The man tells the truth. This is the modern state of the once noble and respectable Republican party. This is not your grandpa's Republican party. There are still plenty of sensible Republicans out there, but you have lost control of your party to fringe lunatics and to people who have manipulated you and distorted what was once the conservative message until it isn't even recognizable anymore. You want a tea party? You want to retake America?... You might want to start by retaking your own party first.

Rebuild your party - instead of talking about evicting moderates(leaving only the extremists behind), you might be wiser to include those who have more in common with your traditional message than with the Democrat's own message. Your numbers are dwindled enough, you need more members, not fewer. Speaking of your traditional message - you might want to return to that instead of all this NEOCON garbage that we have today. The direction you have been heading in has been further and further to the fringes, leaving the Democrats to fill in the center - aka leaving the Liberals as the "voice of reason" against the radicals. Its ironic I know, but that's what happened and that's why you've got your asses kicked in the last 2 election cycles(you lost a hell of a lot more than the presidency in 2008 just like 2006 - and there are legitimate non-economy reasons for this - face it).

Now the Democrats have such total control that they may no longer need to listen to the voices of reason from the center - as they shift their party further left - it may be your time to fill that void. Or you can keep going as is and pretty soon the Republican party will be mentioned along side the Green party for notoriety. Granted, if you continue down your current path of self destruction, a 3rd party may well rise to fill the void. But once you are marginalized enough, it becomes a 2 party system once again - just without Republicans.

Some other priorities you might want to get in order - don't put "winning" or other political games ahead of principal. Do things the right way, and winning will follow. Don't act like your party(and therefore its members) are blameless. Instead of crying "LIBERAL BIAS" at every corruption case etc targeting one of yours or any of that, YOU should be the one to point them out and publicly purge them from your ranks... no matter how high ranked or prestigious they may be. YOU should be harder on your own than on your opposition. That shows that you take integrity seriously... especially at home. Only a madman can claim that this accurately describes how things have operated in my adult lifetime. But you can go back. Its not like Democrats operate much better, but as is they can easily call you all hypocrites as soon as you point them out and therefore they can just carry on as usual. If you had the high ground to stand on, things would be different.

Also, quit assuming that "your media" is the honest media. Take the television shows/radio shows/editorials as what they are... entertainment. Look up your own information. If one goes to the water cooler, and hears every conservative saying the EXACT same thing as the last one - which changes day to day as talking points get passed down, one must wonder if the MSM is really the most powerful brainwashing machine available... Take everything you hear with a grain of salt - especially things you hear from your own. That is where the greatest risk exists of becoming a hive mind. Its far, far too easy to listen to people who think like you do and believe what they say without properly evaluating it. Scrutiny happens far more often when we here something disagreeable and/or something from someone we don't like. This is how things have got to this point - so busy checking on the Liberals that you neglect to check on your own. You can get so caught up in all this "us vs them" stuff - focusing completely on "them" - that you forget to monitor "us" and never noticed when you went completely off course.

Most of all(advice for anyone), don't assume someone is stupid just because they don't accept your view/perspective/opinion on things. One should N-E-V-E-R discount the possibility(even if you think its remote) that even you might very well be wrong about absolutely any given subject. And please learn to disagree agreeably.

I've made this post much longer than I intended - I originally just wanted to post the video. LOL.

lol @ bashing conservatives, yet the same thing is happening to the democratic party. Dems have gone so far left, and republicans so far right, there seems to be no common ground anymore.

Everyone can point a finger.

ps - couldn't watch the video from work. I'll check it out when I get home.

DL Hughley interviews on CNN??

J03Y wrote:lol @ bashing conservatives, yet the same thing is happening to the democratic party. Dems have gone so far left, and republicans so far right, there seems to be no common ground anymore.

Everyone can point a finger.

ps - couldn't watch the video from work. I'll check it out when I get home.

I think you guys desperately need new parties. Either a Conservative one for real conservatives and not the Evangelical Neocons who took over the Rep party, or a Liberal one for the real liberals and not the Marxists-Leninists who've taken over the Democrats. Or if the Conservative/Liberal designation seems a bit too narrow, then how about Progressive and Labour? Hell, even the Whig party at this point would be a welcome addition.

The problem with two parties (Besides being the fact that it's about as close as you can to having one party as is legal) is that it transforms the whole political process into a football game, with each side rooting for a team no matter how awful the game. With Three parties you create a viable opposition, one group who can say NO to one or the other side's excesses..

Knoxfire Esquire wrote:

J03Y wrote:lol @ bashing conservatives, yet the same thing is happening to the democratic party. Dems have gone so far left, and republicans so far right, there seems to be no common ground anymore.

Everyone can point a finger.

ps - couldn't watch the video from work. I'll check it out when I get home.

I think you guys desperately need new parties. Either a Conservative one for real conservatives and not the Evangelical Neocons who took over the Rep party, or a Liberal one for the real liberals and not the Marxists-Leninists who've taken over the Democrats. Or if the Conservative/Liberal designation seems a bit too narrow, then how about Progressive and Labour? Hell, even the Whig party at this point would be a welcome addition.

The problem with two parties (Besides being the fact that it's about as close as you can to having one party as is legal) is that it transforms the whole political process into a football game, with each side rooting for a team no matter how awful the game. With Three parties you create a viable opposition, one group who can say NO to one or the other side's excesses..

I think after the next four years, you'll see major growth in the Libertarian party.


Desert Tuners

“When you come across a big kettle of crazy, it’s best not to stir it.”

FReQ GTO eSquIRE wrote:I think after the next four years, you'll see major growth in the Libertarian party.

we can only hope so.

J03Y wrote:lol @ bashing conservatives, yet the same thing is happening to the democratic party.

I agree but that doesn't have so much to do with what has happened to the conservative party, does it? You can't get past faults by pointing out another man's faults. "but, mommy he did it too" isn't an excuse. If you read the whole thing, you might notice there is a bit more than just bashing in my post. I don't hate conservatives, I just think they need to get their collective asses straight.

