What all is involved over and above the usual on doing something like this?
I have spoken with the turbo guys and turbo sounds pretty painless.... and i am a SC guy... so i know that side...
I am just reaching the maximum power from my lil M45... and was contemplating going to a larger supercharger.... but then thought maybe i should keep this one where it is.... and instead consider other means....
So i am thinking about dual charging my cavalier....
apart from a lil extra tuning... what more would it take to turbo my already SC'ed 2.4L? would it really be any different than adding turbo onto a normally aspirated 2.4L? just plumbs into the TB and through the SC... right?
It would be great if the SC was non-intergrated... then i could plumb it through an intercooler as well... but oh well.... i will have to live with it.
Just toying with the idea here... I am about to redo my engine internals... and figured i should set my long term goals before i buy my pistons and am stuck at a compression that limits my options... if i went dual-charged, then i would want lower compression.... if i was staying SC only... then stock or slightly higher would work just fine.
I love my SC too much to pull it off in favor of a turbo... Sc works better for my driving anyway.... but the kick of a turbo at the top of the rpm's would be a nice lil addition....
I know a few guys have done this before.... so any advice?
It is either going to be
1. live with my limited m45 and 7-9psi
2. try and fit a M62 or M90 onto my engine
3. dual charge
I don't think dual charging is worth it. Somebody has dual charged a Sunfire on here and f I remember correctly, it's making 248 whp, a number that can easily be reached with just the blower, or just the turbo.
1997 Sunfire SE
*twincharging
He made 248whp on 7 psi. Then with only the turbo, made a little more on 11 psi or something.
So you're nearly maxing out the power of your MP45 eh? What do you run in the quarter mile? You have a P&P head, supercharger, 2.5" pulley, 62mm throttle body, upgraded fuel pump, custom boost oriented camshafts, methanol injection, drag radials, LSD, a little nitrous, full exhaust, forged bottom end, bigger valves, injectors, and a tune for it? If not, you definitely aren't "maxing out" your supercharger setup.
2001 Olds Alero (LD9)
650 whp / 543 ft-lb
@turboalero
Surprising. I just read your registry, according to your profile you do have most of what I listed. Did not expect that from ken soggs. Last I recall you were pretty much a newbie and had many funny threads with great questions.
2001 Olds Alero (LD9)
650 whp / 543 ft-lb
@turboalero
Dual charging is a BAD idea. SC helps spool...great.....yeeeaaaaahhhhhh. Turbo horribly restricted by SC for no real air flow advantage....boooooooooo. Its a waste of money, its almost as bad of an idea as a remote turbo setup on our cars.
Michael Antle wrote:I don't think dual charging is worth it. Somebody has dual charged a Sunfire on here and f I remember correctly, it's making 248 whp, a number that can't easily be reached with just the blower (if at all), only with just the turbo.
FIXED
If you are even considering an M62 or M90, then there really is no good reason to not just go full turbo. I believe they have been working on the m62 intake manifold for the past two years. I don't know at what stage the project is, but I wouldn't hold your breath on getting one...which means you will need to fabricate an intake manifold or a bracket and plumbing to remote mount the charger.
The problem with a twin charged setup is that the supercharger will only flow a set amount of CFM per rotation, which means when the turbo spools, your supercharger becomes a huge impedence to airflow, which is evident to how Josh F only made ~250 hp. Imagine what would happen if you put that tiny m45 on SBC. The engine would try to "suck" in air faster than than the charger can deliver it, which is the same concept as a turbo trying to "push" air through the supercharger. If you can find a way to clutch the supercharger or throttle it so that when the turbo spools, it doesn't need to be plumbed through the supercharger, then twin charging might be worth it. Until you have that figured out, don't even bother considering it. Just stick with a supercharger or turbocharger.
So you're nearly maxing out the power of your MP45 eh?
Yeah, i think so....
What do you run in the quarter mile?
dont know yet, track just opened, but i pulled a 6.6 second 0-60 even with spinning my tires thru most of 1st and 2nd gear... and that was not even fully tuned yet.
