Alright guys i got into an accident and my 1/4 panel is jacked up now. I already went to a salvage yard and bought a new 1/4 panel but my question is what are my options for removing/installing it on my vehicle. Is it a bolt on part? I seached and saw that some suggested welding was the only way but i also read that there is a "bonding adhesive" that shops use. Not sure but I hope you guys can clarify this for me.
you will have to remove the back window,1/4 window,trunk lid,rear bumper,tail lamp and a few misc little things. i have never heard of "bonding adhesive" for installing them, im sure thats just used as a sealant. the new 1/4 panel will need to be welded in by a body shop. it is not a bolt on part by any means. the 1/4 panel from the wreckers will probably need prep too, when i was dismantling cars the 1/4 panel included the rocker &post, half the roof and a lot of excess steel.
you should post a pic, the 1/4 might be repairable, which would be a lot cheaper then replacing it.
a lot of J-bodys are declared a "total loss" when there hit in the 1/4 because there expensive to replace (at least in Ontario)
hope this helps you out, if you need any more info let me know.
http://registry.gmenthusiast.com/images/my2005cav/my%20car%20the%20bash.jpg
DO NOT WELD IT ON. Heat from welding, even tack welding, can warp the thin coke can that is the J body. My neighbor does paint and body and just replaced the driver's side quarter panel on a 2004 Sunfire after it got hit. Cav may be different, but we didn't pull the back glass, only the side glass. We used 3M Automix 8115 Panel Bonding Adhesive and that's it on the rear quarter. Stuff is like $50, but you have to have the applicator as well which looks like a specialty caulk gun. Neighbor already had that so I don't know how much it runs. The adhesive gives you some working time to shift the panel around if needed, then just clamp it down with vise grips or small c-clamps and after 24 hours it's fully cured. The bond created by this stuff is stronger that the metal itself.
ohvrolla wrote:DO NOT WELD IT ON. Heat from welding, even tack welding, can warp the thin coke can that is the J body. My neighbor does paint and body and just replaced the driver's side quarter panel on a 2004 Sunfire after it got hit. Cav may be different, but we didn't pull the back glass, only the side glass. We used 3M Automix 8115 Panel Bonding Adhesive and that's it on the rear quarter. Stuff is like $50, but you have to have the applicator as well which looks like a specialty caulk gun. Neighbor already had that so I don't know how much it runs. The adhesive gives you some working time to shift the panel around if needed, then just clamp it down with vise grips or small c-clamps and after 24 hours it's fully cured. The bond created by this stuff is stronger that the metal itself.
Uhhh... rear 1/4's NEED to be welded in... anyone who knows what they're doing can get it done without warping... a simple "panel bond" or anything will NOT hold up permanently
The metal will rip before you break the bond Automix 8115 creates.
If you don't believe me click here for info on
Automix 8115. Please note that the primary use is to replace quarter panels, roofs, box sides, van sides, utility vehicle sides and door skins. Now if the OP got the 1/4 panel from a salvage yard I'd say a lot will depend on how it was removed, but if you buy an oem quarter and cut the old one off with an air chisel at the seams the Automix is THE way to go.
ohvrolla wrote:If you don't believe me click here for info on Automix 8115. Please note that the primary use is to replace quarter panels, roofs, box sides, van sides, utility vehicle sides and door skins. Now if the OP got the 1/4 panel from a salvage yard I'd say a lot will depend on how it was removed, but if you buy an oem quarter and cut the old one off with an air chisel at the seams the Automix is THE way to go.
Ok smarty pants... click on that link you gave me and click on the tab under the product that says "Product Documentation". Now, click on the second one down that says "3M automix panel bonding adhesive, PN08115 data sheet PDF". Now, scroll down to where it says "Handling and application information".
Now... under where it says "quarter panels" it says specifically:
Quote:
Quarter panels : Adhesive should be applied to the lower edge, the
wheel opening, the door jamb areas of the quarter and at the factory
seam of the C pillar. The rear vertical portion of the quarter should be
welded, as well as the C pillar if you have butt joints.
