ok i was sitting here for awhile and started thinking that, religion or more so the people following it, has caused as much if not more wars and seperation of humans then any other factor ever (well right up there with land). the hatred for people who dont bealive in the same thing then somone else has resulted in an increadable amout of deaths. i myself dont bealive in any specific religion, but i do bealive in a god so dont go calling me a god hater or anything....just some food for thought...

If you ever watch "Flight of the Phoenix" there's a line in there taht goes something like this:
Guy1: I thought you weren't religious.
Guy2: I'm not. I'm spiritual. Religion causes seperation, spirtuality brings us together.

Of course I watched it a couple months ago but that sums things up. Different religions won't get along and thus people kill each other. I don't think there is one "right" religion so I'm just neutral in it all.


Premium as of January 25, 2005. Support the Org.

yes, religin has caused great trouble, but has also caused benifits. Where do you think people's basical morals come from? What is the incentive to follow those morals?

If you ask someone who doesn't have a reliogion, they will probably say the cost too high.
If you ask someone religous, they will say it is worth every bit of it and more to have that deep feeling of love, or something like that.

Personally, i'm not a religious person (raised in a very religous household) but is see religion as being very worth wild.



Promise that forever we will never get better at growing up and learning to lie

There is belief and faith without religion. Religion is the ritualls of fait, not the faith itself. Let's not confuse the two. It is the desperate beliefs that cause war, not the rituals practiced. There is nothing you can do to stop people from acting on their beliefs, religious or not.

As far as the common moral compass goes. Even people with no religion have the basic set of morals that God gave all of us. That is one of the proofs that God exists in the first place. All of us know inheritly that murder is wrong, as is stealing and oh say cannablism. Poor morals are learned, the basic set of good morals, you are born with.


PAX

Well, my theory is that in those middle east countries or 3rd world countries, thats all they have is religion. One belief, one god. They have nothing to occupy their time with except religion. Here in the US we all types of religion and beliefs but we also have to work, support our families, go to baseball, hockey, soccer practices with our children, work on our cars, go clubbing, parties, reunions, school, college, etc...etc...Our lives are so busy with all these things that we only have time to go to church once a week (saturday or sunday) and then we carry on with our lives but a lot of these 3rd world countries dont have anything but religion and belief. Thats why some hate the US because of our freedom.

Hahahaha wrote:There is belief and faith without religion. Religion is the ritualls of fait, not the faith itself. Let's not confuse the two. It is the desperate beliefs that cause war, not the rituals practiced. There is nothing you can do to stop people from acting on their beliefs, religious or not.

As far as the common moral compass goes. Even people with no religion have the basic set of morals that God gave all of us. That is one of the proofs that God exists in the first place. All of us know inheritly that murder is wrong, as is stealing and oh say cannablism. Poor morals are learned, the basic set of good morals, you are born with.


PAX

there is a bit of delema on this, you say you can have belief and faith without religion, but the problem is that if the belief/faith you have says you must due so so, you have to do it. (or be concidered a hypercrite) Depending on the faith, religion must get tied along with it.



Promise that forever we will never get better at growing up and learning to lie

Hahahaha:

You assume there is a God, I say we learned social skills by necessity. One person on their own wouldn't make it for more than a year in the jungle, on the plains... whatever... without help from other people. I thik our socialisation is an effect of our species not having or needing a breeding season. If you look at it, with simians and other primates, they tend to police their own, and they have a definite social ranking or pecking order. Humans do in a sense and did in the past, but we're using self-determination to break that ideal.

I don't think morality was programmed into people, I think it was learned by necessity.


Now, onto faith vs. religion: A lot of people susbscribe to a set of ideals wherein they are able to qualify those ideals through rites and traditions. The Ideals are the faith, the rites are the religion.

The problem (what arose from the Catholic Faith over centuries) is that the religion is in the hands of the people who teach it. If you want to see faith corrupted, look at a lot of the fundamentalist Islamic and Christian sects. They teach the rejection of others, and the forceful dominance over other non-believers, or people that hold the same God but different beliefs! I don't think that any God wants people to bash the skuls of the non-faithful, God isn't that Vain I'd suspect (although, who knows... God may be Rip Taylor in a bikini thong instead of the Burning Bush. FABULOUS!), but either way, most religious tomes preach tolerance and love for others, and punishment only when there are transgressions by the person. Christians, Jews, and Muslims all have very interesting pasts when considering that (ie, Roman empire, Holocaust and the Crusades respectively). Seems to me that people have short memories or ignore history. Just my Ideas though.