Now I'm no Democrat either, but from the outside of both parties its plain as day to see that as a whole- Republicans have moved much further to the extreme right than the Democrats have moved to the left extreme left. I at this point, Democrats are gonna get there in time - as I said they currently have so much power that they don't really need to listen to the center anymore and I think they're starting in that direction. But Republicans have been moving into the fringes for a lot longer and it shows. Its not there aren't some lifelong Republicans who haven't been saying the same things, I just don't feel the need to sugar coat it since I'm not affiliated.

Republicans fled the center so long ago that many of your look at it like its some dirty, impure thing and so the Democrats scooped it up. Well if they are gonna abandon the center now, its your chance to move back. I think the ball's in the Conservative court now. But just look at what people where saying after this last election... "we lost because we haven't been conservative enough," etc, etc. ARE YOU MAD?! Do you really think that you lost because hard-right voters voted for Obama? Seriously... No, you lost because at this point the main thing you attract is far right voters. Non-affiliated (aka swing) voters generally voted against you - not just with Obama but other elections too. To a certain degree, moderates in your own party voted against you... for the same reasons. And yet... the talk is that you haven't been "Conservative enough"... its just insanity.

Well, while I see your POV, don't say "you" and "your party" as I don't affiliate myself with either party. I'm a registered Libertarian.

Face it, they're both @!#$. They've both sucked since FDR.

bk3k wrote: The man tells the truth. This is the modern state of the once noble and respectable Republican party. This is not your grandpa's Republican party. There are still plenty of sensible Republicans out there, but you have lost control of your party to fringe lunatics and to people who have manipulated you and distorted what was once the conservative message until it isn't even recognizable anymore.

This man is either an idiot, or a fraud. Period. He may have been an evangelist, but he either:
A) Doesn't know anything about what real conservatism is about, or
B) Has joined the left-wing movement and is part of the attempt to marginalize conservatism

The biggest place he reveals himself is the repeating of the liberal MSM statement that people who believe as Rush does that want the country to fail just to prove that Obama is wrong. Quite the opposite. The very point of wanting Obama to fail is not that he fails to revive the economy, but that he fails to get everything he wants, which will kill this economy. I'm seriously sick of hearing this bullsh!t that if you disagree with what this administration wants to do you are against progress. F&$K THAT, F&$K this moron, and F&$K the blatenly biased MSMs who take anything they can out of context and feed it spoonfull by spoonfull to the people (who, unfortunately, seem to eat it up without question, and repeat it like it's gospel).

bk3k wrote:You want a tea party? You want to retake America?... You might want to start by retaking your own party first.

I agree with this statement at face value. No argument here.

bk3k wrote:Rebuild your party - instead of talking about evicting moderates(leaving only the extremists behind), you might be wiser to include those who have more in common with your traditional message than with the Democrat's own message. Your numbers are dwindled enough, you need more members, not fewer. Speaking of your traditional message - you might want to return to that instead of all this NEOCON garbage that we have today. The direction you have been heading in has been further and further to the fringes, leaving the Democrats to fill in the center - aka leaving the Liberals as the "voice of reason" against the radicals. Its ironic I know, but that's what happened and that's why you've got your asses kicked in the last 2 election cycles(you lost a hell of a lot more than the presidency in 2008 just like 2006 - and there are legitimate non-economy reasons for this - face it).

The very reason the Republican party is failing is because they have stopped being conservative. They have stopped standing for the founding principles of this country. Those who are trying to rebuild the party are sticking to principles. Don't let the Democrats, and the supporting media, convince you that the Republicans are simply up there saying no to everything. They have offered viable, reasonable alternatives, but have been blocked by Pelosi, Reid, and Obama, so that they can continue to point out that the Republicans are simply saying no to everything. The party has not been moving toward the fringes, they have been moving toward the middle, thinking it would gain them favor with Democrat voters. However, what really happened is that they stopped looking any different, and since the Democrats (for the most part) take any chance they can to sling mud on the Republicans, we got our asses kicked. If you want radical, just look at everything that the Democrats are cramming through. Look at the president. Look at what he's doing, not what he says.

bk3k wrote:Now the Democrats have such total control that they may no longer need to listen to the voices of reason from the center - as they shift their party further left - it may be your time to fill that void. Or you can keep going as is and pretty soon the Republican party will be mentioned along side the Green party for notoriety. Granted, if you continue down your current path of self destruction, a 3rd party may well rise to fill the void. But once you are marginalized enough, it becomes a 2 party system once again - just without Republicans.

It is time to get back to principles, and to make it known what those principles are, and why they are important to the future of our country. It is failure to do that which marginalizes the party. Don't believe me? Study what happened in 1994, and then look at what happened since then which led to the losses. It was not being conservative.

bk3k wrote: Some other priorities you might want to get in order - don't put "winning" or other political games ahead of principal. Do things the right way, and winning will follow. Don't act like your party(and therefore its members) are blameless. Instead of crying "LIBERAL BIAS" at every corruption case etc targeting one of yours or any of that, YOU should be the one to point them out and publicly purge them from your ranks... no matter how high ranked or prestigious they may be. YOU should be harder on your own than on your opposition. That shows that you take integrity seriously... especially at home. Only a madman can claim that this accurately describes how things have operated in my adult lifetime. But you can go back. Its not like Democrats operate much better, but as is they can easily call you all hypocrites as soon as you point them out and therefore they can just carry on as usual. If you had the high ground to stand on, things would be different.

