For the past two years I've been commuting to community college and on top of that driving 11 miles to and from work almost everyday, so my car was always being used. Because of this, and a bit of OCD I guess I took and still take great care of my car. You can see this in one of my other threads about preventative maintenance where I explain almost every single thing I've done to my car:
http://www.j-body.org/forums/read.php?f=11&t=160375&a=1
This August I moved into an apartment in East Stroudsburg, PA, and I'm attending a real college now. Between walking and shuttle buses, I don't really use my car to much unless I go food shopping or pick up friends from bars and what not. So my poor cavy will go days without being started up or even touched. However, whenever I do start the car up (usually after letting it sit for about 2 days or so) it sounds awful for about a half a second to a full second. Like a really rough sound. Almost as if, and I'm guessing this is the cause here, that there's no oil in the cylinders for that half of a second and that's the noise I'm hearing. I'm afraid that I'm doing damage to my car, and i'd really like to avoid doing so obviously. My solution so far is to go out everyday and start my car and let it idle for a minute. But I almost feel stupid for doing so, and it's kind of ridiculous.
This might just be in my head (not the noise, that's definitely real lol) but maybe I'm just paranoid. I'd like for my still lively-feeling engine (143k miles) to last for as long as possible. Any insight as to what this noise might be? I'll try to record it right now when I go to start it up, but no guarantees as I drove the car yesterday.
I get that with my cavalier. For the past couple months, its become a garage queen. I would start it once a month to keep the battery from dieing and it would have a bit of lifter tick for the first second or so.
There isn't much you can do about it. I doubt it is causing much damage if any at all.
"Oil Leak ? What oil Leak ? Oh, Thats Just The Sweat From All The HorsePower!!"
Alright man, cool. Thanks for the reassurance.
Without hearing it, it's hard to say, BUT, the noise you've described sure sounds like a dry start. Most oil filter designs have an Anti-Drainback Valve (ADBV) whose job it is to keep oil in the filter when the engine isn't running. You can easily see the ADBV when looking at the oil fitler before it's installed on your car. It's either black (nitrile rubber) or red (silicone). The red ones are much better at keeping the oil in the filter for a much longer period of time. What you've described sounds like the ADBV has failed in your oil filter, which allows the oil to drain out of the filter and make its way back to the pan. So, when you start your car after it's been sitting for a while, instead of having a filter full of oil ready to be delivered to the engine's top end, your oil pump first has to deliver oil to the filter, fill it up, and only then will oil be sent up on the top of the engine.
You can check to confirm that this is happening by checking your oil as follows. After your car has been sitting for a while (the longer the better -- several days would be best for this test), check your oil and make a mental note of exactly where the oil appears on the dipstick. Now start the car. It doesn't have to run very long, just long enough for the noise to go away. Go ahead and run an errand while you have it running if you want to. Then shut the engine off and after a reasonable amount of time (no more than 30 minutes) check your oil. If your ADBV has failed, you're going to find that your oil level is now much lower than before. Why? Because when your car had been sitting for days, the oil had drained out of the filter and flowed down into the pan, raising the level of oil seen on the dipstick. But after you started the car, the oil pump filled the oil filter and since you've checked the oil just a half-hour after you'd run the engine, most of that oil is still in the filter instead of down in the pan, causing you to see a lower level on the dipstick.
This dry start rattle is not a good thing for your engine but fortunately it's preventable. Change your oil filter, selecting one that has a red silicone ADBV. The red silicone ADBV is a step up from the black, nitrile rubber valve. For instance, the Purolator Classic (white can) has the black, nitrile rubber filter, while the Purolator PureOne (yellow can) has the red silicone ADBV. I saw in your maintenance post where you're using Fram -- if the Fram filter you're using already has the red silicone ADBV, try another brand. I've had OEM filters with silicone ADBV's that were disappointing so it's apparent some brands are better than others. I've always had good luck (no dry starts) with Wix and Purolator PureOne filters. It's worth a try. Good luck!
You know it's funny. I was alarmed at the crappy quality of FRAM filters, so I figured I couldn't go wrong with grabbing an ACDelco filter. I made sure it wasn't the new crappy E-Core design (instead I grabbed the classic design) too. I was afraid that was what the noise was... :/ I just grabbed a spare ACDelco Duraguard oil filter outta my trunk and I'm afraid I don't have much knowledge of what I'm looking at.. I'll take a picture:
Idk if this filter even has an anti-drainback valve.. Even so, If I wanted to change my oil filter without completely draining the oil, would that be possible? I still have a while until my next oil change..
