I’m sure you all remember the scene in Fahrenheit 9-11 where Moore tries to make the case that the Military preys on minorities in it’s recruiting practices.
I wrote extensively about this a while back and showed Moore’s deception in the way he portrayed the issue.

Well, today figures were just released showing that elistment in the Military among black citizens is down 41% since 2000. Where once the Military was recruiting about 23.5% of it new members from the black community, today only about 13.9% of the new recruits are black. A new article in the The Daily Press reports;


"It’s alarming,” said Maj. Gen. Michael D. Rochelle, commander of the Army Recruiting Command at Fort Knox, Ky., and one of the Army’s most senior black officers. He said no single factor explained the drop. But clearly, he said, the propensity of black youths to enlist is affected by the war and increasingly by views of parents, teachers, coaches, clergy and other “influencers."Whaddya think, is Moore one of those influencers? I can’t say for certain, but I have a hunch.

Either way, apparently, ( as if we didn’t know it before) he is wrong that this war is being fought by a majority of poor black rectuits. No, he didn’t say that specifically, but he did lead the discussion that way and many people have said it for him

.....(In the film), Michael Moore takes you on a recruiting mission with two Marine recruiters, and you actually witness how they prey on poor communities like vultures, while admitting that their recruitment has yielded naught in the provinces of the Plutocrats, the injustice of it all becomes crystal clear. Hell no they won’t go! Never mind that they own the country, they ain’t prepared to fight to maintain their dominion over the rest of the world. That’s for the poor ignorant slobs who believe they are going overseas to fight for freedom. The film is chock full of revelations like this.The film is chock full of something indeed.

your point? so black recruiting is down, big deal. i don't know @!#$ aboot micheal moore but i would like to know if he served even one single day in the military. BTW what are the statistics for all recruits in the military, is the black percentage highest or not, is it not safe to assume the military is "preying" on whatever group is recruited the most?

how can you "prey" on a voulenteer army, if someone doesn't want to sign up they say no. recruiters are gonna go to places to try to recruit that worked before, ie if going to mall A worked to get 25 recruits, but mall B only gets 5 recruits, then why would they go to mall B
blacks, white, purple, we all join because we want to, not because were forced to, you can't prey on voulenteers


You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan

(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)

Rollin wants to bash on a director because he misses the point of a film.

Either way, you enlist, and if someone is willing to, it doesn't matter what colour they are... they choose. If you think they're preying on Black people, you probably have some sort of complex regarding race. Moore was pushing that they went to Black neighbourhoods to recruit because they are in dire enough circumstances that they enlist because it's a ticket out of where they're at.

Rollin: here's an idea... get acquainted with how a black person is raised in the USA. I mean the ones from poorer areas.. they don't see the military as a place to find steady employment, a decent training opportunity or anything like that... it's a way to get out of where you're at. Then, before you start making it out that Moore is telling every black person that is thinking of enlisting to stop, understand that black troops in Vietnam had it pretty bad.. bad enough to tell their kids to not enlist in a white-man's army, and then parlay that down another generation. If you're going to look down on people that tell you to not go into the military if you don't have to, you better look at everyone involved.

BTW, IIRC, Moore actually was in the army reserves, but I'm not certain of that... Either way, if he was, and finished his commitment, it puts him on a higher moral ground than some whitehouse dwellers, if not, at least he didn't start something he wasn't going to finish.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

yes, it's a ticket out of a horrible life to gain a steady job, a trade skill, and a retirement plan after 20 years....... someone want to tell me how this is a bad thing? you know, helping people help themselves?...bad thing, right? LOL

ToBoGgAn wrote:your point? so black recruiting is down, big deal. i don't know @!#$ aboot micheal moore but i would like to know if he served even one single day in the military. BTW what are the statistics for all recruits in the military, is the black percentage highest or not, is it not safe to assume the military is "preying" on whatever group is recruited the most?

Hey man, Im in the military and I know the U.S. doesnt prey on minorities as Moore tried to portray in his movie.


GAM.....I am very well acquainted with military blacks. Im in the military sitting in Baghdad, Iraq right now. What was the point of Farenheit 911 that I missed? Have you also watched Farenhype 911? I have seen both because I wanted to be balanced and not just see one or the other. The majority of his "facts" in Farenheit got wiped off the table.

While Moore twisted and distorted over 40 "facts" in his movie. The one thing that does come out. Citing the above stats. 17% of the US population is of African descent, while 25% of military recruits (former) were. That shows disproportionate distribution of recruits. Do you think that may say something about the economic demographics, as a minimum? There is something to look at there, the question is, are they targeted?


