"Force With Force" (Sorry, I can't really find a better link)

Well, what does everyone think?




This reminds me of that South Park episode. You know, the one when the boys go hunting with Uncle Jimbo and Ned. "LOOK!!! It's coming right for us!"


"That black guy over there looks pretty threatening. I'm just gonna shoot that bastage."

I would like a better explanation of the law. I saw something about this on CNN last night and they said that if somebody was leaving your house after having broke you used to have to let him go (or at least not shot him) but now you can shoot. I may have misunderstood I wasn't really paying attention at the beginning of the story. I am all for self defence, as far as I thought you were allowed to use deadly force if you were in danger. Am I wrong? I guess I can see a good thing if you do kill somebody that in self defence you have a better chance of not being charged. The problem I see with this is people killing for possessions and not safety. I hate thrives as much as the next guy but do they really deserve to die for stealing a stereo?



AmazingJay

^^^^yes it is the principle of the thing.

Utter hypocrisy.. if you're going to aim at the guy, aim at his head, not the ankles... Give Jeb a reason to live again.

And, congratulations Florida, you've just succeeded in voting in the allowing of a new wave of well-armed, and nothing to lose criminals.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

no they havent........see you don't get it GAM.....criminals will always have guns, criminals will always be criminals, the more gun laws and anti-self-defense laws that get put in place, all they do is take the ability for the law abiding citizens to protect themselves, you cannot count on the police.......EVER. theyre worthless unless they happen to be driving by as you are getting mugged at gunpoint. like ive said before and its a quote from somewhere "when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns" that means that only the criminals will have guns, the law abiding citizens will get rid of them, because thats the law. I agree with this new law, and am appalled that it ever was any different, if you feel threatened, you should be able to do what is nessissarry to rid yourself of the threat. now by no means did i mean open fire, no, if you are walking through the park and someone makes you feel threatened, try to bypass them, go the other way, or if you have to, pull out your gun and tell them you want them to go away, escalation of force


You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan

(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)

Mike, put yourself in the position of the criminal, Would you leave a living witness or possible shooter?



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

^^^

Exactly. I'd just shoot you in the head from behind and not even give you a chance to "stick 'em up" if I thought you might open fire on me as I was running away with your wallet.

See, criminals, while not necessarily the smartest bunch, are usually bright enough to know that the average joe doesn't want to break the law and therefore probably won't be shooting back. Now that he can, would you give him the chance?

Probably not.

yeah but your average criminal is also a pussy, who doesnt have what it takes to shoot someone, usually its a punk kid out for a couple of bucks, so by you, being defensive and pullling your gun, will scare the crap out of him and make him run. if the guy is gonna shoot you and rob you, he will wether or not you have a gun, so its better to have a gun and not need one then need one and not have it.

What do you suggest people do to protect themselves GAM? pepper spray is garbage.......tazers are good, but a lot of places treat them like guns, running away, well you can't really run when someone has a weapon turned on you. the way I see it armed citizens are the only way to defend one self, all these other things are just an illusion of saftey


You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan

(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)

Mike: Seriously, WTF DO YOU KNOW ABOUT THE AVERAGE CRIMINAL? The Average criminal is not JUST some punk kid... Even if they were, then would you really rather them be strapped? I doubt it.

Armed citizenry is not something most people want because the average joe is stupider than a sack of hammers given the right provocation.. and the rest are dumer than that. Guns when needed prevent crime, sure... Shooting and killing someone in obvious retreat of your house and having license to do that is invitation for criminals to shoot first, ask questions later. That's a great idea, eh?

Tazers, pepper spray (you say its junk? Try a little Scotch Bonnet and cayenne smeared on your face, see how well you live through it, then multiply that by about 3000 for heat for mace and pepper spray... you'll sing a significantly different tune, chum) are DEFENSIVE weapons.. they do NOT kill when applied properly, and subdue a target long enough to allow police time to intervene and even flush the irritants if necessary. Nobody dies, and no one has to live with the idea that someone else will break in and do the deed before you get a chance to retaliate.





Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

and if someone violates my home or threatens me, tries to rob me i dont want them arrested or hurt, i want them dead. if you break in my home, i pull a gun and you run, im still gonna shoot, who the hell is he breaking into my house, F that, he's a dead man. the best defense is a better offense, you pull a knife, i shoot you with a gun, one less scumbag for the world to worry about

and like i keep saying, all gun laws do is take away our rights, if someoen is gonna do an armed robbery, they will get a gun, legally or otherwise, all gun laws do is hurt citizens.

you know, the first country to have this many gun laws was germany in the late 30's early 40's....just some food for thought....