Under that is even a little picture of where to weld.
You don't have to weld. I've had first hand experience with Automix and you haven't. Simple as that. If it was the other way around I probably would be skeptical too, but you're not going to be able to change my mind about what I've seen with my own eyes. Only thing I see where welding is necessary is the reference to butt joints, but the Sunfire oem quarter there were no butt joints. Everything overlapped and no welding required. The cav quarter should be the same. I don't know why this seems so far out, and the truth be known you could probably jb weld the thing on being that it's just a panel and not for structural support.
I will make sure to keep everyone updated and let you know when the quarter falls off due to our "inferior" use of Automix over welding.
well if i needed a quarter panel replaced and somone used the "bonding" method i would sure as hell laugh at them. yes it may work for a short time, but its not the RIGHT way. to many people jury rig @!#$, and thats how you widn up with an 04 cavalier that is totally trashed compared to somones 01 that does things right..... anyway do what you want, but when your quarter panell falls off dont come crying to the org....
Well this is just my opinion, but alot of the auto manufacturers are using panel bonding adhesive now-a-days. I know this because I go to I-Car classes and have to pay shops for panel bonding adhesive ( i write for an independent appraisal company for over 100 insurance companies) most companies are using panel bonding adhesive because there is less chance of rust forming in the areas used and it is just as strong if not stronger than a weld. When selecting a quarter panel or even a bedside for a truck in my estimating software it will ask me if it is a welded on part or a adhesive part (due to labor diff). But that is just what I know. Hope it helps.
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2577397
Gee Mike, would you laugh if I told you that Automix 8116 meets GM 6449G specifications for metal to metal bonding, or did you even know that GM condones the use of panel bonding adhesives for panel replacement. I guess they don't mind jury rigging in you non professional opinion. Either the 8115 or 8116 will have a lap shear strength of over 2000 psi. If your quarter panel sees that much force it's gonna look worse that the front of your car does right now.
ohvrolla wrote:You don't have to weld. I've had first hand experience with Automix and you haven't. Simple as that. If it was the other way around I probably would be skeptical too, but you're not going to be able to change my mind about what I've seen with my own eyes. Only thing I see where welding is necessary is the reference to butt joints, but the Sunfire oem quarter there were no butt joints. Everything overlapped and no welding required. The cav quarter should be the same. I don't know why this seems so far out, and the truth be known you could probably jb weld the thing on being that it's just a panel and not for structural support.
I will make sure to keep everyone updated and let you know when the quarter falls off due to our "inferior" use of Automix over welding.
Hmm.. says in your profile you're a maintanance mechanic... so when did you get into collision repair?
Also smart a$$, if you read what I said no where did I say to SOLELY use welding... I simply stated that using nothing but panel bonding when replacing a quarter panel on a vehicle is a very stupid idea... ESPECIALLY since EVEN IN THE PRODUCT USE AND SPECIFICATIONS IT SAYS to weld in certain areas, and apply the panel bond to the rest. I never stated it was inferior, I simply stated that using it ONLY with NO WELDING was a dumb move. I've NEVER seen a shop use ONLY panel bond and not at least tack weld the other areas.
Oh that's right... I'm just a dumb chick anyway who doesn't know anything of what she's talking about
s eyes*
ohvrolla wrote:Gee Mike, would you laugh if I told you that Automix 8116 meets GM 6449G specifications for metal to metal bonding, or did you even know that GM condones the use of panel bonding adhesives for panel replacement. I guess they don't mind jury rigging in you non professional opinion. Either the 8115 or 8116 will have a lap shear strength of over 2000 psi. If your quarter panel sees that much force it's gonna look worse that the front of your car does right now.
You show me anywhere it says where GM states that THAT particular panel bond is reccomended and meets specifications for quarter panel replacement and that they recommed NOT welding anything AT ALL on that quarter panel... ONLY using that panel bond and nothing else at all... and I'll be done.
oh yeah i might add...
