I wanted to clarify on this. It's pretty simple, really...
This mid-ten second, 140 MPH performer still sports full stock window glass, a full interior, and all stock sheet metal body panels. In the world of drag cars and street cars, those are the determination points that differentiate street from drag. Once these lines are crossed, when Lexan windows, gutted interiors, and lightweight body panels are employed, the definition then turns towards a drag car. Had Adam taken these steps, the car would have been hundreds of pounds lighter, and obviously...much quicker and faster. However, he and I enjoyed the car's true status as a street car, and also enjoyed driving it on the street.
Now, OK...Adam ultimately started welding the differentials. Let's be serious folks...it's not like many options exist in this department for the F23 transaxle. Simple "pseudo-posis" won't hold up to 640 WHP and the continuous drag strip abuse we put the car through. So, it was either find and hurt another (discontinued and rare) Quaife, or weld the stock diff. Sure, it made the car a bear to drive on the street, but that alone doesn't suddenly exempt it from street car status.
All in all...someone has to sit atop the heap in terms of power made and ET's achieved. It should come as no surprise that the family who did it boasts three generations and 40 years of experience with turbocharged four-cylinders. We put a lot of effort into this program, not only to enjoy a father-son project, but also to show the world what a J-body and Ecotec can achieve. In doing so, we also developed some nice components and real respect for the J-body world. Enjoy!
Bill Hahn Jr.
Hahn RaceCraft
World's Quickest and Fastest Street J-Bodies
Turbocharging GM FWD's since 1988
www.turbosystem.com
Did someone post something somewhere to provoke this? Not that i'm refuting any of the points you make, but it seems random to just make this post lol.
it was questioned in the ammfab turbo thread that was locked.
oldskool wrote:Did someone post something somewhere to provoke this? Not that i'm refuting any of the points you make, but it seems random to just make this post lol.
Strat's got it. I'd have posted in that thread, were it not locked.
We have nothing but respect for the other drag-strip quick and/or dyno-powerful cars that have also achieved awesome performances, and we've never demeaned nor cast doubt on any of them. However, I've learned that being on top makes one a target, and it's a position we're not unfamiliar with, for there is no faster way to lose friends than to be faster than all of them! Still, when the very status of our car as a street car is publicly called out, I have to set the record straight.
Bill Hahn Jr.
Hahn RaceCraft
World's Quickest and Fastest Street J-Bodies
Turbocharging GM FWD's since 1988
www.turbosystem.com
@!#$ em. Keep doin' what you do. I love full interior cars.
F em lol, jus wave to them as their doors are gettin blown off by a street car
z28guy(KGM BEOTCH)
always been a fan of the build, you guys have made leaps and bounds in the world of ecos.
if you go by nhra guide lines for classes "any vehicle that has lightened windows, lightened body panels, fully gutted interior or tube chassis is considered a strip car and may not compete in street classified events held by or in association with the nhra. also any vehicle in a class which execeds a stated h.p./ e.t.for that track/class must have a clutch/converter scatter plate between 1/4in-1 1/4in thick, a 12 point or better rollcage(welded not bolted), a 5 point restraint harness, parachute if mph limit is hit, blah, blah, blah which makes it a strip only vehicle. there is a huge difference between a street car and a strip car, and the sunfire is a street car for sure.
U guys already proved so much. I don't think u need to prove that it is a street car too. Screw all the haters that think otherwise.
Don't worry, dude with the Cavy then changed his mind after I pointed it out that you were faster. He then said he only wanted to be the fastest street legal Cavy. He was just arguing over semantics at that point and is butt-hurt that he wasn't "the Best". So now he's selling it to the guy that I do respect, AMMFAB. Also he defended to death that his is a "street car" and how he wont race at the track, yet he gutted his interior and posts about racing bikes on the highway ..
Currently #4 in Ecotec Forced Induction horsepower ratings. 505.8 WHP 414WTQ!!!
