I keep seeing posts where people are repeatedly recommending HP tuners as solutions to various vehicular ills. In these posts I see people who actually have the system recommending it, as opposed to the typical orgite with no clue just parroting what someone else has said.
My question is why?
In my opinion, and I believe my opinions are usually well based, tuning a car requires the MOST ADVANCED experience level in modifying a car. To put this in perspective: changing air filter setup = level 1, exhaust = level 1 possibly 2, change cams = level 3, turbocharge = level 4 (non- kit 5), design and assemble a correct "race" engine = level 5, properly tune an aftermarket efi system = level 4, properly tune an OEM system = level 5.
I see simple clues in some of these posts that scream at me to never recommend advance level anything to improve the situation.
Posts where: a person is virtually screaming that GM is incapable of tuning anything correctly (please by a clue idiot, they are better at this than everyone here combined), the person has obvious mechanical issues well before tuning should be attempted (a GM SC program running 10:1 A/Fs when most have seen 13:1 overall in the past is a failure issue not a tune issue), or a guy obviously has no clue at all about the gbasics of the system (HP in this case) but believes he's beyond qualified to use it.
In a previous post by 05 CavLSsedan (or similar name) a few weeks ago, I tried to bring this point up because it was obvious that what I am discussing here was present there. My initial comments were not to insult the guy, although there was no way to ask what I was asking without doing so. Rather I was wondering why so many were trying to tell him to buy HP when he lacked even the most basic knowledge about it, and worse yet, wasn't doing well processing the info he was being given.
My reason for this post was probably just to vent, but I'm curious if anyone else has noticed this. Or if any feels the same as I do. Or even if anyone feels I way off base here.
Do you have an opinion?
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You have to be pretty dumb to not know how to enter a number into a box and then hit write
You dont even really have to know how to use things these days , reason why ppl are reccommending HP tuners is because its actually the easiest solution for alot of problems, changing 1 box for an injector constant is a hellva lot easier than setting up a fmu and fpr sawing hard lines and rerunning lines fittings etc. or setting up megasquirt
It is true that with HP tuners that will give you better results than any GM flash because its specific to your car, not a "production line" solution that is set up conservatively
1989 Turbo Trans Am #82, 2007 Cobalt SS G85
You don't get the point. Todd is totally right. Most people here will say to get Hp tuner but the guy with a problem doens't even know witch way to turn a bolt to take it out.
IMO, the guy that ask a question about a problem he has with his car is not qualified to use Hp tuner.
Also, Todd, you have too much experience in that category so I'd say that tuning would be more than 5. A GOOD tuner(not the usual JBO user) as alot more experience than a guy building a turbo setup.
Gilles
2.3 Ho
Rodimus Prime wrote: You have to be pretty dumb to not know how to enter a number into a box and then hit write
A person is pretty dumb if he/she just enter a random # that he/she doesn't understand into a box you also not understood and hit write. A smart and skilled person will understand what is really happening when they change that #, fully understand why they are changing it, and what the result will be.
I have even seen one guy trying to run 700+cc injectors on a 2-300hp engine "just because I want to be safe". Here he is changing the # because he doesn't understand how mismatched the parts he is using truly are.
Rodimus Prime wrote:You dont even really have to know how to use things these days , reason why ppl are reccommending HP tuners is because its actually the easiest solution for alot of problems, changing 1 box for an injector constant is a hellva lot easier than setting up a fmu and fpr sawing hard lines and rerunning lines fittings etc. or setting up megasquirt
A perfect example of exactly what I am talking about. How exactly does changing the injector constant only ("changing 1 box only") accomplish the same thing as installing an FMU or a Megasquirt???
It doesn't. If you think it does, you don't understand tuning well enough to properly use this software..... and probably should be using it either. (yes, its another general statement that can and will be taken as a personal insult....sorry)
But, the statement at the beginning, "You dont even really have to know how to use things these days" kinda overshadows anything else posted. Scary statement... too scary to even comment further on.
Rodimus Prime wrote:It is true that with HP tuners that will give you better results than any GM flash because its specific to your car, not a "production line" solution that is set up conservatively
Show me where.