Once again, you don't know what you're talking about here. The first two sentences are correct, but where you are way off base is in the fact that it was their attempt to change for the very purpose of winning which ruined them. And the backbones of the party right now are being hard on their own. John Boehner has been fighting with, and chastising, the Republicans who took earmarks and voted for the Omnibus bill. Everyone needs to get behind him (who, it should be noted, has never taken a single earmark in any bill in congress--look it up).
Agreed. And it's starting to happen. Watch the Republicans closely. They are actually starting to work together as a group, and get back to their principles, rather than trying to gain favor with the opposition. There are still straglers, but I believe they will fall in line eventually, or else they will be fired during the next mid-terms.

bk3k wrote:Also, quit assuming that "your media" is the honest media. Take the television shows/radio shows/editorials as what they are... entertainment. Look up your own information. If one goes to the water cooler, and hears every conservative saying the EXACT same thing as the last one - which changes day to day as talking points get passed down, one must wonder if the MSM is really the most powerful brainwashing machine available... Take everything you hear with a grain of salt - especially things you hear from your own. That is where the greatest risk exists of becoming a hive mind. Its far, far too easy to listen to people who think like you do and believe what they say without properly evaluating it. Scrutiny happens far more often when we here something disagreeable and/or something from someone we don't like. This is how things have got to this point - so busy checking on the Liberals that you neglect to check on your own. You can get so caught up in all this "us vs them" stuff - focusing completely on "them" - that you forget to monitor "us" and never noticed when you went completely off course.

LOL. Seriously, have you heard what is getting repeated out there over and over again? It's the liberal talking points that every MSM station is repeating. I can't turn on the TV or radio, or go to any of the major news websites, without hearing the daily rhetoric from the left. And none of them are truly questioning anything. When someone does question something, they start tearing them apart, even if they are on the same team. There is a genuine collective attitude out there that you can not question this administration, because somehow you are anti-progress, and don't want this country to get better. They don't want scrutiny, they want compliance. The sooner you realize this, the sooner you will really see what is being done to this country.

bk3k wrote:Most of all(advice for anyone), don't assume someone is stupid just because they don't accept your view/perspective/opinion on things. One should N-E-V-E-R discount the possibility(even if you think its remote) that even you might very well be wrong about absolutely any given subject. And please learn to disagree agreeably.

Good advice, but it can be said that someone is stupid when they spew unsubstantiated rhetoric. At that point, you are just a parrot. When you have a point, you need to back it up with fact. However, no one seems to expect this from the very people in power making outrageous claims, repeatedly giving doom-and-gloom speaches, and being completely hypocritical at every turn. Their only excuse thus far has been that they were handed a budget deficit, so that gives them the right to explode it. Foolishness, and people need to wake up to it. They have been taking the election results as carte-blanche to do whatever they want, and it needs to end now

bk3k wrote:Republicans fled the center so long ago that many of your look at it like its some dirty, impure thing and so the Democrats scooped it up. Well if they are gonna abandon the center now, its your chance to move back. I think the ball's in the Conservative court now. But just look at what people where saying after this last election... "we lost because we haven't been conservative enough," etc, etc. ARE YOU MAD?! Do you really think that you lost because hard-right voters voted for Obama? Seriously... No, you lost because at this point the main thing you attract is far right voters. Non-affiliated (aka swing) voters generally voted against you - not just with Obama but other elections too. To a certain degree, moderates in your own party voted against you... for the same reasons. And yet... the talk is that you haven't been "Conservative enough"... its just insanity.

I wanted to respond to this, in spite of the fact that my last post clearly states it, but it's not that we lost hard-right votes, it's that the people in the middle, or those who really don't pay that much attention, have had no clear explanation given to them as to what true conservative principles are, and why they work. The independants (speaking of voters here) have swung to the left because they really had no idea what the difference was, and the Democrats are very strong campaigners. They are also, of course, supported by the MSM. When conservatives start really getting the message out as to what makes them different, they will start getting back the independants.

I think the Blue Dogs will actually help the movement, because they are starting to get pissed off at what's happening to their party. However, since the Democrats have full control of the House, Senate, and Whitehouse, the liberal Democrats are going to continue to push their agenda, and try to force the hands of the Blue Dogs.

I will say again, look at 1994. You probably weren't paying attention at that point in time, but as someone who actually voted in that election, and has been paying attention and keeping myself informed since the mid 80's, I can tell you that the Republicans made huge gains in that election due to the fact that they made it clear what they stood for, and as a group they stayed on message. It is going to happen in 2010 and 2012. They still need to get their sh!t together more, but it's already starting to happen.

Quiklilcav wrote:

bk3k wrote: The man tells the truth. This is the modern state of the once noble and respectable Republican party. This is not your grandpa's Republican party. There are still plenty of sensible Republicans out there, but you have lost control of your party to fringe lunatics and to people who have manipulated you and distorted what was once the conservative message until it isn't even recognizable anymore.

This man is either an idiot, or a fraud. Period. He may have been an evangelist, but he either:
A) Doesn't know anything about what real conservatism is about, or
B) Has joined the left-wing movement and is part of the attempt to marginalize conservatism

The biggest place he reveals himself is the repeating of the liberal MSM statement that people who believe as Rush does that want the country to fail just to prove that Obama is wrong. Quite the opposite. The very point of wanting Obama to fail is not that he fails to revive the economy, but that he fails to get everything he wants, which will kill this economy. I'm seriously sick of hearing this bullsh!t that if you disagree with what this administration wants to do you are against progress. F&$K THAT, F&$K this moron, and F&$K the blatenly biased MSMs who take anything they can out of context and feed it spoonfull by spoonfull to the people (who, unfortunately, seem to eat it up without question, and repeat it like it's gospel).

I actually agree with quik on this. Proof:

J03Y wrote:Well, while I see your POV, don't say "you" and "your party" as I don't affiliate myself with either party. I'm a registered Libertarian.

Face it, they're both @!#$. They've both sucked since FDR.

They have both sucked ever scene Roosevelt, Ya know the good one, TEDDY, Got out.


After reading what Dr. Pail stands for, I would vote for him, no matter what party he was with.