Currently 3rd quickest Ecotec on the .org - 10.949 @ 131.50 MPH!!!
Is there a 'LIKE' button anywhere here?
~2014 New Z under the knife, same heart different body~
______________________
WHITECAVY no more
2012 numbers - 4SPD
AUTOMATIC!!
328 HP
306 TQ
Adam Hahn is my hero! But I don't like Sunfires. =)
Bill haven't you guys taken this motor out of the car? And selling the chassis?
I think we should more look at what makes a street car. Not what I think, or you think or Phil, Vincent etc.. What does the law say makes a street car. Fact is alot of cars on this site would not be street cars.
I'm not saying Adam's car is or is not a street car just stating what should be looked at.
FU Tuning
the word street car is pretty much an opinion. Imo a street car is something you can take out and in joy without getting harassed by the police because your car doesn't fit into local laws, like having full exhaust, proper lighting, legit plates and emissions if your county has them and safety inspection. Welded diff is ridiculous on the street imo too, its bad enough on a rwd car let alone a fwd which uses those wheels to steer. Boost creep your response using anything from nhra rules are irrelevant to any sport compact racing description as they don't have events for us, and since your bring up rules of street car at race events said sunfire wouldn't even fit into what is considered "true street" rules since theres a cap on tire and turbo size.
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R.I.P. Brian Klocke, you will never be forgotten
Boosted2point4 wrote:the word street car is pretty much an opinion. Imo a street car is something you can take out and in joy without getting harassed by the police because your car doesn't fit into local laws, like having full exhaust, proper lighting, legit plates and emissions if your county has them and safety inspection. Welded diff is ridiculous on the street imo too, its bad enough on a rwd car let alone a fwd which uses those wheels to steer. Boost creep your response using anything from nhra rules are irrelevant to any sport compact racing description as they don't have events for us, and since your bring up rules of street car at race events said sunfire wouldn't even fit into what is considered "true street" rules since theres a cap on tire and turbo size.
It's too bad you got so stuck on our differential choice, Brandon. Had you made anywhere near as many drag strip passes as we have with this car, you may have ended up in a similar place with your driveline. That kind of dedication to the 1/4 mile numbers is why we put hundreds of passes on the car, and ended up with a locked differential as the best available choice after shredding the other (very limited) choices available. Perhaps you can make a Quaife or a fake posi live with your car's slower ET's, lower power level, and limited drag strip use. We sure couldn't with our quicker, more powerful and much more drag raced car.
As to opinion on what a street car is, well...regardless of your personal opinions, I've already stated the generally accepted criteria, and Adam's car stacks up nicely. Further, it was street legal, street licensed, insured, and street driven. Neither he nor I have ever derided your car; frankly, we've been pretty congratulatory about it. it's a shame you aren't willing to return that respect.
Bill Hahn Jr.
Hahn RaceCraft
World's Quickest and Fastest Street J-Bodies
Turbocharging GM FWD's since 1988
www.turbosystem.com
"Further, it was street legal, street licensed, insured, and street driven." <------ That's my definition of street car. Full legal license to drive on public roads. I'm pretty sure the cars ranking as the fastest street cars right now fall under this but would not fall under some racing event rules for what they consider a "street" class event.
Screaming for Mercy!! wrote:Bill haven't you guys taken this motor out of the car? And selling the chassis?
I think we should more look at what makes a street car. Not what I think, or you think or Phil, Vincent etc.. What does the law say makes a street car. Fact is alot of cars on this site would not be street cars.
I'm not saying Adam's car is or is not a street car just stating what should be looked at.
Yep. The 640 WHP Sunfire's been decommissioned, and the roller is for sale. The engine will live on in my new Solstice project car. The chassis will find a new home.