No one has shown anything concrete as an improvement yet.
While I will admit that it is possible and very well should be the case, it simply hasn't been shown to be true yet.
Instead we have people who have only done so in there mind and the sort of things we are seeing are along the lines of "20° of timing over stock"or "I don't want to be held at the GM's performance level". Statements which are misinformed and really pretty scary.
I do hope to attempt to make some improvements myself, hopefully in the near future. But I still won't expect any improvements until I actually prove it can be done.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Friday, August 04, 2006 11:27 AM
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well said. I recommend HP Tuners for tuning because of the results the cobaltss guys are having with it (great results BTW), but you do have to know how to use it correctly. If I ever buy it, I won't tune it myself since I'd have no clue what value to change where.
15.574 @ 89 mph stock without charger. new times with charger coming soon.
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You have to be pretty dumb to not know how to enter a number into a box and then hit write
JBO's own Homer Simpson!!
Rodimus, if you want to pick the numbers, I'll pick the boxes for you to enter them in, and we can end this game fairly quickly.
Seriously, if you want to play with your car to learn tuning, then fine. If you feel that the risk of damaging something is worth the experience, then fine. But how can you possibly tell someone else to use the same approach? And in the case where you've got a person who may have spent hard earned money building what he has based on good recommendations from others, would you even want to be responsible for giving out advice that led to damaged parts?
Keep in mind that no GM tech has access to any tuning variables that make a difference. GM believes that giving it out would be putting too much power in the hands of people that couldn't handle it. If you cannot sit and have a conversation with a mechanic / tech about computerized engine performance without getting lost at least once, you should ask yourself just what the heck you're doing with software more powerful than what the tech has?
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A smart and skilled person will understand what is really happening when they change that #, fully understand why they are changing it, and what the result will be.
If you enter every tuning job with this attitude, you will achieve professional results more often than not.
-->Slow
^^ I agree.
HPT is a great tool in the right hands. It can solve problems we couldn't before in a graceful way, but if you don't know/understand what your changing, have someone who does do it for you. I have told people to use it, but I assumed they would use the same good judgement I would in the same case (i.e. dyno tune your motor, by a pro if needed). I guess that is a bad assumption. I am building my Cav as a learning tool, so I only blame myself for any muckup. Too bad people are so fast to point fingers and pass blame for their own ignorance, otherwise this would be a non-issue. It is the same in any highly skilled area. Look at overclocking computers for example. People say do this do that, but some just want a computer that works a little better for cheap.
Sven you totally quarterloafed your computer..
its not a easy for anything , and not for beginers by a long shot
it is a solution for alot of things , if you know , or have someone that knows what they are doing , since similar programs have been out for a long time for other vehicles
its best to start off slow , and take a lot of baby steps
I have recommended HP Tners to people for tuning options. When someone ask questions about issues they are having tuning or non- tuning I give them options or fixes. Not based off what there (that person can or can not do), but based off the best fix for the issue. I currently do not own HP Tuners, nor have I ever used it. I do plant to get it, but when I do I will not be making any changes to my car (except for cooling fan turn on, and maybe speed limiter), the rest will be done by a local tuner. I plan to learn from him on how to tune. I know I do not know how to tune something like HP, Megasquirt etc... I do plan to learn. I do not see a problem with telling someone (who knows very little about modding), that they could use HP because if they were really going to go off my advice they should still research it and find that they will need tuning (real tuning, by someone who knows how).
Now on this same subject it kills me how many people have bought HP, but not been to a dyno to tune, but just raise rev limiters, and increase spark advance until they seem knock and then decrease it. how do you know you are gaining power from that??? I think we have more poorly tuned J's then before HP.
FU Tuning
I reccomend it because my friend is one of the writers for the program lol!!!! that makes my opinion biased lol.
Yes, I am guilty of this to a degree. I think I recently recommended it to someone who posted about swapping a 2.3 HO into their 97 Jbody.