You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan

(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)

every time i read about another law like this, i laugh louder when a little child gets shot, some mother loses her husband, a bunch of kids at school get shot.....
i cant wait until your kids get shot by the neighbours kids with their fathers "self defence" guns.
i'll be the guy laughing saying "hey, you wanted the guns.... now live with it and stop crying"

Actually Mike... Britain has had gun laws that forbid the carrying of pistols by all except law officers since the late 1800's.

If someone is in retreat, (with or without posessions) and you shoot them it's cold blooded murder, cut and dry. If they're leaving, you are no longer in danger, and you're shooting them because of some petulant and outmoded ideal of protecting the nest from about 20,000 years ago. Once they've quitted your house, the damage is already done, and at that point, you become the aggressor... what's next? An eye for an eye, Tooth for tooth?

Grow up, those ideals are hindering the rest of society.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

blurred wrote:every time i read about another law like this, i laugh louder when a little child gets shot, some mother loses her husband, a bunch of kids at school get shot.....
i cant wait until your kids get shot by the neighbours kids with their fathers "self defence" guns.
i'll be the guy laughing saying "hey, you wanted the guns.... now live with it and stop crying"

which would all be a non-issue if people would be more responsible with guns


You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan

(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)

Mike: are you starting to get why you should have licensing requirements like criminal checks and oh.... safety & maintenance courses with a minimum pass mark?

Everyone likes to think they're responsible gun owners, just like everyone likes to think they're good drivers too.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

i understand licencing and stuff, it is a dangerous weapon, i believe in responsibility to the responsible, your suggestions you just posted are great ideas.

see i had the impression that you want all guns banned and stuff like that, im sorry if i misinterpreted what you meant. no hard feelings

I think that even though gun ownership is a right in the constitution, you should have a license, it should have age limits, you should need a background check, current medical and mental exam on file, annual use and maintenance class. It does infringe on the right to bear arms, but in this day and age, it falls into responsibility to the responsible, if you want to own a gun you must prove your responsible.

now the extreme large caliber and full auto is always a hot debate item. gun haters say they have no purpose when gun lovers say that they do, i think full auto weapons are fun to shoot, but should have restrictions above and beyond the basic regulations for all guns, large caliber shouldn't matter, as long as you don't go over 50 caliber, at that point its not small arms anymore, then your getting into cannon territory, and with a gun like a 50 cal, there is a great sport called extreme long range target shooting, targets about a half mile out, im sure its fun, i could never hit something that far out


You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan

(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)

*damned no edit button* also when i talk about gun laws, i mean laws that ban specific gun types and laws that inhibit self defense, not registration or ownership laws, most of them are cool, except the stupid waiting periods


You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan

(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)

Did any of you actually look up the law? It does not say you can shoot someone who is running away. From what I have read, and heard, which could be wrong, but it says that one can meet "force with force." Florida used to be a retreat state which meant no matter what, unless in corner or other rare circumstance and with no escape, one could not use deadly violence. Now the person does not have to retreat, or leave the scene, one can stand and fight. For example, if a person was to be robbing your house, you would not have to run away, you could shoot them right away if they came at you. It says nothing about shooting someone in the back when they are leaving. It does not say, a person can shoot another person retreating, it says "force with force." I am not defending the law, just wanted to clear something's up. If I am totally off about my reading of the law, let me know, I have not been able to look at the whole thing yet. So I am going off of third party information and readings.

no, i didn't see the law, the only link posted about it wasn't very descriptive


You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan

(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)

Mike: I own rifles and just got a Colt 1911 from my dad (Part of my Grand-dad's collection).. I don't say that gun ownership is evil, but to be frank, I do not keep the weapons in my house, they're locked in my dept. issued storage locker at my gun range (Dunno if you've read, I work with the police, I'm not an officer, but I'm extended some priviledges) .

I know that there are a LOT of responsible gun owners, they are not the problem, the problem stems from those that are not responsible (ie, non-trigger locked weapons (There are quick release locks, so don't get your undies in a bunch), open to kids, storing munitions alongside weapons or worse, loaded weapons).

I also know from working in forensics that there are enough wackaloo's out there (and this is Canada, I can only think about what the FBI has to deal with) that they a: do not know what they're doing with a weapon, and b: are not in possession of sufficient self-control to know when to and when not to use force.

Now, the law Florida has enacted does allow you to meet force with force, you do not have to retreat... My reading of the law was askew, my apologies. However, giving chase is the problem, when the other guy turns tail, do you pursue in order to avail yourself of the person re-arming? The other thing is, this is not JUST extending to your house... it's blanketing... everywhere. It's akin to the Texas statute that justified homicide because the victim "needed" killing... ie. the victim may have seemed menacing at the time of the incident.. regardless of what really happened.