Maybe he was right, it is time for a "Revaluation" just a different kind he, at the time, was talking about.

Chris




"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry

Here's a nugget for y'all. When you cut and paste and entire BOOK, you'll be hard pressed to find anyone with the patience to read the entire piece. Next time, excerpts.

Oh, and piss off.

.


“Poor Al Gore. Global warming completely debunked via the very Internet you invented. Oh, oh, the irony!” -Jon Stewart

ScottaWhite wrote:Here's a nugget for y'all. When you cut and paste and entire BOOK, you'll be hard pressed to find anyone with the patience to read the entire piece. Next time, excerpts.

Oh, and piss off.

.

That was useful.

Quiklilcav wrote:

ScottaWhite wrote:Here's a nugget for y'all. When you cut and paste and entire BOOK, you'll be hard pressed to find anyone with the patience to read the entire piece. Next time, excerpts.

Oh, and piss off.

.

That was useful.

That was par for him...




fortune cookie say: better a delay than a disaster

Quiklilcav wrote:

bk3k wrote: The man tells the truth. This is the modern state of the once noble and respectable Republican party. This is not your grandpa's Republican party. There are still plenty of sensible Republicans out there, but you have lost control of your party to fringe lunatics and to people who have manipulated you and distorted what was once the conservative message until it isn't even recognizable anymore.

This man is either an idiot, or a fraud. Period. He may have been an evangelist, but he either:
A) Doesn't know anything about what real conservatism is about, or
B) Has joined the left-wing movement and is part of the attempt to marginalize conservatism

A) This man is the son of Francis Schaeffer. He has personally preached from Jerry Falwell's pulpit, and was once huge in the Evangelical Conservative movement, and helped convince his father to add his own anti-abortion stance(a view he still maintains to this day) as a core part of the Evangelical movement. He supported McCain as recently as 2000. Somehow, I think he understands the conservative movement quite well.
B) Ah the old "Liberal conspiracy" card. What isn't a Liberal conspiracy, eh? Seriously though I think he isn't trying to marginalize conservatism, he is trying to save it from itself by pointing out the direction it is headed. It is self marginalizing just fine on its own. Case in point: Just go watch the Republican primary debates and how all the neocons successfully marginalized one of your few remaining true conservatives(Ron Paul).

He was chastised as a wingnut by his own party first, not by the MSM(who only repeated the BS). I watched it happen. He was told he was running for the wrong party's nomination, criticized for DARING to tell the truth! They didn't want him at future debates. They all tried to marginalize him... and they where largely successful. His performance in the primaries was pitiful when it should have been a clean win... had he not been lied about and buried - especially by Republicans. You can try to blame the MSM for his crushing defeat if you want, but aren't CONSERVATIVES almost by definition quite weary of the MSM? Therefore they aren't too likely to turn many votes in the REPUBLICAN Primary, now are they? Fox News(and if you call them Liberally biased... someone should hit you) marginalized and buried him as hard as anyone. Only once the he dropped out did they make their peace with Paul.

Quiklilcav wrote:The biggest place he reveals himself is the repeating of the liberal MSM statement that people who believe as Rush does that want the country to fail just to prove that Obama is wrong. Quite the opposite. The very point of wanting Obama to fail is not that he fails to revive the economy, but that he fails to get everything he wants, which will kill this economy. I'm seriously sick of hearing this bullsh!t that if you disagree with what this administration wants to do you are against progress. F&$K THAT, F&$K this moron, and F&$K the blatenly biased MSMs who take anything they can out of context and feed it spoonfull by spoonfull to the people (who, unfortunately, seem to eat it up without question, and repeat it like it's gospel).

I'll tell you what BS I'm tired of - "the MSM statement" - that view is NOT owned by the MSM. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they are brainwashed by the MSM. I'll quickly remind you that such "flaming Liberals" as Newt Gingrich and Pat Robertson have come out against that statement. We all know exactly what Rush REALLY meant, so cut all the spin and all the BS. I'll remind everyone that a former head of the DNC once said the same of George Bush(a fact ignored by the MSM), it was BS when he said it and it is BS now that Rush has said it. Why don't you call up follow Michael Steel's example and call Rush to see if he needs a back rub or a blow job? Seriously...

That man supported Bush's war on common sense for the last 8 years. He defended Bush when he unconstitutionally stripped US citizens of our rights, doubled the size of Government while slicing personal liberty, refused to cut pork item after pork item from budgets - because they came from other Republicans. Constant cronyism, unconstitutionally launched wars, torture, everything. Ron Paul has made as said about as much about Rush(he noted that Rush didn't oppose Bush at any step... unlike Ron Paul). Where was Rush though all this? He cheerleaded the whole thing! That man is a cancer to the Republican party. Like all good cancers, he is only spreading.

Quiklilcav wrote:

bk3k wrote:Rebuild your party - instead of talking about evicting moderates(leaving only the extremists behind), you might be wiser to include those who have more in common with your traditional message than with the Democrat's own message. Your numbers are dwindled enough, you need more members, not fewer. Speaking of your traditional message - you might want to return to that instead of all this NEOCON garbage that we have today. The direction you have been heading in has been further and further to the fringes, leaving the Democrats to fill in the center - aka leaving the Liberals as the "voice of reason" against the radicals. Its ironic I know, but that's what happened and that's why you've got your asses kicked in the last 2 election cycles(you lost a hell of a lot more than the presidency in 2008 just like 2006 - and there are legitimate non-economy reasons for this - face it).