I think the biggest problem facing people of Faith versus people of Religion is that those of faith are able to understand much of a religion's allegory and realise the larger ideals behind the stories, and those of religion miss the forest for the trees so to speak.

Either way, Tolerance and Love are not innate values, and neither are Ignorance and Hate. Kids are born as clean slates, and they pick up things as they go. It's up to parents (first and foremost!) and communities to re-inforce good values, and personal responsibility on kids. Then it's up to them to carry it on into adulthood.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Organized religion? No. I hold myself better than to give up all conscious thought and march lockstep with the dogma du jour.

Spirituality/unorganized religion...everyone has one


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

I know it's far from a cinematic masterpiece but Kevin Smith's Dogma is a pretty good movie on this subject, it's a little biased to Christianity but it has some good points.


AmazingJay

spirituality is worth it. like everything else, don't knock it til you try it.

Quote:

like everything else, don't knock it til you try it.

Like the saying goes. You live your life believing there is no God and I will live my life believing there is a God.





You just better hope when its all over there isnt one. Cause I rather live my life believing and following religion because if there is one I will be in good hands. If there isnt one what did I loose out in.....................NOTHING!!!! what did you loose out in ..EVERYTHING!


just a thought!!

"Religion is for people who are scared of hell, spirituality is for people who have already been there".

Religion is the physical name we give, spirituality is the intangible feeling that we get.

Destiny Harley wrote:

Quote:

like everything else, don't knock it til you try it.

Like the saying goes. You live your life believing there is no God and I will live my life believing there is a God.





You just better hope when its all over there isnt one. Cause I rather live my life believing and following religion because if there is one I will be in good hands. If there isnt one what did I loose out in.....................NOTHING!!!! what did you loose out in ..EVERYTHING!


just a thought!!

were you telling me this? or somone else or...?

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect, has intended us to forego their use..."

-Galileo

"You just better hope when its all over there isnt one. Cause I rather live my life believing and following religion because if there is one I will be in good hands. If there isnt one what did I loose out in.....................NOTHING!!!! what did you loose out in ..EVERYTHING!"


I'm assuming by this you're implying there is a heaven and a hell.

I'm an atheist. Could you please explain to me what I'll lose out on in the end, considering I live a moral life, I'm a good person, and I do no harm to others. You really believe I will go to hell for simply not believing in something intangible? Fear is a terrible reason to believe in something; it's probably the most disingenuous reason for believing in a god.

If there is a god, he sees right through you. Perhaps you should find a better reason for believing.

bliZsham wrote:"You just better hope when its all over there isnt one. Cause I rather live my life believing and following religion because if there is one I will be in good hands. If there isnt one what did I loose out in.....................NOTHING!!!! what did you loose out in ..EVERYTHING!"


I'm assuming by this you're implying there is a heaven and a hell.

I'm an atheist. Could you please explain to me what I'll lose out on in the end, considering I live a moral life, I'm a good person, and I do no harm to others. You really believe I will go to hell for simply not believing in something intangible? Fear is a terrible reason to believe in something; it's probably the most disingenuous reason for believing in a god.

If there is a god, he sees right through you. Perhaps you should find a better reason for believing.

The only way in to heaven is through Jesus, if you don't have a relationship with him, regardless of how good of a prerson you are, or how many good deeds you do, you'll be left out says the Bible. This is assuming that the Christian God is the ultimate creator and the one who will past judgment., but really it is as simple as that.

For example, if Jeffrey Domer repented for his sins in the very gas chamber that he was killed in minutes, or even seconds before he was executed, and really meant it, then he would of went to heaven.

Has it ever occurred to you that the Bible was written by men with political motives, just like every other religious book that claims to be the word of god? You can't honestly believe that the 3/4 of the world who aren't Christians are doomed to hell from birth because they were never once exposed to the wonderful idea of Christianity. Christians are full of @!#$ when they say if you repent you will go to heaven. People blatantly sin knowing that what they're doing is a sin. Premarital sex is a perfect example. How many Biblethumpers have premarital sex (which the Bible is clearly against), and still sit around telling other people how to live their lives. You can't sin knowingly and then think that if you 'repent' your soul will magically float into the paradise that is heaven.