I have bought HP Tuners, and only have tinkered with the injector constant to see how the car reacts. I know that I don't have the knowledge to tune the car myself. I am going back at the end of September to have the car tuned once some parts arrive
Jason
99 Z24
Racers Edge
Johnny Mack Turbo Systems
Engineered Performance
i seen it when a friend(spdrcrz) came up to visit me. he did a few minor things on the wifes 02 ls sport. i was blown away on the hp tuners set up. IT is truley a awesome program.
me personally - i wouldnt know where to start with that program as i am not that good with computers. I have the basic tuning knowledge, and understand the general terminology, but no where near enough to tune a car.
Being a relative newbie to the tuning issues I haven't even begun to think about HP tuners, for a couple of reasons. 1) my car is a daily driver that gets about 1K miles a week and is currently my only form of transport, 2) I was raised as a RWD gearhead, I cun understand changing jet sizes on a carb, understanding the CFM and when to much is to much, I actually own and know how to operate a dwell tach (I hear people scratching their heads going a what?) but I don't know squat about this, and it scares me lots.
I sit hear and read this stuff, but know that unless I get my hands on it with a competent person (thank goodness I know Todd) I wouldn't trust myself to understand this, and I feel that many people here are in the same boat, but are afraid to admit it. What bothers me most is the people who buy it for the reason above, to remove your speed limiter. I have seen just a couple of cars that may truly need this on the track, and even fewer that need it on the street. It would have made more sense to say raise your rev limiter than the speed limiter as that may actually be useful
As for telling people, the Org as a whole needs to realize we have people who have a great understanding on everything in automotive minutae here, and we also have the 15 year old who got a car and is working on it to be ready to drive (and whose dad thinks that getting his hands dirty is checking the oil) so he has no background in car stuff and is using a WalMart special tool kit.
HP tuners is going to turn out to be a good tool, if used properly, but could also be a death of many different cars if tuned improperly. Rodimus is a prime example, up until a couple of months ago he thought his car was fine with the RSM SC kit, and their reprogramming. We have all heard that fiasco, and now he is saying it is just changing numbers in a box. I am smart enough to realzie that while changes may be small they always affect something else. I watched a friend try to work on a tune so that it would work with the Saab turbo set-up, and he had issues. One number will always affect another in these programs.
I don't recommend HP tuners yet, though I think it is an amazing tool, it is very much like adding a nitrous bottle to your car. You can get greatt hings from this add-on, it will make your car a better vehicle, but in the end if you do it incorrectly you are going to blow something up and possibly get hurt in the process.
Yeah I ramble on.....
Im sorry that the rest of you endeavor so hard to understand hp tuners its really not that complicated took me a month or two and now i have a pretty good understanding of it, and im not the most engine smart person so i know others will pick it up faster
I honestly think its a waste on anything but a boosted car, perhaps your not understanding quite what i mean, you do of course have to know what your doing which as i stated is not that hard to learn and by changing numbers in a box when you know what your doing i mean is easier than hacking up fuel lines and stock wiring harnesses to wire up some piggy back or an fmu, I can acheive pretty much the same thing in a matter of minutes
I have tuned my car to the limits of my current injectors to an almost perfect AFR with no knock, yet I wouldnt have a clue how to tear apart and build a motor so I dont think its really that hard, I dunno maybe for some ppl that dont have a concept of how it works maybe it is hard, but i dont think thats most ppl. Certainly not ppl working with cars for years. I think an FMU is 10x more of a pain in the ass to tune then hp tuners is
1989 Turbo Trans Am #82, 2007 Cobalt SS G85
Rodimus Prime wrote:Im sorry that the rest of you endeavor so hard to understand hp tuners its really not that complicated took me a month or two and now i have a pretty good understanding of it, and im not the most engine smart person so i know others will pick it up faster
I honestly think its a waste on anything but a boosted car, perhaps your not understanding quite what i mean, you do of course have to know what your doing which as i stated is not that hard to learn and by changing numbers in a box when you know what your doing i mean is easier than hacking up fuel lines and stock wiring harnesses to wire up some piggy back or an fmu, I can acheive pretty much the same thing in a matter of minutes
I have tuned my car to the limits of my current injectors to an almost perfect AFR with no knock, yet I wouldnt have a clue how to tear apart and build a motor so I dont think its really that hard, I dunno maybe for some ppl that dont have a concept of how it works maybe it is hard, but i dont think thats most ppl. Certainly not ppl working with cars for years. I think an FMU is 10x more of a pain in the ass to tune then hp tuners is
From what I do know I would have to totaly disagree with you on what you said. A FMU is one single part of tuning. If you are boosted and running a FMU that is just your fuel. With a wideband tuning just fuel is not too hard with a FMU. I'm sure the same could be said about HP (for just fuel). In what I said in my other post I'm referring to the fact that HP is much more than fuel, it allows you to change (mostly everything). When having that ability you have to know that when you change field A it can affect fields B and C, and how it is going to affect those fields. You also need to know that when you change field B what changes also need to be made to field A.