PAX

Seriously, what does it matter the percentage of blacks in the military is higher than the percentage of blacks in the U.S.? Its all voluntary

it's all about the economic demographics. Recruiters go after the poor because they have the most to gain from joining.

The only time i have ever been approached by a recruiter was when i was taking the trash out at my old fast food job. He was real pushy about earning better money yada yada yada until i told him that this was only a 2nd job and my first job i earned 10+ (this was like 5 years ago) at my other job.

Long story short, as soon has he found out that i could make decent money myself, and that my only benifit would be the pride of joining the military, he left me alone, and probably drove over to the next fast food place



Promise that forever we will never get better at growing up and learning to lie

Niceguy4186 " Recruiters go after the poor because they have the most to gain from joining" YOUR AN IDIOT! you should just burry yourself alive, and do earth a favor.


FIRST OF ALL, i was a recruiter in the marine corps for 3 years, so i will tell you recruiting is done, it is SALES point blank... get out of your mind, color, sex, religon, anything. the military is "selling" a product, " a way of life"
SECOND, recruiting offices are astablished based on town population, not the aformentioned, color, sex, religon. then based on PROPENSITY TO ENLIST BY HIGHSCHOOL AREA NOT "race, sex, religion, or wealth, the highschool sr. class years previous dictate were recruiting efforts are planned, IT ALL REVOLVES AROUND H.S. SR'S. then "idle" time throughout the day, when not interviewing a kid, or meeting with parents, or doing something in a school we would "area canvass" now let me ask you this. i have a job to do, so am i going to wate my time, and go places where kids are less abt to talk with me, or am i going to go the places kids are more abt to talk with me? and duh! if kids aren't talking with me, htf! am i going to spark an interest in joining, remember, sales here..it all revolves around contact with potential customers, aka kids who will enlist,
as a recruiter, i did my monthly planning based entirely on school size, target market, on the 1st of the month, i could tell you exactly where i would be, wich school (having 8) covering 120 miles west to east anlong I-70, and while i was in those school areas i would "canvass" the local area for "qualified looking people" to talk with.. not OH! A BLACK KID, LETS GET HIM! thats retarded, NOW! i never said i liked recruiting, however it is a nesissary evil, do some recruiters lie, YES but it is usually more not ever letting the applicant hear anybad things, wich duh! there is, so the kid themseles painta a fanyasy picture, the recruiter, simply doesn't burst it... the army is the worst about that, most kids i dealt with, knew, the marine corps is down and dirty, so most were into the sacrifices, hell half the time, they were like "the i can be.... in the marines?" they didn't even realize that only about 1/3 is infintry, that the usmc has an airwing, all that.. so inconclusion, ANYONE WHO THINKS THE MILITARY TARGETS MINORITYS, OR THE POOR, IS RETARDED, better learn before you open your mouth, and look stupid to those who know.... and yes i wrote this quick, so i am sure there are spelling errors everywhere. but you get the gist

and one last thing, the greatest tools to a recruiter, are knowing who is disqualified, ie. thats why we give the ASVAB (military entrence test) in h.s's so WE KNOW WHO IS DISQUALIFIED because they can't add 2+2 so i can talk to those who are qualified, youd be surprised how we have DAMN NEAR EVERY kids name on a list, sorted by h.s. year grad so we can keep track when we talk to a kid, Niceguy4186 I HAVE 10 BUCKS THAT SAYS THE RECRUITER AFTER TALKING TO YOU, FIGURED YOU WERE DISQUALIFIED FOR ONE REASON OR ANOTHER... got your name, and "took you off his list" it is always funny when we would ask for a kids name, the kid would be like, ya, so you can call and hound me,, lmfao, hell no, because your retared, and i don't want to waste my time trying to call you! REMEMBER, I HAVE A LIFE, I DON'T WANT TO WORK 24/7 so i don't waste my time on kids,,, USE MY TIME WITH QUALITY APPLICANTS,,,

Rollin,

Can you please start sighting your sources where you are copying and pasting these "debates" from. I know at least 2 of the last ones you have posted are from Moorewatch.com


As for taking out of context Farenheit 911, the recruiters were assigned to an area in Flint, Flint just happens to be a very downtrodden city and like said earlier in this thread, they had more success at the "poorer" mall then the "rich" folk mall. Yes, Moore wanted us to beleive that they just do not go there but if anyone has the wool pulled over their eyes so tight that they cannot think for themselves and veleive everything the flickering box tells them is sadly mistaken and needs a reality check.