You have a P&P head,
yep. mantaparts sport head.
supercharger, 2.5" pulley,
yep smootheflow quick change
62mm throttle body,
yep, RSM's
upgraded fuel pump,
nope, havent even maxed out my injectors yet, no need for more fuel at this point.
custom boost oriented camshafts,
I wish, i cant find anything more than the "secret cam" for the LD9. I am told gm wont sell any blanks, so no one can make new cam grinds
methanol injection,
yep, coolingmist
drag radials,
nah, this is my driver... just Falcon Zeix on 18" rims
LSD,
no thanks... i dont drink and drive... definately not going to be doing any drugs before getting behind the wheel.
a little nitrous,
thought about that.... but gas is $$$ enough... and now i go thru meth like crazy, i dont want to have to be filling up my nos every other day too.
full exhaust,
yep, 2.5" mandrel bent all the way.
forged bottom end,
well i just spun a bearing... and it chewed things up a bit.... so that is the next step... eagle rods, and pistons to meet whatever my long term plans is... thus the point of this thread
bigger valves,
not bigger, just SS and a better flow design... i wanted bigger valves... but these will work for now.
injectors,
nope, mine are still holding their own so far.
and a tune for it?
well i was working on that when i spun my bearings.... but pretty much... yeah...
If not, you definitely aren't "maxing out" your supercharger setup.
Michael Antle wrote:I don't think dual charging is worth it. Somebody has dual charged a Sunfire on here and f I remember correctly, it's making 248 whp, a number that can easily be reached with just the blower, or just the turbo.
It isnt about maximum numbers.... but more about optimizing benefits and minimizing loss. A SC gives you power right off the line, but looses power in higher RPM. turbos gain power with rpm, but take time to spool. so a combiniation if setup correctly can make the best of both.
you wont see the results of this on a dyno... it would all be real life performance... good power from the start line to red line to the finish line.
[ion wrote: C2]Surprising. I just read your registry, according to your profile you do have most of what I listed. Did not expect that from ken soggs. Last I recall you were pretty much a newbie and had many funny threads with great questions.
HAHAHA never under estimate the newbie.... just because i am new to cavaliers and 4-cylinders... doesnt mean i am an idiot and not afraid to get a lil crazy. I am a quick learner and tend to be a lil adventurous with new projects....
i dont ask stuff just to waste peoples time on the forum... i ask so i know so i can learn so i can do it.
Ken I don't think you are close to maxing out your sc setup yet. You are still running the GM reflash at the moment right? You have not got the head, valves, cams installed yet. You are still running stock CR.
I say you up the CR to 10:1 and install all your other parts and use the tune that shifted did for me as a base. I wish we really knew what your car is making WHP wise right now.
FORGET GIRLS GONE WILD WE HAVE GOVERNMENT SPENDING GONE WILD!
ken soggs wrote:
LSD,
no thanks... i dont drink and drive... definately not going to be doing any drugs before getting behind the wheel.
I really hope that was a joke...
1997 Sunfire SE
Whalesac wrote:Michael Antle wrote:I don't think dual charging is worth it. Somebody has dual charged a Sunfire on here and f I remember correctly, it's making 248 whp, a number that can't easily be reached with just the blower (if at all), only with just the turbo.
FIXED
If you are even considering an M62 or M90, then there really is no good reason to not just go full turbo. I believe they have been working on the m62 intake manifold for the past two years. I don't know at what stage the project is, but I wouldn't hold your breath on getting one...which means you will need to fabricate an intake manifold or a bracket and plumbing to remote mount the charger.
The problem with a twin charged setup is that the supercharger will only flow a set amount of CFM per rotation, which means when the turbo spools, your supercharger becomes a huge impedence to airflow, which is evident to how Josh F only made ~250 hp. Imagine what would happen if you put that tiny m45 on SBC. The engine would try to "suck" in air faster than than the charger can deliver it, which is the same concept as a turbo trying to "push" air through the supercharger. If you can find a way to clutch the supercharger or throttle it so that when the turbo spools, it doesn't need to be plumbed through the supercharger, then twin charging might be worth it. Until you have that figured out, don't even bother considering it. Just stick with a supercharger or turbocharger.
Ok well maybe i am wrong... i often am... but i dont think this is an issue really....
first of all.... a SC is a positive displacement pump.... it moves a known amount of something in a known amount of time. it is nothing more than a pump.