Sorry for the double post. I changed the oil filter to the new Delco filter and hopefully that stops the noise. Do you think any damage was done to my engine after starting it up like that a handful of times? It only happened like 3-4 times.
If there was any damage to your engine, it was probably minor. These are the kind of situations that if left ignored a while, will lead to problems, but since you're doing something about it soon after discovering the problem, you're probably going to be fine. I was looking at an AC filter (PF47) the other day and I'm thinking it has a black, nitrile rubber ADBV. Sometimes those are OK but in my experience they're not. Funny you ask about changing the filter without changing the oil -- I did that very thing this morning on my wife's van. It has only been 2,000 miles since its last oil change but lately I started hearing the dreaded rattle-in-the-morning like we've been discussing here, so I bought a Wix filter and swapped it out without draining the oil. Sure enough, when I removed the filter, it was almost bone dry. (The open side of the filter points downward on her van, allowing it to drain out if the ADBV is faulty). I literally had to shake it over the drain pan to get any oil to come out. With the Wix filter on there now, I'm looking forward to hearing the first start of the day tomorrow morning, to make sure the rattle isn't heard. But to your question, yes, you should be able to change the filter without draining the oil. If you do, just remember to check the oil, and plan on adding some to replace whatever was in the filter that you removed. And since we think your filter might be allowing the oil to leak out past the ADBV, you might as well wait until the engine has NOT been running for a while, to give the oil a chance to drain out of the filter so you won't have a mess to clean up, and you won't have to pour in as much new oil. Might save you a buck or two!
I changed the oil filter out yesterday after reading your post, and added a bit more oil. Unfortunately my car had been running for a little while before that so I lost more oil that I wanted to but I had an extra quart of Castrol GTX lying around so it's fine. Let the car idle for two minutes and then shut it off. I just got back from the gym, and decided to take my car instead of the shuttle to see how she started up. Started up instantly and smoothly. Perfect startup on the first or second turn over, no noises, no tugging, no violence. Just a butter smooth startup. Fregin beautiful. I just hope there isn't any irreversible damage to my engine's internals. She seems to run and drive just as she did many months ago so as far as I can tell (or maybe this is just hopeful thinking) there isn't any damage.
Thanks for your help Alan.
Hey, it was my pleasure to help! I'm always glad to help somebody when it's obvious they want to take care of their car like you do. That's cool that you already changed your filter. The real test of your replacement oil filter will be when you start the engine after it's been sitting without running for a couple of days. If you don't like what you hear, maybe at your next oil change try a Wix / NAPA Gold (same filter) or a Purolator PureOne. I've never had a comlaint with these. I'm responsible for a fleet of Fords at work and we use Motorcraft filters which are the Purolator design, and we never get dry starts. I'm starting to ramble here so will make one more comment and then knock off, but if you go with the PureOne, note that their own web site says these filters should be changed every 3,000 miles or three months, "unless otherwise specified by the vehicle's manufacturer". It's stated on the bottom of this page:
http://www.purolatorautofilters.net/products/oil_filters/Pages/pureoneoilfilters.aspx
Maybe they say that just to sell more filters, but maybe their filter's high efficiency design dictates it. I'd love to know but probably never will.
P.S. Your car looks great!
Yeah I'm thinking that if this next Delco filter doesn't work out, I'm gonna start spending the extra money on a better quality filter. I figured for $4, the same filter that shipped with the car 9 years ago wouldn't be a bad idea, but I can't have ADBV failing on me, changing an oil filter in my apartment complex's parking lot isn't really doing the parking spots any good hahaha. I'll give the Wix / Purolator filters a shot, there's a NAPA shop down the street and see how things turn out. Everyone raves about Wix, so I'm sure it'll be ok.
Thanks for the help again man, and thanks for the compliment!
I have he ecotec with the drop in filter and I dont see an ADBV on those filters. I am using the stock GM filter too, my car usually sits for a week and when I start it, it sounds like a diesel engine for a little.
God damit.. It's started again. Brand new ACDelco PF46 filter, with 200 miles on it more or less. And the sound comes back from only 1 day of not driving it. Same symptoms as before.. Only happens If I let the car sit for a day or so. Should I try a different brand of filters? These Delco filters are great quality, but i'm starting to doubt the ADBVs on them.. But there's no way that a second oil filter could have broken on me in almost 200 miles. Could it?
I think it is more likely the oil pump. With your miles.