The very reason the Republican party is failing is because they have stopped being conservative. They have stopped standing for the founding principles of this country. Those who are trying to rebuild the party are sticking to principles. Don't let the Democrats, and the supporting media, convince you that the Republicans are simply up there saying no to everything. They have offered viable, reasonable alternatives, but have been blocked by Pelosi, Reid, and Obama, so that they can continue to point out that the Republicans are simply saying no to everything. The party has not been moving toward the fringes, they have been moving toward the middle, thinking it would gain them favor with Democrat voters. However, what really happened is that they stopped looking any different, and since the Democrats (for the most part) take any chance they can to sling mud on the Republicans, we got our asses kicked. If you want radical, just look at everything that the Democrats are cramming through. Look at the president. Look at what he's doing, not what he says.

No @!#$ you stopped being conservative, and at the same time you stopped being realists. But being extremists in all you believe is not necessary nor beneficial to be a Conservative. I don't even see the party moving to its Conservative roots at this point, but moving deeper into your Neo-Conservationism and deeper into denial about what has happened these past 8 years, not to mention how you REALLY got there. As much as Conservatives disown GWB now, at LAST YEARS GOP CPAC he was showered in a chant of "4 MORE YEARS!! 4 MORE YEARS!! 4 MORE YEARS!!" Funny what a difference a year can make in people's memories...

The media tells me nothing, for I do not listen to the media. I listen to facts, and to the source(s). I don't think for one second that your representatives are opposing Obama out of true philosophical opposition. Time has proven that your own leaders do not believe in fiscal responsibility. They may pander to their base(you) but make no mistake that they want to do the exact same things Obama is, only they want to be the ones doing it and the ones benefiting from it. Your leaders are fiscal conservatives right up to the moment they control the purse strings. Suddenly they don't have the power anymore and suddenly they are "reformed." How... convenient. You surely don't think all Kool-Aid is colored blue, do you?

I'm curious just what good alternatives you guys proposed? I haven't seen much besides LOWER TAXES!! Well you can't do everything just by lowering taxes, if you could then we wouldn't be in this mess. Taxes didn't cause this mess and cannot on their own get us out. But I can certainly agree that Reid and Pelosi are bad for America. In my estimation, they'll likely destroy the chance the Democrats have at this point of setting America straight. They just want revenge and want more power for the Democrats... aka repeating what you guys have done. Its a unending destructive cycle of stupidity and America is the real victim.

Don't mistake for one damn second that a President McCain wouldn't be doing the exact same thing - just with different beneficiaries. Rest assured that in that scenario, the Democrats would be saying the exact same things(more or less) that you are saying, and you'd be defending the same things you are attacking today. Since when did you attack Bush for doing these things? But its different now that Obama does them? I could say the same to Democrats, eh? You have said in another thread that Republicans have been "acting like Democrats" - and I have bad news for you... that wasn't "acting". You're the same beast from a rival pack, and that is all. This dance is older than you or me by far.

Quiklilcav wrote:

bk3k wrote:Now the Democrats have such total control that they may no longer need to listen to the voices of reason from the center - as they shift their party further left - it may be your time to fill that void. Or you can keep going as is and pretty soon the Republican party will be mentioned along side the Green party for notoriety. Granted, if you continue down your current path of self destruction, a 3rd party may well rise to fill the void. But once you are marginalized enough, it becomes a 2 party system once again - just without Republicans.

It is time to get back to principles, and to make it known what those principles are, and why they are important to the future of our country. It is failure to do that which marginalizes the party. Don't believe me? Study what happened in 1994, and then look at what happened since then which led to the losses. It was not being conservative.

What happened in 94 was that your leaders successfully pandered to their base and to independents, and what happened in 2001+ was that they realized they had full control and their base was going to stick with them without paying full attention and so they could - and did - what they really wanted to do.

Quiklilcav wrote:

bk3k wrote: Some other priorities you might want to get in order - don't put "winning" or other political games ahead of principal. Do things the right way, and winning will follow. Don't act like your party(and therefore its members) are blameless. Instead of crying "LIBERAL BIAS" at every corruption case etc targeting one of yours or any of that, YOU should be the one to point them out and publicly purge them from your ranks... no matter how high ranked or prestigious they may be. YOU should be harder on your own than on your opposition. That shows that you take integrity seriously... especially at home. Only a madman can claim that this accurately describes how things have operated in my adult lifetime. But you can go back. Its not like Democrats operate much better, but as is they can easily call you all hypocrites as soon as you point them out and therefore they can just carry on as usual. If you had the high ground to stand on, things would be different.

Once again, you don't know what you're talking about here. The first two sentences are correct, but where you are way off base is in the fact that it was their attempt to change for the very purpose of winning which ruined them. And the backbones of the party right now are being hard on their own. John Boehner has been fighting with, and chastising, the Republicans who took earmarks and voted for the Omnibus bill. Everyone needs to get behind him (who, it should be noted, has never taken a single earmark in any bill in congress--look it up).
Agreed. And it's starting to happen. Watch the Republicans closely. They are actually starting to work together as a group, and get back to their principles, rather than trying to gain favor with the opposition. There are still straglers, but I believe they will fall in line eventually, or else they will be fired during the next mid-terms.

"9/11 9/11 9/11 9/11 9/11. No terrorists attacks on US soil since 9/11. Democrats are soft on terrorists. 9/11". ETC. This is what we've been hearing - and you speak now of Obama's fear mongering. This was a large part of Bush's re-election strategy not to mention a method of legislative control, and you guys tried it this last election cycle too, but people have caught on at this point. All this time that you guys used a national tragedy for political gain... I don't even want to hear some spin about how the MSM made it appear that way or whatever you have to say about it. You where doing it and it made me sick. This opportunistic BS is a large part of my disdain for your party... @!#$ like this. Don't bother denying it.

I assure you the RNC cares about one thing above all others... survival(with power in a close 2nd place). Any institution becomes an entity at some point, and cares about itself over its own lauded goals. It happened to unions, and it happened to both political parties. They don't care about your concerns/views. They care about your votes and your donations, so they pander to you. They will do anything to win. This is exactly why you don't often see them willingly airing their dirty laundry. All the scandals we've seen - almost all of them have had one thing in common - people knew - and those people said... nothing.