A turbo would FEED the supercharger.... if the turbo was putting out 0 boost... the SC would act as it would if it just had a straight intake... if the turbo was boosting... it would feed the boosted air into the supercharger, which would continue to compress it further. because of the positive displacement nature of the SC... it would just take that pressurized air and pump it through and it would come out the other end at an even higher PSI.... think of your air compressor... i would hope that some of you own, or have at least seen a 2-stage air compressor... it is basically a 2 cylinder engine in reverse... with one cylinder bigger than the other. the air at ambient pressure is sucked into the large cylinder at a high volume, and compressed into a smaller space at a lower volume... then it is fed into a smaller cylinder which compresses it even further, and pumps it out the other side as a pressure much higher than the first cylinder. of course the FLOW goes way down, since air compresses... but the airmass should be the same or greater... (same amount of air molecules just crammed in a much smaller space)
the example of a m45 on a chevy 350 is a bad parallel... since a SBC SUCKS air.... it would be trying to SUCK air out of a device that will only output air at a rate proportional to the input.... but it is completely the opposite for a turbo feeding a SC... put more in, get more out.... that is the beauty of a SC and the positive displacement design.
and the reason i dont want "full turbo" is because this is MY CAR... it isnt a track only vehicle... my engine only sees redline 1% of its life.... so with a turbo i would be missing the "sweetspot" most of the time.... it would be like putting on a SC, and putting on a pulley the size of a tennis racket most of the time, and only putting my 2.5" pulley on for christmas and haloween.
you need to design your car with your purpose in mind.... My car is a driver... i travel for work, and i travel all over.... 300 mile trips are very normal for me and the cavy... so my cavy spends most of its time at 70-80 mph (under 3000 rpm, no boost) I just want to be able to stomp it and pass someone RIGHT NOW. or see that lil civic come flying up on me in the rear view... and hit the gas and watch him shrink back into the distance.
When i am in city driving... i like acceleration... i dont pussy foot it from a stop light... when the light turns green i want to be AT 35mph...
none of that is anything a turbo will do for me. yeah at the track a turbo is a great thing... long stretches of sheer acceleration, yeah turbo rocks.... but for real world usage... when you need speed and you need it RIGHT NOW... i dont want to be waiting to spool.
Wade Jarvis wrote:Ken I don't think you are close to maxing out your sc setup yet. You are still running the GM reflash at the moment right? You have not got the head, valves, cams installed yet. You are still running stock CR.
I say you up the CR to 10:1 and install all your other parts and use the tune that shifted did for me as a base. I wish we really knew what your car is making WHP wise right now.
Nope, all you see on my list now is currently installed and was running right up till i spun the bearing....
stock flash went away a few days after i got HPT.
head valves cams have all been in for a couple weeks now...
the stock CR is where i am at now... and the reason for my posts here.... i am working on bottom end now, and trying to set my long term goals before i buy pistons i will regret.
and yes... i was joking about the LSD.... by the way.... what the hell is LSD if it isnt a drug?
never heard of LSD for a cavalier....
and the 18's are for looks and performance OTHER than driving in a straight line... remember... this isnt a track only car. this is my real world driver.
i just like to have fun when i am going to work.... yeah on a strip there is no need for turning.... but try taking dead mans curve downtown cleveland or the hills of PA or WV with drag radials and 15's and let me know what you think about 18's then.
If i wanted a drag only vehicle... i wouldnt have picked a cavalier.
ken soggs wrote:and yes... i was joking about the LSD.... by the way.... what the hell is LSD if it isnt a drug?
never heard of LSD for a cavalier....
You just contradicted yourself. Limited Slip Differential.
And lol if you think running the 2.5" pulley with the 310cc injectors and the stock tune is a good idea.
2001 Olds Alero (LD9)
650 whp / 543 ft-lb
@turboalero
My question is can a blower that can only pressurize air to 7-9 psi compress air that has already been pressurized to 10 to 11 or more psi?
ken soggs wrote:Whalesac wrote:Michael Antle wrote:I don't think dual charging is worth it. Somebody has dual charged a Sunfire on here and f I remember correctly, it's making 248 whp, a number that can't easily be reached with just the blower (if at all), only with just the turbo.
FIXED
If you are even considering an M62 or M90, then there really is no good reason to not just go full turbo. I believe they have been working on the m62 intake manifold for the past two years. I don't know at what stage the project is, but I wouldn't hold your breath on getting one...which means you will need to fabricate an intake manifold or a bracket and plumbing to remote mount the charger.