I don't think it's going to be shootout at the OK Corral time in the sunshine state, but the moment there IS an abuse of the law... or worse, an instance over looked, the law itself has opened the door... and unless I'm mistaken, another law is required to take down the originating law or ammendment.

I've collected a few links, but as yet, I've found nothing regarding the actual text of the law.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Seems I'm wrong... Googled "Law" instead of "Bill"... silly me.

Found the text of the legislation.

<a href=""http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/bills_detail.aspx?Id=15738&sBillNumberText=249&iSessionSelectedIndex=0&iChamberSelectedIndex=2>Linky</a>

The prefacing page actually glosses over the terms... you have to go to the Original text, and then read the Ammendments...

The original document is in PDF format <a href="http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/loadDoc.aspx?FileName=_h0249__.doc&DocumentType=Bill&BillNumber=0249&Session=2005">HERE</a>.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

ehh...sorry.....if someone breaks into my house i am going to shoot them. whether face to face, or while he is running away...if he is on my property he is fair game the exception might be if he is unarmed. but if the dude has a gun or any weapon he is toast. why? hes broken in...so what if he runs away? whats to stop him from breaking in again, only killing me this time? nothing can stop him from doing that...except by taking him out of the equation. harsh? yeah. but when youve been invaded to that point i cant imagine how you could let someone go.

Quote:

whats to stop him from breaking in again, only killing me this time?

Whats to stop anybody randomly walking on the street in front of your house from opening fire? Just because he broke in does not make him a murderer. What if it's some kid who is only doing it for some sort of dare(peer pressure)? The kid should be punished to the full extent of the law and maybe an extra kick in the ass, but does he really deserve to die? How would you feel having killing a 14 year old kid? Don't get me wrong if you are being or truly feel threatened use force, but killing someone "just in case" is murder, and killing because they took your DVD collection is even worse. You may claim an eye for and eye but thats more of an eye for a life.



AmazingJay

i am sort of with tabasco on this one, not for the same reasons though but close. given the opportunity yes i will shoot anyone that breaks into my house. not strictly because they broke into my house but because they lack the simple ability to respect others and are reckless in their actions. i will not take the chance that this person/s is actually "good hearted but misunderstood" with my children in the house. and i do not care if it is a 14 year old kid either.

and for those of you that accidentally tied you nuts in your drawers, i am not the guns blazing in the dark at whatever moves guy, i have had a little experience with guns so breathe;
in with the good, out with the bad

RoN mExIcO wrote:i am sort of with tabasco on this one, not for the same reasons though but close. given the opportunity yes i will shoot anyone that breaks into my house. not strictly because they broke into my house but because they lack the simple ability to respect others and are reckless in their actions. i will not take the chance that this person/s is actually "good hearted but misunderstood" with my children in the house. and i do not care if it is a 14 year old kid either.

and for those of you that accidentally tied you nuts in your drawers, i am not the guns blazing in the dark at whatever moves guy, i have had a little experience with guns so breathe;
in with the good, out with the bad

couldn't have said it better, thats what i was trying to say, just i have a lousy way with words



You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan

(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)

amazing jay: i said if they were unarmed that i most likely wouldnt shoot them. now if they came at me, even if it looks like they are unarmed im still gonna shoot them. i dont know what they are capable of or what they plan to do. i take anyone coming into my house as an INVASION of privacy, security and anything else. an invasion warrants defense and you cant defend without force.

and so what if it was a 14 year old kid that broke into my house?? do you think that person is any less capable of rape/murder/whatever else? they can do just as much in that regard. sure i could overpower them easier than a 30 year old person, but again if they are there and armed why waste time to figure out "hmm...looks like a 14 year old kid...i can probably overpower him"? thats not how its going to be.

Quote:

Whats to stop anybody randomly walking on the street in front of your house from opening fire?

the only thing that stops them from doing that is that own person...but i dont know whats going on in their head...whether they are there for my dvd collection or for my life. and i am not about to stop and ask them. regardless if you are a murderer or just a petty thief, you are aware of what can happen when you break into someones house. and because of that awareness i will always assume that you are breaking in for more than a dvd collection or the good china. no one, not even a crackhead low on cash is going to risk their life for some movies. now if the person has been subdued i am not about to shoot them in the head. but its going to be hard to subdue an armed aggressor w/o force.

Quote:

i will not take the chance that this person/s is actually "good hearted but misunderstood"

exactly!!! i feel that by not doing your damndest you are playing roulette with your life and the life of your family (and maybe countless others).

and just to let you know, i am NOT a "rootin' tootin' gun-toting redneck". i am quite civil and respect the law. but there are certain things that will not be tolerated.