I have seen Farenhype 911 and it did nothing but TRY and debunk all the "lies" from Farenheit 911 and brought nothing really new to the table.

I admire the people that enlist in the volunteer army. I do not admire people that think because you are against the war then you are against the troops. I would like my cousin home asap, I would have loved him not to have gone at all, I do not feel that he is fighting for my freedom, in fact I KNOW he is not. Sorry but nothing is going to change my view on that point.

sirk798 . wrote:Niceguy4186 " Recruiters go after the poor because they have the most to gain from joining" YOUR AN IDIOT! you should just burry yourself alive, and do earth a favor.


FIRST OF ALL, i was a recruiter in the marine corps for 3 years, so i will tell you recruiting is done, it is SALES point blank... get out of your mind, color, sex, religon, anything. the military is "selling" a product, " a way of life"
SECOND, recruiting offices are astablished based on town population, not the aformentioned, color, sex, religon. then based on PROPENSITY TO ENLIST BY HIGHSCHOOL AREA NOT "race, sex, religion, or wealth, the highschool sr. class years previous dictate were recruiting efforts are planned, IT ALL REVOLVES AROUND H.S. SR'S. then "idle" time throughout the day, when not interviewing a kid, or meeting with parents, or doing something in a school we would "area canvass" now let me ask you this. i have a job to do, so am i going to wate my time, and go places where kids are less abt to talk with me, or am i going to go the places kids are more abt to talk with me? and duh! if kids aren't talking with me, htf! am i going to spark an interest in joining, remember, sales here..it all revolves around contact with potential customers, aka kids who will enlist,
as a recruiter, i did my monthly planning based entirely on school size, target market, on the 1st of the month, i could tell you exactly where i would be, wich school (having 8) covering 120 miles west to east anlong I-70, and while i was in those school areas i would "canvass" the local area for "qualified looking people" to talk with.. not OH! A BLACK KID, LETS GET HIM! thats retarded, NOW! i never said i liked recruiting, however it is a nesissary evil, do some recruiters lie, YES but it is usually more not ever letting the applicant hear anybad things, wich duh! there is, so the kid themseles painta a fanyasy picture, the recruiter, simply doesn't burst it... the army is the worst about that, most kids i dealt with, knew, the marine corps is down and dirty, so most were into the sacrifices, hell half the time, they were like "the i can be.... in the marines?" they didn't even realize that only about 1/3 is infintry, that the usmc has an airwing, all that.. so inconclusion, ANYONE WHO THINKS THE MILITARY TARGETS MINORITYS, OR THE POOR, IS RETARDED, better learn before you open your mouth, and look stupid to those who know.... and yes i wrote this quick, so i am sure there are spelling errors everywhere. but you get the gist

What the hell? How was anything I said different than what you explained? Maybe you misunderstood the meaning of “economic demographics” economic demographics has nothing to do with race. But difference races are spread differently throughout though.
“it all revolves around contact with potential customers, aka kids who will enlist” who is more likely to enlist? A person who is having a hard time putting food on the table working fast food job, or someone who has a full 4 years of college paid for by mommy and daddy?

Recruiters are based by population of the town huh, which town is likely to have more people? Suburbs where the average house is built on an acre of land, or the inner city where houses are built 10 feet apart? (might not have huge schools, but the schools will be two miles apart)

Going back to “it all revolves around contact with potential customers, aka kids who will enlist” That was your job, what was the average family income for new entries? What was your target market? You said it was a sales job, and every sales job has a target market…

And for the record, in high school, I made the mistake of checking some box saying I might be interested in the military, and I received multiple calls. And I’ll take that 10 bucks, the only way I was might have been disqualified is because I repeatedly straight out told them I did give it a lot of thought, and decided a military career wasn’t for me. On paper, i look like a great candidate.

So, remind me, why am i an idiot? why should i burry myself alive to do the world a favor?



Promise that forever we will never get better at growing up and learning to lie

Military recruiters are all over poor schools, which are predominantly black. but not seen at the campus of rich "white" schools. i see it all the time in my area. black recruitment is down as they probably dont want to go kill other brown people on the white mans orders. maybe hispanics and blacks are tired of fighting wars for rich white men?


