set up on the map for being amazing. I dont care what a map says as fair as flow wise cuz this blower will blow a stock m62 gen 3 or 2 witch ever mine is outta the water but i will over spin mine perioud and run a venom cooler to help lessin heat soak ppl gotta think out side the box here this isnt science its call hot rodding wanting to go fast and brad they called me nobby in high school lmao
I Love My J ♡
nobby (haha) i dont know if the venom cooler is really gonna do a lot for heat soak but it may. i believe the general purpose is to sustain a more even temperature throughout the case while also helping cool the snout bearings and oil down increasing lifespan.
and as far as this CFM debate goes, chris... im wondering... is it the rotor size that is the CFM downfall or is it the size of the boost window in the case? i feel it has to be the window because mini cooper guys are somehow getting 250-275whp out of their eaton gen 5 m45s with a smaller engine.
RIP silver car. You will be missed.
Well they do claim it lowers temps significantly all togeather and it cant hert and i wish they had pics of it but it sounds like a coolant line they root threw the snout to cool oil and keet the snout heat from soaking case and adding to the heat being made by the compression of air but thats just my impression
and thanks everybody for the math and charts you guys pirty much gave me all i needed and i really apreciate all the help :-)
I Love My J ♡
What's the map and efficiency of a 2.4 with 7" crank ad a 2.9 TVS .. Any maps? Whp goals?
id say with a built motor, stock compression, you should do 350whp pretty nicely on meth and tuned well.
RIP silver car. You will be missed.
What if a drop to a 2.7 or so pulley?
Holy roller blading martini drinking Jesus, I missed a lot today. I'll have to sit down and read those novels when I get back from the store.
So I can estimate around 350 to the wheels with a 2.6 pulley on the TVS.. About right? Sorry to thread jack..
lol its a lot to soak in brian. after rereading chris's novel a few times i concede that he is the winner. i will still stay true to my beliefs that overspinning the m45 is worth it (when spraying a ton of meth/water through it for cooling) but again, not much to go off of there because i have no dyno proof to back up my claims. one thing i feel needs noted here, in the beginning i advised AGAINST nobby's plan to run such a teeny snout pulley. i am all for overspinning when not when its going THAT far. i think chris needs to hear this because i feel as though he thinks i believe just throwing the smallest pulley on every blower is my best course of action and advise as such when this just isnt true. ive done research, ive known that there is a line between producing nothing but heat and no more cfm but you are never going to find that line if you lack imagination then just bow down and follow the manufacturer's stock guidelines.
i firmly believe a lot of the m45's downfalls lay within the inability to get the air that it actually IS producing through the case. i wish steigemeier would produce flow bench results for their port work on the m45 because i am not so sure its even worth the money. they do not go very aggressive with the porting.
which leads me to our next debate. portng a supercharger. i know next to nothing about it and would love to learn more. ive read SOME things like a good port job on the boost V window has a rolled smooth edge with absolutely no sharp edges or ridges and is best opened up to where the rotors are exactly paralell to the edges. anybody know much about it?
RIP silver car. You will be missed.
hmmm, so looking into getting my rotors coated, i found a company called jonbondperformance.com that can recoat the rotors. service is $150 if you provide the rotor to case tolerance or you can send the blower for them to do it but they also rebuild it, no exeptions. which from what i am reading, costs around 650 bucks. this i simply cannot fathom as to why its so spendy. the case bearings are literally $40 dollars. i will say that our m45 is the hardest one to replace them though because they sit in blind holes with no access from behind. my m62 uses the exact same bearings only there IS access to them from behind, so instead of having to die grind them out for removal, you simply set the bastard in a press and punch em out. so much easier, wow. but again, way too much money to install two case bearings and rebuild the snout. you can get snout rebuild kits on ebay for like $70 bucks. all you need is a press. we did it in 15 minutes on mine. ...ANNNND i will say that after god knows how many miles and gallons of meth and beatings while being overspun between chris taetsch and jered methe, i will say the used snout bearings and coupler looked and felt just as nice as the new ones we put in. the case bearings, however...were shot. my blower sounded like it had rocks being ground up inside they were so bad. but once i got those replaced it was as quiet as can be.
so, if anybody needs their blower rebuilt, hit me up i can do it.
JB-P boasts a 1-3 psi increase by doing their rotor coatings. ive read that it helps a ton with heat as well. i believe this to be a no brainer and will definitely be getting mine re-coated at some point.
so nobby, keep all this in mind for yours.
RIP silver car. You will be missed.
Oh i noted that all 150$ sounds good to me
1-3psi thats what i like to hear thats for shure
I Love My J ♡