Religion is the cancer of the world. I don't give a damn if you're Christian, Muslim, or any other religion. People practice religion need to stop trying to force their views on everyone else.

God created, and man fell into sin while going against his command. The race was shut out of Heaven, while Satan (the one who deceived Adam & Eve into sin) became prince of the Earth freely reigning and enticing man to become wicked. The Lord out of his love sent his son to atone for our sins by being sacrificed. The only thing is you must believe in him who saved us-Jesus. Now, it is possible for those who are not Christian to be saved such as Muslims and Jews because they belive in the Creator (God the Father) who is one with Jesus as Jesus is God along with the Holy Spirit. This is the Trinity concept. Only God knows each one's heart and their sincerity to have faith and to then follow God's holy ways.
Don't think bad of religon if one who supposedly believes in God has premarital sex, because each one is on their own path. The closer one draws to God and matures, the more they will live according to his call for us. Typically, we could compare a new believer at college level compared to a elderly pastor, the Lord has been cleansing the pastor and teaching him how to be pure his whole life and thus is more likely to avoid sins such as premarital sex, lust, pride, greed or whatever.
You are right in saying it's foolish to think I will just sin and repent and all will be honky doory. Because with that attitude you aren't committed to God in the first place. Plus you better hope you don't get in a bad car crash before repenting! But one who tries to do well but sins and then truly is sorry and repents and tries to do better is going to be saved.
I only write for your benefit. I once lived and endless depressing life with worldly hopes that always fell short of satisfaction. Never truly having peace was so sad. But with one prayer I asked Him to show me if He was real and to help me believe. I don't regret a day since.

I'm convinced.

Umm Lucca..not entirely correct. Belief in God is not sufficient to get into the Heaven according to the Bible. Satan believes in God, they have met on more than one occasion I'm sure..since Satan was originally an angel. So then technically he would be eligible to get into Heaven. And since God's love is unconditional, it does not matter upon the number of good works one does or does not do. God loves the holiest person equally as the most sinful. No one is more favorable than another in His eyes. But to quote the Bible, Jesus taught that, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well." John 14:6. If belief in God was the only thing necessary for salvation and eternity in Heaven, then Jesus died for no reason.

Jesus is the only way to the Father. For if one does not know the Son, that one does not know the Father. The person who wrote this, his religion is known as agnosticism.
Religion is man's way of seeking God. A relationship with Jesus Christ is God's way
of seeking man.


Smile, Jesus loves you!!!!! <><
Manchild-ProPain, out now, Sphereofhiphop.com

...and i prayed one day, felt nothing, moved into my beliefs now, and am fully content...

in other words...seek your own path--whatever it may be



Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

I'm with GAM here...

...you can't say GOD gives you morals. You can say that people are taught morals that are socially acceptable because humans are a sociable animal, but an almighty, intangible being did not bestow instinctive laws that humans follow. Morals are simply social rules of behavior. They're nothing spiritual or godly, simply taught by one's parents or gaurdians.

I grew up Roman Catholic. I went through all the ceremony, pomp, and circumstance that there is involved in the Church. I went to Catholic school from 6th grade through 12th. I believed fiercely in God and that I would be saved...but its all for naught. I was baptised, went to Mass regularly, and was confirmed, and in none of it did I see anything more than idolatry (sp?).

You may say "Well you may have gone to church like a good little boy, but you don't know truly what Christ suffered for you."

I know PLENTY about pain and suffering, and I garauntee you, Christ and I know the same limit. I'm not saying I was whipped and persecuted, but pretty damn near. There is no God in which to confide in, there is only yourself. You are the only one that can save yourself.

Believing in something else instead of yourself is only neglecting the fact that you are human. You are the most important thing in your life and the sole source of any salvation. Take a hint. If God is 3 parts, he saved himself. That's the message.

I agree with myself, that Christianity promotes the standard for morals and ethics as God see's we should live by. There is no higher standard, thats why when I hear about these morals that the world defines, they are just social rules of behavior, the only standard those go by is what is sociably exceptable at that time, which only shows the inherent weakness of man in upholding any defined code of ethics or morals.
Living in a visual culture, everything attainable has to be tangible. But the things that are tangible are left behind when one's time comes to pass.
I've seen so much pain in my life, that I know that God is real. I can't see him with my eyes, but I can see how he changes lives like mine. People like my stepfather don't just decide to stop drinking one night over a change of mind, they drink themselves until they die of cancer like my uncle. God really does intercede and change one's life, heart and soul. God is good.