What's cooler..than being cool?

well either you went to 2 schools at the same time, "to see the recruiters in the poor school, and not in the rich school" or your just full of @!#$, i bet #2 and ya, you must be right, i have no idea how it is to recruit in east st. louis area.. look up the stats on the economics in this area, so stfu. truth be told, sad fact is, the poorer communities aren't as worth allot of time, because they lack the ability to pass the asvab, you would just be amazed! the attation we give to e. stl h.s. VERY LITTLE! we only contact the kids that HAVE passed the asvab... thats about all we do, where as in all the other school, we contact all kids (who haven't been previously disqualified) SO IF ANYTHING we actually did the oposit... really makes ya wish that the us made military service manditory, would shut half the idiots up in this country, but then again, i wouldn't trust you all next to me.. so i am happy with the system, the real brave people step up, while you pussys sit back and complain...

ok, give me an honest answer, you know two guys, Same phyical build, same GPA, everything is exacly the same except for the fact that the first kid is dressed in nothing but A&F and driving a brand new Corvette while the other one is dressed in a Wendys uniform and driving an 1990 Geo metro. You know everything about there charactor is the same. due to time constrants, can only approach one... which one do you go up too? and why?

truthly answer that, and you will get my point.

and i agree, while it would do the nation's males good to be force to join the military for a short while, but economiclly, nationally, and stratigically, it would be stuipid to do.

For the record, i do work as a civilian on an air force base. My weekly poker game is constly changing people due to good friend getting deployed to iraq. I am by no means a pussy who is complaining. If my sidauration was different, i could very well have signed up out of high school, but i weighted out the pros and cons, and came up with that i could make the best of my life by not joining. If the military started offering tons more money a year, then yes, i would reconcider it... but until then, it's not worth my wild



Promise that forever we will never get better at growing up and learning to lie

there is no honest answer, it is wich ever person the recruiter "feels" is more aproachable, does one kid make eye contact, does one kid look away, does one do this, does one do that, is one working, is one eating, there are so many hypatheticles that play into who a recruiter aproaches, lmao, heres one you would never have thought of, do i have "my apoitments for tomarrow" contrary to belief, there is not a true quota aka "mision" for a recruiting station, what you going to never go home if your not enlisting enough kids, the quota is, are you "prospecting" enough, wich equates apointments, to interview kids, so back to the two kids, alot of times it boils down to, wich kid do i think i can get an apointment with that fits into my schedule in the next 48 hours, anyone who isn't a recruiter, can, and will never have a clue what goes into it, tell me the last time you worked 7 am till 10 or 11 at night, 6 days a week, for 3 years.. exactly, i, and many others do, why do you think, (can't remember the exact number) but the usmc hit it's service recruiting quota for 120 months consecutive, wich just ended, it is ethics, and hard work, @!#$y work at that...i hated it, but i will be damned if i will ever let anyone say it was done unethicly! GRANTED there are those that do....but as a hole, not even close... as far as the 2 recruiters eho choose the poor mall, answer me this.. did they have supported access to the rich mall, were the security guards enforcing the no sloiciting rule, were more kids in the poor mall at that time of day, ALWAYS REMEMBER, IF I AM NOT IN CONTACT WITH KIDS, I AM WASTING MY TIMEya, thats right, my time, when i have 3 apoitments for tomarrow, and have prospected enough for a days work, i can go home!, so tell me i wan to go to a mall i won't get the face to face contact to get the job done, thats just stupid

EastCoastBeast II wrote:yes, it's a ticket out of a horrible life to gain a steady job, a trade skill, and a retirement plan after 20 years....... someone want to tell me how this is a bad thing? you know, helping people help themselves?...bad thing, right? LOL

ECB: Most blacks that are from the US that I've had occasion to talk with tended to not want to join the military because they thought the Military worked at cross-purposes with their idealogy... Black man got no business being in a white-man's army.

They don't look at the benefits, because most know that they have to have some sort of skill to begin with in order to get into something other than basic infantry.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

sirk798 . wrote:well either you went to 2 schools at the same time, "to see the recruiters in the poor school, and not in the rich school" or your just full of @!#$, i bet #2 and ya, you must be right, i have no idea how it is to recruit in east st. louis area.. look up the stats on the economics in this area, so stfu. truth be told, sad fact is, the poorer communities aren't as worth allot of time, because they lack the ability to pass the asvab, you would just be amazed! the attation we give to e. stl h.s. VERY LITTLE! we only contact the kids that HAVE passed the asvab... thats about all we do, where as in all the other school, we contact all kids (who haven't been previously disqualified) SO IF ANYTHING we actually did the oposit... really makes ya wish that the us made military service manditory, would shut half the idiots up in this country, but then again, i wouldn't trust you all next to me.. so i am happy with the system, the real brave people step up, while you pussys sit back and complain...

oooh you're soooo badass.


What's cooler..than being cool?