John Boehner then might be a rarity in this case, because is not a "good conservative" someone who - besides staying strictly on the party message despite personal opinions - is loyal to the party above all else? You need more whistle-blowers and you should be PROUD of them, not accuse them of being traitors or part of some Democratic plot or whatever. That or you might blame their legitimate descent on ulterior motives(like Powell on supporting Obama). Or you have good men like Joe Scarborough who in 2004 said that he wanted Bush to loose - essentially for the same reasons that you talk of today - he didn't follow TRADITIONAL Conservative values at all. All he did right was @!#$ up. Joe called it, and oh the hatred he received for it. You call these people RINOs and such, because they aren't blindly loyal enough(I call that integrity). Sounds more like a mafia family to me.

Quiklilcav wrote:

bk3k wrote:Also, quit assuming that "your media" is the honest media. Take the television shows/radio shows/editorials as what they are... entertainment. Look up your own information. If one goes to the water cooler, and hears every conservative saying the EXACT same thing as the last one - which changes day to day as talking points get passed down, one must wonder if the MSM is really the most powerful brainwashing machine available... Take everything you hear with a grain of salt - especially things you hear from your own. That is where the greatest risk exists of becoming a hive mind. Its far, far too easy to listen to people who think like you do and believe what they say without properly evaluating it. Scrutiny happens far more often when we here something disagreeable and/or something from someone we don't like. This is how things have got to this point - so busy checking on the Liberals that you neglect to check on your own. You can get so caught up in all this "us vs them" stuff - focusing completely on "them" - that you forget to monitor "us" and never noticed when you went completely off course.

LOL. Seriously, have you heard what is getting repeated out there over and over again? It's the liberal talking points that every MSM station is repeating. I can't turn on the TV or radio, or go to any of the major news websites, without hearing the daily rhetoric from the left. And none of them are truly questioning anything. When someone does question something, they start tearing them apart, even if they are on the same team. There is a genuine collective attitude out there that you can not question this administration, because somehow you are anti-progress, and don't want this country to get better. They don't want scrutiny, they want compliance. The sooner you realize this, the sooner you will really see what is being done to this country.

Yes, I see Democrats doing this too, and my point is that so do Conservatives. Too many people are told what to think by the media, and that includes you guys too. Your media - if anything is more dangerous - because they are much more monolithic (as is your followers rhetoric). You could say that you are more "on message," but its the same thing. Luckily, the Democrats may have some degree of brainwashing, but not from one unified source. They are much more fractured than you guys are - which is why again and again they managed to @!#$ up a sure thing, losing can't-loose-situation after situation.

Controlling people through media is EASY.
1. You take some ideas that people had suspicions about and tell them they are correct. You don't have to prove anything since they already thought so.
2. You tell them they are being victimized... perhaps by some conspiracy.
3.. You tell them that YOU are fighting for them.
4. Let them(who don't get screened) talk a little, but don't let them lead the conversation. You lead the show the whole way.
5. They are now officially your putty.

No, you guys are both being brainwashed while calling the other brainwashed. Funny thing about that... you're both right.

Quiklilcav wrote:

bk3k wrote:Most of all(advice for anyone), don't assume someone is stupid just because they don't accept your view/perspective/opinion on things. One should N-E-V-E-R discount the possibility(even if you think its remote) that even you might very well be wrong about absolutely any given subject. And please learn to disagree agreeably.

Good advice, but it can be said that someone is stupid when they spew unsubstantiated rhetoric. At that point, you are just a parrot. When you have a point, you need to back it up with fact. However, no one seems to expect this from the very people in power making outrageous claims

You sir, are preaching to the choir at this point.

Quiklilcav wrote:I wanted to respond to this, in spite of the fact that my last post clearly states it, but it's not that we lost hard-right votes, it's that the people in the middle, or those who really don't pay that much attention, have had no clear explanation given to them as to what true conservative principles are, and why they work. The independants (speaking of voters here) have swung to the left because they really had no idea what the difference was, and the Democrats are very strong campaigners. They are also, of course, supported by the MSM. When conservatives start really getting the message out as to what makes them different, they will start getting back the independants.

It's not that people don't know what Republicans are SUPPOSED to stand for, the problem is that they know what you DID when given the reins to power. Conservative principals mean nothing if you don't use them when temptation knocks. Your problem isn't that people don't understand your message, its your credibility on that message. To quote Jon Stewart - "If you don't keep your values when they're tested, they're not your values!! They're your... hobbies." And before you say it, no I don't use The Daily Show for information or as a source for my opinions... its just comedy.

ScottaWhite wrote:Here's a nugget for y'all. When you cut and paste and entire BOOK, you'll be hard pressed to find anyone with the patience to read the entire piece. Next time, excerpts.

Oh, and piss off.

.

Here's a nugget for you. If you can't muster the attention span to read something like that, how can anyone assume you have it in you to do proper research into ANY given subject sufficiently enough to have any idea of what you are talking about? Having decent knowledge of any subject entails a lot of reading but apparently that's not your forte. Serious debates can't be summarized into catchy 1 liners.

I hope I didn't make this response too long for you.

Well said Frank Schaeffer .


THE POLITICALLY INCORRECT ONE.

bk3k, that rediculous post was so full of idiocy that I have neither the time, nor the inclination, to respond individually to all of the inane statements you made.

However, I will make a few points:

Because he was a big part of the Evangelical movement, and supported McCain, you believe he has a good grasp of true conservatism? You might want to examine McCain a little more if you think so. This statement supports my points of why Republicans have failed.

Regarding 1994, I'll say the same to you as I've said to a few others: don't talk to me about things you have read about, that I was actually paying attention to, because I was voting at that time, as if you somehow have a better understanding than I do. Believe me, you don't. The more you post, the more obvious it is.