If you notice when you take the quarters off... there IS welding there... do you think they would weld the quarter panels in for no reason knowing (since GM apparently approves of this panel bond)... do you think they'd weld for no reason if they didn't have to?
The welds are there for a reason...
^^The factory welds are probably there because they are quicker. I've never seen or used the Automix. Ive always welded and been around people who welded, but I'm not gonna doubt that the bonding method works just as good if not better.
it should be welded. if you know how to weld you will not warp the metal. the only way it wraps is if you heat up the area too fast hence why when you weld you alternate welds from one side to the other
Jason Gearhart wrote:Ok.... well I see you guys still haven't figured this out. maybe this will help you out. Per GM repair guidelines you can use the adhesive for outer panels only (1/4 panels, door skins and even roof replacement) but it cannot be used for structural parts.
GO HERE http://www.gmgoodwrench.com/gmgoodwrenchjsp/gmspo/Hummer/H3/2006-2007/08_Metal_Panel_Bonding.pdf
Yes but the point still remains that even in that link it says:
Quote:
Always follow the system manufacturer's instructions for application, handling, and curing.
And in that particular panel bond that has been mentioned, it says specifically that on 1/4 panels you are supposed to weld part of the quarter and bond the rest. So it still doesn't rule out all welding.
I've always welded everything. Like bagged said, if you alternate tacks and use the right heat setting, there will be little to no warping.
Fallen Angel wrote:oh yeah i might add...
If you notice when you take the quarters off... there IS welding there... do you think they would weld the quarter panels in for no reason knowing (since GM apparently approves of this panel bond)... do you think they'd weld for no reason if they didn't have to?
The welds are there for a reason...
The weld is there because a robot on an assembly line is doing it. If the OP knew how to weld thin sheet metal or put quarters on do you think he would have even asked. Sounds like he's trying a diy fix otherwise he'd let the paint and body man decide. That's the biggest reason for suggesting bonding the quarter on. How many of you are going to go help get the quarter straight if he warps the shlt out of it. If he is taking it to a paint and body shop then I don't know why he asked. A quarter can be clamped into place and tacked with a seam sealer put on afterwards without damage, but I wouldn't trust the OP to do this. I would trust him with Automix or Fusor, although the prep work needs to be done as per instructions. See, I'm trying to help the guy.
Fallen Angel it looks like you're a 911 dispatcher according to your profile so what the h3ll does it matter that my day job is a maintenance mechanic, unless it shows proficiency with mechanical, hydraulic, pnuematic, and electrical repair in addition to fabricating as opposed to answering a phone. I'd rather not take cheap shots though. Do I think you know something about paint & body? I believe so from what I've seen on this forum. Would I trust you to weld on a quarter panel? Probably, so I don't care if you're a dispatcher. Doesn't mean you can't paint a car.
Jason it looks like you're the only one to have heard of the mysterious panel bonding. Welcome to the 21st century.
ON WITH THE PICS!!!
The car we used Automix on was my dad's GF's Sunfire. Please disregard the black spot in the shot on the sail panel, maybe I've got a dirty lens. Also note the fiberglass car being worked on. I know it's just a regular shop Bubba (it's a nickname, don't even know his real name and he's been across from my house for 10 years or so!) has, but the quality of work speaks for itself when people bring in cars like this. Car was rolled and in a few differents pieces, which is why I don't understand people bltching about fiberglass body kits. Pretty hard to make fiberglass unrepairable in case of an accident. If everyone would like I can do weekly updates on the status of the quarter panel. Now I know and James should too that the only way that quarter is coming off is with heat applied at the seams. I wouldn't even try removing it with an air chisel.