As to what makes a street car, the criteria accepted by those in the know are what I've stated above, and not a matter of my opinion...or yours, or anyone else's for that matter. The racing organizations agree, from NHRA to NMRA to NMCA and others. Having stock glass, stock body panels, and a full interior is what makes the difference, and are precisely why Adam chose to keep those very items in place, lest the Sunfire become just another drag car. We'd have loved to pound it deep into the nines at 150+ MPH by shedding all that extra weight, but we didn't for a reason. Further, with the safety equipment required to maintain NHRA legality at the speeds it was capable of, it was no ultra-lightweight either...the full roll cage, clutch scattershield, and other safety items made it about 2650 pounds with driver, even with the weight reduction we'd done.
Whan all is said and done, one simply cannot find as powerful or quick a J-body that also saw so many street miles. When it comes to the trifecta of dyno power, 1/4 mile performance, and real street use, it remains the most well-rounded badass J in history. Further, it also remains the quickest manual-trans FWD 4-cylinder GM street car
ever, and that's from a privateer operation, not some GM mega-funded race program. That's not bragging, them's just facts, and it's something all J-body enthusiasts can be proud of. We showed it can be done, and in doing so, we've impressed a helluva lot of people who never imagined a lowly Sunfire or Cavalier could ever put down such numbers!
Adam's records have now stood for years, and when someone passes them up, I'll smile and shake their hand. I will gladly admire that accomplishment, for I well know what dedication and hard work it takes to achieve it. Until that day comes, the rest is just so many words.
Bill Hahn Jr.
Hahn RaceCraft
World's Quickest and Fastest Street J-Bodies
Turbocharging GM FWD's since 1988
www.turbosystem.com
Quote:
As to what makes a street car, the criteria accepted by those in the know are what I've stated above, and not a matter of my opinion...or yours, or anyone else's for that matter. The racing organizations agree, from NHRA to NMRA to NMCA and others
Bill simple fact is those organizations do not define what a street car is. Maybe in their racing series they do but not in real life, for real driving.
Bill some questions for you. I have a feeling you won't answer them, but here goes. Did Adam pay Hahn racecraft money for the turbo kit? Did he pay Hahn for the install, dyno time. I'm asking did he pay actually money to your company, not that he wrenched on the car, or spent time in the shop, did he pay Hahn for the parts and work?
FU Tuning
Bill Hahn Jr. wrote:Boosted2point4 wrote:the word street car is pretty much an opinion. Imo a street car is something you can take out and in joy without getting harassed by the police because your car doesn't fit into local laws, like having full exhaust, proper lighting, legit plates and emissions if your county has them and safety inspection. Welded diff is ridiculous on the street imo too, its bad enough on a rwd car let alone a fwd which uses those wheels to steer. Boost creep your response using anything from nhra rules are irrelevant to any sport compact racing description as they don't have events for us, and since your bring up rules of street car at race events said sunfire wouldn't even fit into what is considered "true street" rules since theres a cap on tire and turbo size.
It's too bad you got so stuck on our differential choice, Brandon. Had you made anywhere near as many drag strip passes as we have with this car, you may have ended up in a similar place with your driveline. That kind of dedication to the 1/4 mile numbers is why we put hundreds of passes on the car, and ended up with a locked differential as the best available choice after shredding the other (very limited) choices available. Perhaps you can make a Quaife or a fake posi live with your car's slower ET's, lower power level, and limited drag strip use. We sure couldn't with our quicker, more powerful and much more drag raced car.
As to opinion on what a street car is, well...regardless of your personal opinions, I've already stated the generally accepted criteria, and Adam's car stacks up nicely. Further, it was street legal, street licensed, insured, and street driven. Neither he nor I have ever derided your car; frankly, we've been pretty congratulatory about it. it's a shame you aren't willing to return that respect.
The guy that tuned my car has an acura that ran a 10.48 at 146 mph and has a full interior and he daily drives it and get something like 35mpg. He didn't weld his diff to make that pass as I am guessing he has a proper helical diff. Saying you need a welded diff to make those times with that power is false. Maybe since there was nothing that was available to you.