SO now that I've acted like an ass, let me adress this more rationally. Of course the military enlists more minorities, as minorities tend to be less financially successful than their caucasian counterparts. But it really is a matter of $$$, not race. Look at our govt. Not a single member has a child in active service. Theres a reason. The military is comprised of middle class and mostly people from lower income backgrounds. Albeit, this current military is the best trained and most intelligent, which is relative, than any before.

My point is, if the politicians think it is so important and so meaningful, why dont they send any of their kids to die for it?


What's cooler..than being cool?

Niceguy4186 wrote:ok, give me an honest answer, you know two guys, Same phyical build, same GPA, everything is exacly the same except for the fact that the first kid is dressed in nothing but A&F and driving a brand new Corvette while the other one is dressed in a Wendys uniform and driving an 1990 Geo metro. You know everything about there charactor is the same. due to time constrants, can only approach one... which one do you go up too? and why?

truthly answer that, and you will get my point.

and i agree, while it would do the nation's males good to be force to join the military for a short while, but economiclly, nationally, and stratigically, it would be stuipid to do.

For the record, i do work as a civilian on an air force base. My weekly poker game is constly changing people due to good friend getting deployed to iraq. I am by no means a pussy who is complaining. If my sidauration was different, i could very well have signed up out of high school, but i weighted out the pros and cons, and came up with that i could make the best of my life by not joining. If the military started offering tons more money a year, then yes, i would reconcider it... but until then, it's not worth my wild

What AFB do you work at?

97icecold wrote:SO now that I've acted like an ass, let me adress this more rationally. Of course the military enlists more minorities, as minorities tend to be less financially successful than their caucasian counterparts. But it really is a matter of $$$, not race. Look at our govt. Not a single member has a child in active service. Theres a reason. The military is comprised of middle class and mostly people from lower income backgrounds. Albeit, this current military is the best trained and most intelligent, which is relative, than any before.

My point is, if the politicians think it is so important and so meaningful, why dont they send any of their kids to die for it?

They arent sending any kids to die. The military is a volunteer force. We all signed the dotted line. Is every single casualty a trajedy, yes. You can worry about us dying but dont use the casualties as an excuse to push your agenda. Its very offending. You also might want to take back your comment that no politicians have kids currently serving in Iraq. Get your facts straight before you make another michael moore comment like that.

U.S. Politicians with kids serving in Iraq

Rollin 24 wrote:

97icecold wrote:SO now that I've acted like an ass, let me adress this more rationally. Of course the military enlists more minorities, as minorities tend to be less financially successful than their caucasian counterparts. But it really is a matter of $$$, not race. Look at our govt. Not a single member has a child in active service. Theres a reason. The military is comprised of middle class and mostly people from lower income backgrounds. Albeit, this current military is the best trained and most intelligent, which is relative, than any before.

My point is, if the politicians think it is so important and so meaningful, why dont they send any of their kids to die for it?

They arent sending any kids to die. The military is a volunteer force. We all signed the dotted line. Is every single casualty a trajedy, yes. You can worry about us dying but dont use the casualties as an excuse to push your agenda. Its very offending. You also might want to take back your comment that no politicians have kids currently serving in Iraq. Get your facts straight before you make another michael moore comment like that.

U.S. Politicians with kids serving in Iraq

Very good, I stand corrected. But my argument is still valid, as that is 6/535 or 1.12%. But I am glad to see that these politicians stuck with their guns and did what they believed. Not bad.

Nowhere in my statement did I push an agenda or "use" casualties to support it. I posed a question, which in part of its foundation was wrong. I appreciate it being corrected.

I don't argue that the military is a volunteer force. But you are Americans, not just soldiers. I question the motives behind the use of the military which puts our citizens in harms way. If there are to be casualties, I want to know why and I don't want to be lied to or scared into thinking the force should be used. If life is to be lost, I expect there to be a good reason. In this case I do not believe, personally, that the cost vs what can be accomplished warrants the amount of death and destruction. Just my opinion.


What's cooler..than being cool?

Ok, I can accept that. I just get a little ticked when people are like but but but the soldiers are dying! Yes we know, we signed the dotted line so you dont have to.

No doubt. I have many familiy members who have served or currently are. I also nearly enlisted myself comming out of high school, army. SO I do respect our armed forces. But I simply question how and for what reason they are deployed. And the military strategy dreamed up by non military personel.

ALthough I did not, and dont, support the current Iraq war, our troops are there and failure is not an option. We have to stay their to stabilize the region. So as a soldier yourself, what needs to be done to win this thing, as it seems wildly out of control now with assasinations left and right. It seems to me we need many more troops on the ground and more armor. What is your take?


What's cooler..than being cool?