I've had my flame suit ready for DAYS on this one. Have been thinking about it for a while, and after reading ALOT on CSS.net, and a few other forums I decided to try it.
I am running the 3.0 pulley, GM reflash, and the 36lbs injectors that came with the GMPP kit, with a cobra heat exchanger and properly functioning cobra pump, with the stock endplate. Heat is not a problem here, and neither is AFR, the only thing that you guys wont like is the injector duty cycle. But either way, even with the IDC over 85% the car still runs in the good AFR range.
If I roll into the throttle all the way to red line no matter the gear, no knock. If I stand on it from say a 60 roll in 5th, 6-8* knock. If I stand on it after a 5th-4th downshift, straigth to 8* knock. Then the normal .5* drop off every half second or so. All of this while AFR's are still between 11.4 and 12.2, so perfectly safe!
100 octane is currently 8 bucks a gallon out here in Arizona right now, so that makes for an expensive octane booster, and I HATE putting the bottle octane booster in my car. So I have been reading that E85 is around 105-108 octane, and that anything up to a 20% blend would not harm the system in anyway. And its only 3.12 a gallon. Considering Maricopa County already runs a 10% blend anyways. So I decided to try it. I didn't do it with a full tank. I pumped in 1 gallon of E85 and 4ish gallons of normal 91 octane. Which according to the calculators I found only should have yeilded me E17. Took the 'Fire for a spin, and guess what. From a 60 roll in 5th, NO KNOCK. From a 5th -4th downshift, knock is only spiking to 4*. Top end seems to be a peppier, and AFR's are staying between 11.4 and 12.2 under acceleration and WOT.
Now I know this is not a "solution" to my problem, and that I need a proper tune, and that will get rid of the knock, But for know it is the cheapest temp solution, and I don't see any long term effects rising from it. I don't think a 7% bump in ethonal will hurt my fuel system.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Friday, November 11, 2011 11:41 AM
Its not going to last... Hope you realize Stoich and Target AFR is different than pump gas.... You will end up with a melt down.....
P&P Tuning
420.5whp / 359.8wtq
I do realize that stuff. It mainly is an attempt at having a bit higher octane then normal 91 pump gas. You think the 7% bump in ethonal will make that much of a difference?
EvoFire wrote:I do realize that stuff. It mainly is an attempt at having a bit higher octane then normal 91 pump gas. You think the 7% bump in ethonal will make that much of a difference?
It will definitly make a differnece.... And obviously the octane factor is not "helping" if you are getting knock.... You are running it too lean like this.... We simply do have access to the tables we need to do this correctly and safely....
P&P Tuning
420.5whp / 359.8wtq
Makes sense! So even thought the wideband is telling me that I am running 11.4-12.2 , that is actually a bit lean due to the % of E in the gas. So are "we" collectively as a group running too lean becuase of the 10% E that is almost standard now in gas?
Stoich for E85 is 9.76 whereas pump gas is 14.7... Target AFR on a boosted car is normally 11.7-12.2.... With E85, you shoot for 7.11-7.49 (or .79 - .83 lambda)..... See where I am going with this?
P&P Tuning
420.5whp / 359.8wtq
I was just thinking about the 10% thats in most fuels and the 15% that comes out in the winter.
Im glad we have non ethanol 94 up here in the north.
I do see where you are going Ryan. However, I am not running E85. its more like E17. So the target AFR's would be closer to that of "normal" E10 gasoline.
Why are you arguing for? If you want a melt down then continue to use it. Ryan is a tuning God he knows his @!#$. Your playing with fire man. Just open the wallet for 100.
Im not arguing, I am trying to learn. I have been reading and reading and reading and reading about this. I know Ryans ability, and I applaude it. I am just trying to learn. Everything I have read says that its is safe (according to the governement and some vehicle manufactures) to run up to E15 in todays vehicles, with their learning capabilities, with no issues at all. So I am trying to learn why and why not. that is all. Not once have I argued with Ryan.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Friday, November 11, 2011 2:18 PM
No argument... Its all good... Newer PCMs have a lot better tables and alot of those cars have an alchohol content meter. Those variables allow for those other PCMs/cars to run higher alcohol content of fuel... One thing that confuses people is becuase they talk in AFR.... If you do your calculations and read it in Lambda, its a whole different story..
P&P Tuning
420.5whp / 359.8wtq
By newer vehicles, I mean 2001 and newer. Atleast that is what everything is saying.
But, I guess upon further reading, and cross referancing, unleaded racegas is the way to go. A gallon of 100 octane is 8 bucks, replacing a gallon of 91 which is say 3.50. so do the math, and I'm looking at only adding 4.50 to my total gas price, for a GALLON of racegas to bump octane about 2-3 points. Where as adding a 4 ounce bottle of octane booster would be about 6.50 a bottle, and who really knows what it does. So the race gas way is still cheaper then the octane booster way. And 100% safe. The E85 thing was just a theory that I had been thinking about, as it would be even cheaper then a complete 91 fill. E85 is only like 3.15 out here.
I am still going to continue researching though.
You'll get higher octane from the race gas as well because octane boosters are a joke really. Only thing is with the race gas your cat and o2 sensors will hate you later down the road.
SLO CAV (autocrossing dude) wrote:You'll get higher octane from the race gas as well because octane boosters are a joke really. Only thing is with the race gas your cat and o2 sensors will hate you later down the road.
octane boosters being a joke is a joke.
FU Tuning
EvoFire wrote:Makes sense! So even thought the wideband is telling me that I am running 11.4-12.2 , that is actually a bit lean due to the % of E in the gas. So are "we" collectively as a group running too lean becuase of the 10% E that is almost standard now in gas?