The problem with a twin charged setup is that the supercharger will only flow a set amount of CFM per rotation, which means when the turbo spools, your supercharger becomes a huge impedence to airflow, which is evident to how Josh F only made ~250 hp. Imagine what would happen if you put that tiny m45 on SBC. The engine would try to "suck" in air faster than than the charger can deliver it, which is the same concept as a turbo trying to "push" air through the supercharger. If you can find a way to clutch the supercharger or throttle it so that when the turbo spools, it doesn't need to be plumbed through the supercharger, then twin charging might be worth it. Until you have that figured out, don't even bother considering it. Just stick with a supercharger or turbocharger.
Ok well maybe i am wrong... i often am... but i dont think this is an issue really....
first of all.... a SC is a positive displacement pump.... it moves a known amount of something in a known amount of time. it is nothing more than a pump.
A turbo would FEED the supercharger.... if the turbo was putting out 0 boost... the SC would act as it would if it just had a straight intake... if the turbo was boosting... it would feed the boosted air into the supercharger, which would continue to compress it further. because of the positive displacement nature of the SC... it would just take that pressurized air and pump it through and it would come out the other end at an even higher PSI.... think of your air compressor... i would hope that some of you own, or have at least seen a 2-stage air compressor... it is basically a 2 cylinder engine in reverse... with one cylinder bigger than the other. the air at ambient pressure is sucked into the large cylinder at a high volume, and compressed into a smaller space at a lower volume... then it is fed into a smaller cylinder which compresses it even further, and pumps it out the other side as a pressure much higher than the first cylinder. of course the FLOW goes way down, since air compresses... but the airmass should be the same or greater... (same amount of air molecules just crammed in a much smaller space)
the example of a m45 on a chevy 350 is a bad parallel... since a SBC SUCKS air.... it would be trying to SUCK air out of a device that will only output air at a rate proportional to the input.... but it is completely the opposite for a turbo feeding a SC... put more in, get more out.... that is the beauty of a SC and the positive displacement design.
When i am in city driving... i like acceleration... i dont pussy foot it from a stop light... when the light turns green i want to be AT 35mph...
none of that is anything a turbo will do for me. yeah at the track a turbo is a great thing... long stretches of sheer acceleration, yeah turbo rocks.... but for real world usage... when you need speed and you need it RIGHT NOW... i dont want to be waiting to spool.
I have heard people say that for years. Sorry, but the magic of superchargers don't work that way. Otherwise you would see a great deal more of twin charged engines from the factory. And the SBC theory does work, because it creates a pressure rise at the inlet of the charger...so by your theory, doesn't that mean since the air is compressed higher at the inlet, that it will compress higher on the oppossite end compared to if the engine were "free-breathing". A turbocharger does nothing more than move more CFMs in the same way a larger displacement NA engine moves more CFMs than a smaller NA engine. So, that means you are trying to compress a set value of air movement
. So how do you expect to make more power when power is a direct relation to the CFMs an engine injests? If you would like to waste your time and money with this endeavor, be my guest, but don't say you weren't warned.
ken soggs wrote:
When i am in city driving... i like acceleration... i dont pussy foot it from a stop light... when the light turns green i want to be AT 35mph...
none of that is anything a turbo will do for me. yeah at the track a turbo is a great thing... long stretches of sheer acceleration, yeah turbo rocks.... but for real world usage... when you need speed and you need it RIGHT NOW... i dont want to be waiting to spool.
You are in the wrong vehicle then, my friend. FFWD isn't made for extremely high and flat torque curves. If you want pure acceleration on the streets from 0-60, you need to be in an AWD car.
Who HPT file were you modifying or were you tweaking your gm reflash?
FORGET GIRLS GONE WILD WE HAVE GOVERNMENT SPENDING GONE WILD!
Whalesac wrote:You are in the wrong vehicle then, my friend. FFWD isn't made for extremely high and flat torque curves. If you want pure acceleration on the streets from 0-60, you need to be in an AWD car.
I am not looking to have THE BEST of anything.... i just want to enjoy the ride. my car is almost "good enough" for me as it is... but having a little more never hurts... ya never know when the punk kid in the civic your racing actually did something to the car besides a fart can and a spoiler... and i might need to actually TRY to win.