The BS you just ranted regarding 9/11 was probably the most obvious regurgitation of the typical rhetoric from the liberals that you've posted so far. Thank you for proving my point. That is pretty much verbatim what they said for the last 6 years. And regarding the claim that it was abused to gain more power, Bush did not increase the power and control of the governement in eight years as much as Obama has done in just under two months. And yes, I have criticized Bush. I have also criticized others from my own party, as well as supported Democrats who I agreed with on some issues. If you have truly paid attention to my political debates, you would realize that I stand on principles, and I will not support someone who I disagree with because they are in my party. What I will tell you is that history has proven that conservatism in government works better than any system.

Another major point, which people need to really get into their heads, because it is at the heart of the complete bullsh!t you have fallen for:

The economic crash had nothing to do with the Republicans' deregulationary policies. It was 100% caused by the liberal regulation of the housing market, and the investment market. If you don't understand how we got to the housing bubble, you need to really read up on the Community Reinvestment Act, the mortgage backed securities industry, and the effects of mark-to-market accounting in that industry. Also, you have to realize that twice in the past decade, it was Republicans who tried to reign in the CRA, Fannie Mae, and Freddie Mac. Both times, it was shot down fiercly by Democrats, primarily led by Barney Frank and Chris Dodd. It was called years ago that if changes weren't made, the subprime mortgage industry would lead to a massive collapse in the housing and banking industry. Guess what? They were right! And now, as the liberals are so good at doing, they turn around and claim it was all the Republicans' fault because of deregulation policies of the financial market.

This economy got where it is by the mentallity that everyone deserved a house, and everyone deserved credit. Now the country is buried in debt, and people are believing them that the only way to get out of it is more debt. Anyone of reasonable intelligence should be able to figure out that obvious paradox.

As far as McCain going the same thing if he were in the Whitehouse? Not even close. Maybe you aught to read his stimulus plan, which included both tax cuts and spending, but was half the size of what we got, and I guarantee you would have done more to stimulate than the ARRA did. Why can I say this? Because I have lived through enough presidencies to witness how policy changes affect the economy.

Since you obviously have never actually listened to Limbaugh, other than perhaps part of one single program, or excerpts used out of context, you can not possibly claim to know what he means. As someone who has listened to him on and off for years, I can tell you that you couldn't be more wrong, but I'm sure you'll brush that off, too, because I must just be mindless, right? There is a reason that he continues to increase the size of his audience, and that is because people who listen to him and actually pay attention for a while, realize what he is actually about. He has bashed plenty of Republicans when they are doing things he disagrees with. I have known plenty of people who thought exactly as you do, until they listened to him for a while.

So I will say again, some of you need to stop posting about things that you don't truly understand as if you've lived it. You need to accept the fact that someone who lived something you have only read about might understand it better, and not get the muddied version in a book, on a website, or in a classroom.

I will end with this: I can be quite stubborn, especially when I'm sure of my position. I will debate hard, and I am usually happy to be proven correct. However, in this instance, I truly will not be happy when I am proven correct in my statements about the agendas of the current Democratic leadership in congress, and the Obama administration.

Quote:

bk3k, that rediculous post was so full of idiocy that I have neither the time, nor the inclination, to respond individually to all of the inane statements you made.

Won't... or can't? I think there are some legitimate complaints that you can't sugar coat and spin away.

Those statements I have made sound insane to you - because you are a true believer in your party through and through. Nothing - especially not any reality - can change this. Your posts make this glaringly obvious. I have been around quite a while, as have you. Your user name isn't unfamilar to me... and yet you bashing Bush for doing stupid things... certainly is. I have posted for years that what he was doing was not only stupid but also against classic conservative principals - or at least the things you guys SAID where your principals - of course I was told that I didn't know what I was talking about. There is a pretty simple explanation for this... yet I wonder if it will occur to you if I don't spell it out.

Quote:

The BS you just ranted regarding 9/11 was probably the most obvious regurgitation of the typical rhetoric from the liberals that you've posted so far. Thank you for proving my point.

Thanks for proving my hunch when I said this -

Quote:

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they are brainwashed by the MSM.

This is clear insight into how you think. My hunch was apparently dead on. Just because someone says something that also was said by people you disagree with... it CLEARLY means they have been BRAINWASHED by those bad guys that are always wrong instead of listening to the light and the truth of my guys. You really need to re-evaluate yourself here. Just... listen to yourself and how you sound. Seriously...

No that statement has NOTHING to do with the MSM, Liberal propaganda, or anything else. It has to do with what my own eyes and ears have witnessed since 9/11. How could I NOT notice this? How can YOU not notice this? (well I know why but I still wanted to ask) This isn't because Democrats said so. This kinda scare tactic had been coming out constantly from Republican mouths. I've been watching. Even as recently as the 2008 RNC convention - That "tribute" (cough)(BS)(cough) presentation and Rudy Giuliani right after it. The message was clear but it was worn out at this point although it used to work much better. No news program, no newspaper, no website told me this. I WATCHED your convention just as I watched the DNC convention. You can't BS your way out of that. It isn't some Liberal lie - it happened again, again, again, again, again, again, again, and again between 9/11 and that point.

I understand a few things from your posts. If someone actually disagrees with you, they either -
1. Haven't been paying attention,
2. Are "brainwashed" by the MSM and Liberals,
3. Somehow they just don't understand,
4. They are actually PART of the Liberal conspiracy to misinform people of the REAL truth - which of course your party represents the truth and good in the world, or
5. They are just plain stupid! How could they not get it!!

I don't think you can quite process that an intellectual without a partisan agenda might actually disagree with you - even after being well educated on the subject matter. Its impossible of course. I just don't know what I'm talking about - if I did then of course I'd agree with you. Or maybe... I'm some secret Liberal agent sent to deceive the good people of J-body enthusiast network! First JBO, then the world!! HAHAHA!!