Smile, Jesus loves you!!!!! <><
Manchild-ProPain, out now, Sphereofhiphop.com

Interesting:
Ask a smoker that quit cold turkey. Cigarettes smoking will eventually lead to death, alcoholism will do the same, one deteriorates the lungs, the latter the liver. You >CAN< stop that way, though it takes a hell of a lot of willpower, and overcoming psychological programming.

Humans that do NOT ascribe to any religious code can get by just fine on their own perceptions of societal norms. Even when they are not within a society that holds one religion as the truth.

The interesting thing, Jb4JC, is that you don't realise that the churches of Christianity have had to change with society. Original churches and missions in Roman times advocated self-flaggelation as a means of purification, the burning of those that were different (ie, women that had moles on their faces or hands), and those that had different ideas about the same bible passages. This all condoned and encouraged by a church whose focus was not the creation of a meaningful exisitence for people, but the domination of them as an end to political power?

No, Society now holds about the same "heretic" societal norms of a lot of african tribes: Men and women are equal partners, both are needed to make life succeed, you don't steal or refuse to share equally, lie in order to gain, take another one's partner, unless you are willing to deal with the consequences when you're caught, and you don't kill someone ever in petulance (casting out a person from a tribe doesn't happen often but when it does, it's usually not forever either, unless there's a great transgression).

Now, that seems to me to be pretty close to at least 4 of the 10 commandments (ie, thou shalt not murder, commit adultery, steal, Bear False witness). Also, if you think that the Decalogue is sacrosanct, maybe you oughtta read these links to show that God's laws may be written in stone, but they're not immutable:

<a Href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_10c7.htm"> Commandments 1-5</a>
Note the Second Commandment:

Quote:

2nd Commandment; Verses 4-6: "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me. And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments."

Response from the same page wrote:The phrase "visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children" raises some serious ethical concerns. This concept of spreading the responsibility for one person's sin among all family members was common in the ancient Middle East. However, most contemporary ethical systems -- both secular and religious -- hold a person responsible only for their own actions. If a person robs a bank, we do not arrest and punish his grand-daughter. Today, it is generally seen as profoundly immoral to punish a person for the sins or criminal activities of others. But this biblical verse not only holds a man responsible for his personal sinful behavior, but also holds his daughters and sons, his grand-children, great-grandchildren and perhaps even great-great-grandchildren accountable. The stoning to death of Achan and his family for a sinful act which was performed by the father alone is another application of this principle of transferring sin from the guilty party to many innocent parties. See Joshua 7:19-25.

<a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_10c9.htm">Commandments 6-10</a>

Note the Tenth commandment.

Quote:

10th Commandment; Verse 17 "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's."

Response from the same page wrote:Many biblical translations shy away from the term "slave" and use a more ambiguous word like "manservant." We have even heard Christian radio programs refer to slaves as "butlers" and "maids." The Decalogue is not talking about servants here. A master could beat his slave so severely that she/he died within a few days, and not be charged with an offense. With the exception of a very few countries slavery has been abolished today. The many rules and regulations which condoned and governed slavery in the Bible are now ignored. There is a growing world-wide consensus that slavery, the owning of one person by another, is profoundly immoral; it was not considered as such by the Decalogue.

Another response from same page wrote:Modern-day society has abandoned many of the biblical concepts mentioned in this commandment. Women are generally regarded as free individuals, with a value and status equal to men; they are not classed as property -- as something to be owned. Slavery has been abolished in all but two countries, although near slavery is still found in many areas of the world.

Quote:



Now, there are more rigid and broad interpretations of the bible, but there is a median (which I've tried to quote here) that lists the differences in religious interpretations as they change through time.

Where once, women and children were treated as chattle, they're now considered equals to men, as well, there are no indentured servants in the "civilised world." It seems to me that there is a cycle of altering the balance between societal norms of the past with religion and balancing them with the more natural order.

I've provided links from a non-denominatioal group who cite different religions as well as sects. If you want to reply from a fundamentalist Christian ideal, at least do the courtesy of researching your reply and posting relevant linkage.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.