Do this. Let it sit for a day or 2. Go out disconnect the plug going into the IDI. Turn the car over for 10-15 seconds (it won't start because of the IDI is not hooked up). Then connect it back and start. My guess is the car starts with no noise.
FU Tuning
Interesting. I'd love to know if this reveals the source of your noise, although it would bite if the problem turns out to be the oil pump. Post up and let us know what you find out.
Did you try the test I described back on September 10th, comparing the dipstick oil level after the car has been sitting a long time versus the level 30 minutes after it's just been shut off? If the level is SIGNIFICANTLY different, your oil is leaking out of the filter, although I concede the PF46 isn't that big and won't hold a lot of oil even when full.
Welp, I let it sit for a day, and I just went out and took a look at the oil level. Full. Trying what Addicted said to do first, I unplugged the IDI, turned the starter over in quick bursts of two to three seconds maybe 3-4 times and then plugged the IDI back in. Started right up like a champ, no noise.. What does this mean? Is my oil pump failing? If my oil pump were failing, wouldn't the noise still occur? or is the failure of the oil pump just not being able to pump oil immediately on startup like its supposed to?
@Alan L. I'm going to double check and make sure that it isn't the oil filter after letter it run for a while. I gotta run out and do some quick errands and then i'll come back and let it sit for 30 minutes or so. Then I'll check the oil level again. But I'm doubtful that a second oil filter has broken on me within 200 miles. I'm wondering if the first one was even broken in the first place. :/
I definitely had a bad filter that didn't reveal itself until a while after I'd installed it. But I don't know what to add regarding Addicted's test. It sounds like he nailed it. I'd be interested to read his comments about the results of your test, like where you should go from here.
Alcolawl wrote:Welp, I let it sit for a day, and I just went out and took a look at the oil level. Full. Trying what Addicted said to do first, I unplugged the IDI, turned the starter over in quick bursts of two to three seconds maybe 3-4 times and then plugged the IDI back in. Started right up like a champ, no noise.. What does this mean? Is my oil pump failing? If my oil pump were failing, wouldn't the noise still occur? or is the failure of the oil pump just not being able to pump oil immediately on startup like its supposed to?
@Alan L. I'm going to double check and make sure that it isn't the oil filter after letter it run for a while. I gotta run out and do some quick errands and then i'll come back and let it sit for 30 minutes or so. Then I'll check the oil level again. But I'm doubtful that a second oil filter has broken on me within 200 miles. I'm wondering if the first one was even broken in the first place. :/
Well yours is doing exactly what mine is doing.
I suspect this being related to the oiling system. But it could be oil filter related. Oil pump related. I'm thinking it is something allowing oil to drain back. Maybe out of the pump? not sure. My next oil change I think I will change from the PF61 back to stock.
FU Tuning
It's a good thing I have a family mechanic that can take a look at it next weekend. Hopefully something else surfaces here that can give us both some insight. But i'll bring up what we've found here to my Mechanic when I visit home next weekend. He's ridiculously good with cars, although not a fan of four cylinders. If I had to predict any outcome, i'd say we're probably going to change the oil pump. There's just no way that two oil filters can break like that. no way.
Alcolawl wrote:It's a good thing I have a family mechanic that can take a look at it next weekend. Hopefully something else surfaces here that can give us both some insight. But i'll bring up what we've found here to my Mechanic when I visit home next weekend. He's ridiculously good with cars, although not a fan of four cylinders. If I had to predict any outcome, i'd say we're probably going to change the oil pump. There's just no way that two oil filters can break like that. no way.
I agree.
I have heard of the chain/tensioner for the oil pump wearing/going bad. Wonder if this could be. I still have good oil pressure.
Since I have also wanted to try the melling oil pump been thinking of just swapping it out.
FU Tuning
Well, after taking the 2 hour trip up north back to my home town, I had my car looked at and amongst having other little things fixed, I had all the guys in the garage stand around my car and listen for any weird noises and things while idling, on the throttle and on a dry start. Drained all the oil out, changed the filter, added fresh new oil, and of course, it didn't make the noise. The mechanic tried asking what the noise sounded like, and I tried my best to replicate it lol and he somehow knew exactly what I was talking about, and then replicated the noise even better than I could and described it in perfect detail. He concluded that it's simply a hydraulic lifter collapsing for a split second or so before oil gets to it. Nothing to worry about, I sure hope he's right but he's a good wrench and hasn't ever steered me wrong. Strange thing is, even though I wasn't even due for the oil change in the first place, afterward, the noise hasn't come back.. Even after sitting out over night twice..