Screaming for Mercy!! wrote:Quote:
As to what makes a street car, the criteria accepted by those in the know are what I've stated above, and not a matter of my opinion...or yours, or anyone else's for that matter. The racing organizations agree, from NHRA to NMRA to NMCA and others
Bill simple fact is those organizations do not define what a street car is. Maybe in their racing series they do but not in real life, for real driving.
Bill some questions for you. I have a feeling you won't answer them, but here goes. Did Adam pay Hahn racecraft money for the turbo kit? Did he pay Hahn for the install, dyno time. I'm asking did he pay actually money to your company, not that he wrenched on the car, or spent time in the shop, did he pay Hahn for the parts and work?
The definitions used by the racing organizations are founded in good reason and logic, and based on decades of experience. It should go without saying that is why they've been adopted by myself and thousands of other racers and buildersin this business. You can argue all day long about whether or not you agree with those definitions, but the majority of genuine racers and enthusiasts do, and that's naturally why we do too. This is not to say your opinion doesn't matter (I know nothing of your qualifications, credibility or history in this department, but feel free to share), but when weighed against the overwhelming body of evidence and standards, the path we chose is the accepted one.
You're right on the other questions...the financial relationship between my son and I is complex, and indeed a private matter. We built and campaigned his car as a team, and that's all that's really pertinent. While I am impressed at your audacity for asking such questions, they certainly don't have any bearing on this discussion.
Bill Hahn Jr.
Hahn RaceCraft
World's Quickest and Fastest Street J-Bodies
Turbocharging GM FWD's since 1988
www.turbosystem.com
Matthew Jollymore wrote:
The guy that tuned my car has an acura that ran a 10.48 at 146 mph and has a full interior and he daily drives it and get something like 35mpg. He didn't weld his diff to make that pass as I am guessing he has a proper helical diff. Saying you need a welded diff to make those times with that power is false. Maybe since there was nothing that was available to you.
You nailed it! Needless to say, Hondas enjoy
many more options than we do in both engine power and drivelines (and, as an aside, also are typically considerably lighter). We had no luck with Quaifes, so we welded up the stock diff. Cheap and easy, and very dependable. A compromise? Sure it was. But it got the job done nicely on a limited budget. LOL, had I known welding a diff would have created such a stir, I might have come here and asked permission first!
Nah, Just kidding!
I'd have done it anyway.
Bill Hahn Jr.
Hahn RaceCraft
World's Quickest and Fastest Street J-Bodies
Turbocharging GM FWD's since 1988
www.turbosystem.com
Why is this even an issue? Who honestly cares this much about semantics?
.....but in the spirit of adding fuel to the fire: Was the fuel used for that 640whp dyno pull also CARB legal, Bill? I don't recall that being mentioned.
I have no signiture
Bill Hahn Jr. wrote:Screaming for Mercy!! wrote:Quote:
As to what makes a street car, the criteria accepted by those in the know are what I've stated above, and not a matter of my opinion...or yours, or anyone else's for that matter. The racing organizations agree, from NHRA to NMRA to NMCA and others
Bill simple fact is those organizations do not define what a street car is. Maybe in their racing series they do but not in real life, for real driving.
Bill some questions for you. I have a feeling you won't answer them, but here goes. Did Adam pay Hahn racecraft money for the turbo kit? Did he pay Hahn for the install, dyno time. I'm asking did he pay actually money to your company, not that he wrenched on the car, or spent time in the shop, did he pay Hahn for the parts and work?
The definitions used by the racing organizations are founded in good reason and logic, and based on decades of experience. It should go without saying that is why they've been adopted by myself and thousands of other racers and buildersin this business. You can argue all day long about whether or not you agree with those definitions, but the majority of genuine racers and enthusiasts do, and that's naturally why we do too. This is not to say your opinion doesn't matter (I know nothing of your qualifications, credibility or history in this department, but feel free to share), but when weighed against the overwhelming body of evidence and standards, the path we chose is the accepted one.