ok first off leave her alone newbie she was a body fender tech for years , now iam going to clear up allot of this mess ---------------on your car you can panle bond the 1/4 to the d-pillar only because of the design of the 1/4, in the wheel house and the trunk floor
ok so panle bond is also corrosion resistant!!! and it also has glass beads in it so you do not clamp to hard for the material will fail and you will not have the bond on the metal
but!!!, resistant spot welding can also be done with panle bond did anyone here know that???? well it`s true, the resistant spot welder works with the panle bond trust me i do it I-CAR has a class on it,iam I-CAR gold certified in welding, resistant spot welding, and the 3m panle bond we use at work we all do it so there is alittle tip for ya
ok so every car on the road, is panle bonded and resistant spot welded, by the d-pillar and the rocker panle is a laser welded seam, so did ya guys also know that you never ever put a 1/4 on a car by the laser welded seam??? did ya know that you stay 4-to 6 inches away from the seam, how do you where it is??? experince when you cut one off and you see the seam then ya know from now on to cut the 1/4 off lower-----but anyway-------------------so moving right along, so now the car is disassembled, glass removed, the car is prepped------all panle bond removed, all caulk removed, all mating surfaces hammered and dollied and cleaned and the wedl through primer is applied
and the new panel is also ready the inside was cleaned with a plastic coated disc, holes were drilled, do ya know the maxium size for a spot weld??? no bigger then 5/16!!, now fit the panle cut the panle down to fit the d-pillar, now you have choices for welding at the d-pillar----------------butt weld--open butt weld with backing-----open butt----or lap weld, i personally do the open butt with backing, i take some old metal and drill 5/16 holes in the d-pillar 3 of them and weld the plate to the d-pillar and drill 3 more on the new panle bascially it is a sleeve---------why???? I-CAR wants us to do that weld for added strenght, do the same at the rocker
so now you will dry fit the new panle re-install the deck lid, and all weather stripping, and bumper, get gaps sheet metal screw the panle to the car, the holes will serve as guides when you are ready to re-install the panle, now your ready apply panle bond to the outer wheel house, and the trunk floor and also to the new panle, re-install the panle, clamp screw it on and do some tack welds to hold in it place
just remember panle bond has glass beads in it so don`t clamp to hard!!!!!
now junk yard 1/4`s are whole different discussion
mercedes bmw all panle bond the trunk floors to the frame rails, every car on the road is welded, resistant spot welded and panle bonded
so i hope this cleared up allot of mess
can i haz bondo
Big Daddy I know she knows about paint and body and said so, but that was childish of her to take a stab at me because I'm a maintenance mechanic. In my profession I deal with things everyday with a lot greater importance and skill level (definately greater welding skill) than putting a quarter panel on so that's pretty lame to throw around the newb card without knowing anything about someone other than their join date. I've also said a lot depended on the quarter, and in an earlier post made reference to the fact it was coming from a junkyard. We waited til we got the new one to cut off the old one, but every joint on it is overlapped so it was panel bonded on. What kills me is the remarks about how the quarter is gonna fall off without knowing how much force it would actually take. Since you're I-car certified in all aspects let me ask you a hypothetical question. If I was to attach, I don't know maybe a chain somehow to the quarter panel and the other end to a trailer hitch and pulled on the quarter til it came off how much damage do you think would be done to the unibody?
Quarter panel on the Sunfire took a side impact that wouldn't have been enough to knock a bonded quarter panel off, and the quarter still had to be replaced. Let's face it, if you get hit in the rear you've probably totaled out a J-body. The steps you listed sound great and I'm pretty sure it's stronger, but in the end in won't matter. The quarter isn't going to fall off and if it takes a good hit it will most likely have to be replaced anyway.
ohvrolla> ok... first I got smart with you because when I said (and anyone who comes in here knows I did auto body and paint for YEARS... one of the very cars I painted on the org was in 2 small domestic mags and used as an example of the special paint product on THE paint company web site.... anyone who comes in here at all knows I know what I'm talkling about. If i'm not sure, I'll say to ask big daddy. I don't answer things I'm not sure on.... thank you.
secondly, you recanted against me saying to NOT USE JUST THE PANEL BOND and to weld also, by linking me to the product page which even said you needed to weld certain areas... so you just contradicted yourself.