Again I have been seeing people street tuning for knock. I can understand if you got HP hooked it up and your car had knock and you turned down timing advance until it did not knock (that would be safe). What is killing me is people are tuning timing advance up until they get knock, then turn it down just enough until not more knock appears. You could still have way too much timing advance. How do you know what you are now set at is correct? By AFR's???? Everyone I have talked to about this (Non J-Body people) have stated the only real way to tune timing advance is on a dyno. I would also like to hear Protomec comment on this as well to see what he says.
FU Tuning
John gets it, Rodimus doesn't . Plain and simple.
This isn't a numbers changing game where you watch the AFR's and the knock sensor. Clearly if that's how you've tuned the car Rodimus then you really DON'T know what you're doing. Also, life is a lot simpler when you have a GM reflash to start with. Try tuning a boosted car with rpm vs. tps.
At the end of the day, its that mentality that creates $hitty tunes and kills cars. I guess I shouldn't care it's not my car but it's the same way most J-body owners knock all the other products on the market that are made available for them - they don't know what the @*(_ they are doing and they try to use it, break stuff and then proclaim the product is garbage.
Rodimus, I'd love to see you dyno that tune, hand your car to a real tuner for 3-4 hours on a dyno and then get the car back and compare.
Any asshat can change a few #'s. It takes years of experience and knowledge to truly tune a car. All you've done is digitally bandaid your setup using the stock PCM instead of 4 to 5 add-on's.
Good luck man but I hope you don't pooch that motor.
-Chris-
-Sweetness-
-Turbocharged-
Slowly but surely may some day win this race...
I havent messed with the timing advance as I havent read up on it enough, Im curious though what these real tuners or whatever go by if they are ignoring AFRs and knock, what are they checking spark plugs or something
Are they sniffing the air, or listening to the engine?
Thats the stupidest response ive seen, anyone that doesnt look at a wideband to tune, shouldnt be
I find my best results come from drag strip data logs, its flat and allows me to top out each gear safely without running over ppl on the highway, I fail to see how you MUST have a dyno to tune anything
Also a GM Eco reflash is not editable by HP tuners, so why would I want one
The stock ecotec computer is very boost friendly, you dont need to make gigantic changes to make a car run right AFR with larger injectors, I think those of you with 2.4s have a misunderstanding of how easy it really is
1989 Turbo Trans Am #82, 2007 Cobalt SS G85
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I havent messed with the timing advance as I havent read up on it enough, Im curious though what these real tuners or whatever go by if they are ignoring AFRs and knock, what are they checking spark plugs or something
I never said you have adjusted your timing, but others have. I also never said ignore AFR's, but there is more than one part to tuning.
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I find my best results come from drag strip data logs, its flat and allows me to top out each gear safely without running over ppl on the highway, I fail to see how you MUST have a dyno to tune anything
Drag strip does work, but a drag strip will not show you 1 hp differences. A dyno will. Correct me if I'm wrong but the purpose to tuning is getting the most HP safely out of your motor? You can show a increase on the track, but you can see more on the dyno.