Yes and no.
Yes, 11.4-12.2 AFR is leaner on E17 than E10.
No, you aren't really running a 11.4-12.2 AFR. Simply put: your wideband is lying to you. Your wideband can only read lambda, and so you are in fact richer than the AFR the wideband is telling you you are. If you are going to run a blend like this, it would make more sense to switch to a lamda reading if your gauge supports it, but it honestly doesn't matter. The AFR displayed is merely a calculation based on the type of fuel it
assumes you are running and not a true AFR reading.
You might be OK to run a diluted blend like this, but like Ryan said, there are some tables you HPT guys simply don't have to tune for the higher alcohol content fuels. So reliability will suffer, but by how much?
I have no signiture
Addicted to meth wrote:SLO CAV (autocrossing dude) wrote:You'll get higher octane from the race gas as well because octane boosters are a joke really. Only thing is with the race gas your cat and o2 sensors will hate you later down the road.
octane boosters being a joke is a joke.
How so? If you had 93 octane in the tank and toss a bottle on top of that what would the octane end up being maybe 94.5?
SLO CAV (autocrossing dude) wrote:Addicted to meth wrote:SLO CAV (autocrossing dude) wrote:You'll get higher octane from the race gas as well because octane boosters are a joke really. Only thing is with the race gas your cat and o2 sensors will hate you later down the road.
octane boosters being a joke is a joke.
How so? If you had 93 octane in the tank and toss a bottle on top of that what would the octane end up being maybe 94.5?
93.001.... literally thats all they add. its mostly a gimmick....
Sorry should have said more than I did. In the right situation it works. People use ti all the time with water.meth injection to increase the octane.
FU Tuning
Whalesac wrote:EvoFire wrote:Makes sense! So even thought the wideband is telling me that I am running 11.4-12.2 , that is actually a bit lean due to the % of E in the gas. So are "we" collectively as a group running too lean becuase of the 10% E that is almost standard now in gas?
Yes and no.
Yes, 11.4-12.2 AFR is leaner on E17 than E10.
No, you aren't really running a 11.4-12.2 AFR. Simply put: your wideband is lying to you. Your wideband can only read lambda, and so you are in fact richer than the AFR the wideband is telling you you are. If you are going to run a blend like this, it would make more sense to switch to a lamda reading if your gauge supports it, but it honestly doesn't matter. The AFR displayed is merely a calculation based on the type of fuel it assumes you are running and not a true AFR reading.
You might be OK to run a diluted blend like this, but like Ryan said, there are some tables you HPT guys simply don't have to tune for the higher alcohol content fuels. So reliability will suffer, but by how much?
Correct! Also, as far as this additive talk, the only think I have found to really work would be Torco.... Other than that, mix in some race gas....
P&P Tuning
420.5whp / 359.8wtq
E85 needs 30% more fuel, this what i am trying to do too. you get less gas mileage from e85 do to it needs more of it. With 60 lb injectors it should be tune-able for e85.
03 Chevy Cavalier $1500.00
Turbo T3/4 $100.00
Inter-cooler $40.00
Kicking your $10,000 cars ass $ priceless $
so lemme get this right. if im running and e17 blend, and the wideband says im running @ 12AFR at WOT then i am actually running richer then that?
I believe he means youd be running leaner.
Since it would take more e17 to make you reach the target afr then regular gas.
E85 or any mix of ethanol will make your car run lean. thats why you with get a system lean code on any car that has not been modified to run it. or at lest a 50/ 50 mix will set a code. take you moms car fill it up with e85 system too lean will set a code. it takes about 30% more fuel with e85 that 85% ethanol 15% gas. I am about 50% rich on stock pulley and 60lb injectors. My SAFC works to a point. it set a code for maf signal low because i am modifying the voltage before it get back to the ECM.
03 Chevy Cavalier $1500.00
Turbo T3/4 $100.00
Inter-cooler $40.00
Kicking your $10,000 cars ass $ priceless $
Dammit, how did I miss this thread. If you were near here I would tune it for you. If I were you I would not try to tune E without realizing the full implications of how the engine management systems work and how O2 sensors work. In this case, yes you can run even full e85, but you have to know what you are doing with the tune. You will not melt down if you understand that lambda 1 is always lambda 1 no matter the fuel and lambda 0.84 is always lambda 0.84. And realize that when the car is in closed loop it will always try to achieve lambda 1 no matter what fuel is in it. Look for the last e85 thread so that we dont have to go through that whole argument again.
That said, if you decide to go this way. You will need larger injectors for anything more than about e20. And if you do decide to go this way I will do my best to try to make you understand how this works. Because in order to make this work you must understand and not merely just know.
1994 Saturn SL2 Home Coming Edition: backup car
2002 Chevy Cavalier LS Sport Coupe: In a Junk Yard
1995 Mazda Miata R-package Class=STR
Sponsored by:
Kronos Performance
WPI Class of '12 Mechanical Engineering
WPI SAE Risk and Sustainability Management Officer
EvoFire wrote:so lemme get this right. if im running and e17 blend, and the wideband says im running @ 12AFR at WOT then i am actually running richer then that?
Yes, if you are tuned for it and you are commanding 12:1 and the wideband is giving you 12:1 you are actually running at ~11.6:1 or if you were running full E and tuned for 12:1 afr your wideband would say 12:1 but it would actually be 7.4:1.
1994 Saturn SL2 Home Coming Edition: backup car
2002 Chevy Cavalier LS Sport Coupe: In a Junk Yard
1995 Mazda Miata R-package Class=STR
Sponsored by:
Kronos Performance
WPI Class of '12 Mechanical Engineering
WPI SAE Risk and Sustainability Management Officer