I know a AWD is the best for that... and would be nice for winters too... but ah well.. i have a cavy and am happy with it... just want to be a lil happier...
You just do not know enought to even think about twin charging. If you did you would know you can get what you want with a turbo set -up. I also agree you are not maxing out your charger set-up.
FU Tuning
good god people! stop with the m45 talk already, theres a few guys doing good things with it, end it.
ken soggs wrote:What all is involved over and above the usual on doing something like this?
I have spoken with the turbo guys and turbo sounds pretty painless.... and i am a SC guy... so i know that side...
I know a few guys have done this before.... so any advice?
It is either going to be
1. live with my limited m45 and 7-9psi
2. try and fit a M62 or M90 onto my engine
3. dual charge
I think i still am the only one who has completed it and running (have been running twin charged for about 3 years now) but i do know there are a number of guys who where going to, so it could be more then just me now.
if you can do some custom work and know what your doing... adding a turbo on is EASY!! and then have it tuned with HP tuners.. first attempt at it i made 240whp and 235lbs/tq @ 7psi on a very aggressive tune.. which i later had changed to a much more mild tune with 250whp @ 11psi (being it was still 100% stock internals).. that was all on stock engine and let me tell you it had HUGE!! low end power and my top end was just as strong. The shop that tuned it has done a number of turbo Jbodies and he even said he was questioning it at the start but after he had it tuned he admitted that he was very impressed at how hard it pulled from idle right up to 7000rpm it never let off.
And this summer im running a completely built engine and shooting for 400whp
and yes i drive this car every single day.. to the mountains regularly for snowboarding and big long summer road trips and it runs/drives amazingly well.. i was getting 650-670kms to a tank of gas with an average speed of 120-130km/hr
So in short.. I think it works VERY well, despite what others say as clearly they dont have a clue what they are talking about... Show me a 100% stock LD9 with a turbo kit that has a power curve starting out like a supercharged car and carries on up to red line like a big turboed car.. and not you make more power with this set up.. you make more USABLE power
Michael Antle wrote:I don't think dual charging is worth it. Somebody has dual charged a Sunfire on here and f I remember correctly, it's making 248 whp, a number that can easily be reached with just the blower, or just the turbo.
actually over 400 this summer
but whos counting
Joshua Dearman wrote:Dual charging is a BAD idea. SC helps spool...great.....yeeeaaaaahhhhhh. Turbo horribly restricted by SC for no real air flow advantage....boooooooooo. Its a waste of money, its almost as bad of an idea as a remote turbo setup on our cars.
lol horribly restricted? humm.. show me your calculations that prove this? I know i have an engine set up that could prove you wrong... I mean damn it restricted my flow HUGE making 240whp @7psi and again with 250whp... yep id say its a bottle neck, damn positive displacement units suck..
ken soggs wrote:Michael Antle wrote:
you wont see the results of this on a dyno... it would all be real life performance... good power from the start line to red line to the finish line.
oh but you will see the difference on a dyno... compare power curves from a turbo only or supercharged only set up to twin charged... enough said there
Tinkles wrote:My question is can a blower that can only pressurize air to 7-9 psi compress air that has already been pressurized to 10 to 11 or more psi?
yes.. for run i ran 20psi for one run on the dyno and that was threw my M45... im not sure if you fully understand how a roots supercharger works.. search positive displacement
Basically what your doing when you twin charge a smaller displacement engine is getting your low end and top end closer together... take a look at some turbo civic or integras that are making like 500+whp and only 300-350lbs tq... and they are going to like 8000rpm to get their power.. to me having a more usable power curve makes more sense.. i would rather have 450whp and 400lbs/tq then some huge hp number and tiny tq number... unless your all about the straight 1/4 mile racing i guess since your most of the time going to be up top.. which i think gets old and boring and less impressive than some one with less hp but a more usable power can keep up to you in 1/4mile race then go and walk all over you in a road coarse
The First Twin Charged jbody
blue car (R.I.P) - 240whp @7psi..
silver car - 305whp 315lbs.tq @15psi (91 Octane) or 420whp & 425lbs.TQ @20psi (94 octane+Alcohol Injection)
All dynos run on a Mustang dyno