You're right on the other questions...the financial relationship between my son and I is complex, and indeed a private matter. We built and campaigned his car as a team, and that's all that's really pertinent. While I am impressed at your audacity for asking such questions, they certainly don't have any bearing on this discussion.
Bill simple fact is those rules you claim to be right are not law. When pertaining to street legal we should be taking about laws, not what you or I think.
My questions do pertain to the overall back and forth crap in regards to the Hahn Sunfire. It always comes up that it is a company backed car, yet you always say it is not. My questions pertain to that. I'm not asking for amounts paid, but if money's, cash, checks, payment in US funds were made for parts. Truly I think it was not and it was a father son project that the father owned a performance company that made most products used. So yes it was company back. Was it GM level backed no, but more backed than Cam's car. Big difference. Still the things the Hahn car did made are very impressive because it showed alot of what the Hahn products can do. Is it as impressive as a car running 11's, and that same car could win a car show hands down, and you could eat off the engine bay. Also with a motor no longer made and not as much aftermarket support, with no company backing. From a company who's products are in use on the other car probably not.
FU Tuning
Bill Hahn Jr. wrote:Boosted2point4 wrote:the word street car is pretty much an opinion. Imo a street car is something you can take out and in joy without getting harassed by the police because your car doesn't fit into local laws, like having full exhaust, proper lighting, legit plates and emissions if your county has them and safety inspection. Welded diff is ridiculous on the street imo too, its bad enough on a rwd car let alone a fwd which uses those wheels to steer. Boost creep your response using anything from nhra rules are irrelevant to any sport compact racing description as they don't have events for us, and since your bring up rules of street car at race events said sunfire wouldn't even fit into what is considered "true street" rules since theres a cap on tire and turbo size.
It's too bad you got so stuck on our differential choice, Brandon. Had you made anywhere near as many drag strip passes as we have with this car, you may have ended up in a similar place with your driveline. That kind of dedication to the 1/4 mile numbers is why we put hundreds of passes on the car, and ended up with a locked differential as the best available choice after shredding the other (very limited) choices available. Perhaps you can make a Quaife or a fake posi live with your car's slower ET's, lower power level, and limited drag strip use. We sure couldn't with our quicker, more powerful and much more drag raced car.
As to opinion on what a street car is, well...regardless of your personal opinions, I've already stated the generally accepted criteria, and Adam's car stacks up nicely. Further, it was street legal, street licensed, insured, and street driven. Neither he nor I have ever derided your car; frankly, we've been pretty congratulatory about it. it's a shame you aren't willing to return that respect.
Bill you really are an egotistical, arrogant, cocky, know-it-all piece of sh!t.... While your company does make some decent products, you are stuck on yourself and in the past. You seem to think that if you write or say it, it is gold. You seriously are full of yourself. Brandon's car IS a street car. My car IS a street car. Adam's car is NOT a street car. Take this as an attack, an opinion, whatever....... I really don't care because you will just twist it however you want to make yourself feel better and make me look like the "bad guy".... I'm tired of you thinking your sh!t don't stink. IT DOES! I guess if it says HACK RACECRAFT (no, thats not a typo) it means its the best no matter what.... I find it really pathetic that you talk down on Brandon's car (a true STREET CAR that is licensed and has passed all state inspections), and try to sh!t trains by saying Adam's car is far more superior, although its really a NON STREET CAR. Adam's achievements are well deserved, and I respect how he carrys himself, but you are nothing but a joke... Lets compare MPH/ET/WHP and then compare build costs, hardware, and all the extra power adders you guys needed to get that extra 5mph...... Oh yeah, WE DID IT ON THE STOCK PCM, while you had to install a full STANDALONE with Nitrous controller to market "Adam's car"...... Your claims are nothing short of pathetic at best....
P&P Tuning
420.5whp / 359.8wtq