Thirdly, you argued with me in saying that you... the allmight high superior one that you are... had used this stuff before and ASSUMED that I had never worked with it before... and saying "well I have first hand experience with this stuff and you don't... so that means I know what i'm talkling about and your statements irregardless of the knowledge of auto body and paint you have mean crap"... not knowing or even asking if I'd used the stuff before.
Fourth, this is an auto body question, and I simply pointed out to you that your occupation was maintanace mechanic. Just because you've worked with the stuff doesn't certify you to work withti that stuff on a car and mean that you know what you're talking about. You're the one who was arguing with me and acting like I didn't know what the hell I was talking about... which is what prompted my "cheap shot". You were being the ignoramous here first man... even big daddy said (and he has been doing auto body and such even longer than me) said to weld in addition to panelbonding. Now since a man came in here and basically said the same thing I was saying but just added more detail to it... you want to cry like a little kid and act like "oh well she started it" waaaaaaa!!!!... then you say "i'd rather not take cheap shots"...but you did.
For your information there, I did auto body/collision repair/paint for almost 6 years until I blew my knee out... hence why I took the job as a 911 dispatcher... (which I need to update I'm not there anymore) My knee wouldn't allow me to do that kind of work anymore, but it doesn't mean I sttill don't remember every freaking thing I was taught and still know what the heck I am talking about.
Fifth, THERE ARE WELDS FOR A FREAKING REASON!!!!! I don't care how strong any panel bond stuff is... it's not going to be NEARLY as strong as mixing that with welding. Believe it or not, if you took two cars, one with quarters panel bonded on and nothing else, and one that was both panel bonded and welded... which do you think is going to do a better job protecting some of the structure of the vehicle and the occupants inside?? One you just stick on with panel bond is not going to hold up as well as one panel bonded and welded.... period. And, while the quarters are not the most important part of the car's stable structure, every part of the car that is involved in the impact does it's part, no matter how small, in it's safety. Everything that is hit in a collision absorbs energy... if that quarter cannot absorb energy as well as one welded and panel bonded instead of just panel bonded... that's going to cause more damage to the other parts who are going to receive some of the crash energy next... etc.... etc.....
Is it likely it'll make that HUGE of a diffeerence? Maybe not... depends on the situation... but it CAN have an affect.
sixth, do youself a favor and make sure you ACTUALLY READ my whole post... because several times you came out like an arse because you read right over most of what I said, even when I mentioned whaat you were arguing with me over previously.
AND THANK YOU BIG DADDY!! 
Now on that note... anyone have anything else smart arsed to say??? Jason Gearhart??? ohvrolla??? anything else smart arsed to say??? Sorry... I was trying to give the CORRECT information when it came to the OP's post... and all the assenine comments and "mr. know it all" comments, and the stab at me (<sarcasm>geee thanks for that btw</sarcasm>
... and my mom almost dying in a car wreck the other night... I have no patience at the moment for attitudes. You want to talk to me like a human being... that's cool, I'll respect that and show the respect in return. You want to be a douchenozzle... I'll be a b*tch right back...
human being and being respectful.... or the other option... you choose...
she is correct welding and panle bonding is ALLOT stronger then just panel bond it`s self, THE @!#$IN FACTORY DOES IT FOR A REASON!!!!!
try putting a 1/4 on a mercedes or a bmw or any other car on the road other then a cavy or sunfire, you won`t be so god damn cocky then, take a I-CAR class for adhesives/bonding, welding, and resistant spot welding, do our job for 1 yr then ya might have some respect for us and our trade
in the 15 yrs in this trade i have never seen a panle that was just bonded on the inner structure, everything is resistant spot welded and bonded
but again it is very hard to teach anything online my post was just trying to show newbies the correct way to use panle bond and welding
and yes you are a newbie when you have 5-6 or even 15 yrs as a body man then i or she will give the respect but until that happens you are a newbie
can i haz bondo