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The stock ecotec computer is very boost friendly, you dont need to make gigantic changes to make a car run right AFR with larger injectors, I think those of you with 2.4s have a misunderstanding of how easy it really is
Not sure hwo that is directed at, but I'm not misunderstanding nothing. From your post you have stated your just messing with Fuel, and that is only one part. I'm sure I could figure out the fuel part as well, but the timing is just as important (sometimes more).
FU Tuning
Timing is actually more important.
And Rodimus... the stupidest statement you've heard? Tuners use EGT's, AFR's, knock, and POWER RESULTS on the DYNO to tune.
There is NO other way to do it right.
Clearly I'm not gonna get through your thick skull and I really don't care to try. Obviously you know waht you're doing since you were apparently tuning against a BAD wideband as you reported. If you were on a dyno you would have seen that fast, ditto with EGT's. But you didn't and you tuned half blind with far too much faith in "changing numbers".
Way to know what the hell you're talking about.
Once again, over-zealous J-body owners professing something is easy while they F#ck it up.
-Chris-
-Sweetness-
-Turbocharged-
Slowly but surely may some day win this race...
The biggest advantage to a dyno is REPEATABILITY. A drag strip is close, but there are still going to be traction and tempertaur and other differences on run to the next, a dyno is going to remain almost constant with temperature and traction and load put into the engine as it is not dependent on weight in the car (ever run uses gas decreasing the vehicle load).
A dragstrip is easy, and close, but a dyno is the true easiest way to do it for the repeatability. That is why you do it on a dyno.
That answer your question as to why a dyno?
Back on topic here, Why do you recommend HP TUNERs, not why you do what you do.....
For the record my wideband guage was faultly not the sensor as i suspected, not the 5v output which is dead on, and I wouldnt havent seen @!#$ because the tailpipe sniffers at the dyno are about as accurate as putting your thumb in the air and feeling the wind, some of us are required to keep cats also for emissions so a tailpipe sniffer can NEVER be accurate on my car
Not everyone can rent a dyno for an entire day and spend 1000, so the dragstrip is the closest i can get and honestly the difference is so minute the 2hp doesnt really matter to me, and when someone else reaches 94,000 miles on a boosted ecotec, they can question whether what I do will kill the motor, wait a minute nobody else has
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Thursday, August 10, 2006 9:07 AM
1989 Turbo Trans Am #82, 2007 Cobalt SS G85
/me bows to rodimus king of tuners...
LE61T PTE6262 Powered 
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the tailpipe sniffers at the dyno are about as accurate as putting your thumb in the air and feeling the wind, some of us are required to keep cats also for emissions so a tailpipe sniffer can NEVER be accurate on my car
There, you see? Now you have a perfect example of why, and how, tuning is not just punching numbers in a box and pressing enter. The catalytic converter is not anywhere near as effective when the AFR gets rich. In fact, as the mixture gets richer and the exhaust temp drops, the converter "shuts off." Think about this for just a second. The latest round of Eco powered J's stay in closed loop even at WOT. Why would GM do this? Why???? It's not for mileage since EPA mileage testing isn't done at WOT. It's not for reliability as the tune can be adjusted to reduce power. It's for emissions reasons! That's it! And if the converter was effective with a rich mixture then GM would have NO REASON to maintain open loop at WOT.
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Tuners use EGT's, AFR's, knock, and POWER RESULTS on the DYNO to tune. There is NO other way to do it right.
There is more to tuning than WOT.
-->Slow
Slowolej... I agree. For me the hardest part of tuning that turbo 2.2 wasnt WOT but the other driveability factors. There is a whole land of opportunity between idle and WOT that needs to be dealt with and it threw its hiccups and bumps at me... I still have a lot more smoothing to do with it but at least now it drives reasonably well and safely.
The problem is most ppl are using HPT now for WOT and injector constant, that's it. I don't think I'm gona get to WOT tuning for my car for at least a week as i drive around and datalog... the most important part to me is the low throttle and low RPM to midrange driving.
*thumbsup*
Regardless, AFR's aren't everything, but it seems to be all that most ppl seem to care about.
-Chris-
-Sweetness-
-Turbocharged-
Slowly but surely may some day win this race...
)