Quote:

The economic crash had nothing to do with the Republicans' deregulationary policies. It was 100% caused by the liberal regulation of the housing market, and the investment market.

Keep telling yourself that. Typical, unwilling to shoulder any blame what-so-ever no matter what. I agree and have posted several times that the Democrats played a large roll is this catastrophe AND SO DID REPUBLICANS. If fact, politicians don't even shoulder all the blame. Stupid bankers, stupid wall street investors, and stupid borrowers. There is alot of blame to go around... but typical that you can't let your party take one ounce of the blame they earned. The buck stops... over there.

There is an old phrase - "There are always two sides to every story... and then there is also the truth." It couldn't be more fitting here. You have the BS from the media and Democrats that their sheep believe completely, the BS from Conservative media that their own brand of sheep believe unquestionably, and there is this elusive thing called the truth... that no one is telling you. No television station, radio station , or internet website is gonna package the complete and whole truth to you... ever. You need to discern it for yourself.

Quote:

As far as McCain going the same thing if he were in the Whitehouse? Not even close.

I guarantee he wouldn't propose the same thing while in power as he would without it. Its easy to be more philosophical than practical(or even greedy) when your vote doesn't hold much weight. As I recall, when your party last had this temptation... we know exactly what happened. They abandoned their principals faster than students abandon clothing after the prom. And you might appreciate this... when the Democrats where in the exact same position you now find yourselves in - what did they do? They criticized all the pork, Republican power grabs, and other excess. Now they are back and... they are doing exactly what you guys have been doing. Those Democrats are absolute hypocrites or worse. And the Republicans are back to doing EXACTLY what the Democrats where doing in their position. Its the same thing. Words - as you've pointed out - are cheap. Action holds meaning... and we've all seen exactly what actions you guys have taken. Now that you have no power, you are back to being high and mighty... again how "convenient."

Don't tell me that Republicans are gonna be different next time they get absolute control. I'm not that gullible. Politicians are politicians no matter which party they pander too.

Quote:

Since you obviously have never actually listened to Limbaugh, other than perhaps part of one single program, or excerpts used out of context, you can not possibly claim to know what he means.

You're partially right. I have done very little listening to him. Occasionally people around me are already listening and so I hear. But... while I haven't done much "listening" to Rush, are you perhaps aware that there are complete transcripts of his shows available on his website? I have read plenty of those - as I don't like quotes out of context. I might not be the "Rush expert" here, but obvious things are obvious. Perhaps you want to give me a Clintonian debate over the word "the" or some such? I'm not stupid.

Its very plain to see what would happen if all these things Obama does become a success - something you consider "impossible" anyways but still. Its obvious to see that if Obama does well, you guys aren't gonna be seeing many good elections results for a long time. I don't need the MSM to tell me that.

Quote:

Because he was a big part of the Evangelical movement, and supported McCain, you believe he has a good grasp of true conservatism? You might want to examine McCain a little more if you think so.

Depends which McCain you are talking about - pre-election season McCain or election season+ McCain. That isn't my main point. It was just a side point that he was supporting your party as recently as 2000. The man was raised in a Pillar of the Conservative movement. He's been with his father to the White House for numerous Republican Administrations. As I may have mentioned, he helped convince his father to add abortion as a core issue to Evangelical movement(and he still holds that "pro-life" belief). If anything, I HIGHLY DOUBT that you have half the understanding of "good Conservatism" that he - who was once at the core of it - does.

The McCain thing brings another point though. You think Republicans lost last election because they haven't been "Conservative enough?" Then let me ask you about Sarah Palin. Despite her massive expansion of Alaska's socialism(the free money that all Alaskans get courtesy of a huge tax against companies who drill there), she is a strong Social Conservative and she certainly energized the base... and she certainly "energized" everyone else too - right into Obama's camp. This sort of leads to one of my earlier points - why is it that you think she appealed ONLY to the base of your party and did so poorly with everyone else? I suppose you think the MSM is to blame or whatever Liberal Conspiracy of the moment(there is always a good conspiracy going on LOL).

Considering next to no one outside of Alaska even knew about the socialism expansion... it wasn't because she wasn't "Conservative enough" or any such rubbish. It was quite the opposite. She wasn't MODERATE enough to attract - or even not repulse - 3rd party voters and non-affiliated swing voters. I might note that Obama did get some (presumably moderate) Republican voters. Hell, he got William F Buckley's son(who quit/lost/whatever his post at the National Review in the toss up of it). I suppose you're gonna tell me that he didn't understand good Conservatism either, aren't you?

As long as you don't understand the problem, you will never find the correct answer. What does it take to open your eyes?... a booming voice from the heavens? Or would that even do the trick?! I suppose this whole post has been wasted. Well at least I tried. Good luck with your future elections... you're gonna need it.

bk3k wrote:

Quote:

bk3k, that rediculous post was so full of idiocy that I have neither the time, nor the inclination, to respond individually to all of the inane statements you made.

Won't... or can't? I think there are some legitimate complaints that you can't sugar coat and spin away.

Those statements I have made sound insane to you - because you are a true believer in your party through and through. Nothing - especially not any reality - can change this. Your posts make this glaringly obvious. I have been around quite a while, as have you. Your user name isn't unfamilar to me... and yet you bashing Bush for doing stupid things... certainly is. I have posted for years that what he was doing was not only stupid but also against classic conservative principals - or at least the things you guys SAID where your principals - of course I was told that I didn't know what I was talking about. There is a pretty simple explanation for this... yet I wonder if it will occur to you if I don't spell it out.

I underlined the point you obviously missed. And I didn't make a type-o there, I meant inane. There's your vocabulary word for the day.

Regarding my posting about Bush, you're right, I wasn't here joining the Bush-bashing threads every day. There's a good reason for that: I agreed with, and still do, a good amount of his policies. However, when I disagree, I'll say so, without bias toward my party. Just a few months ago, I criticised Bush for releasing bailout money for the auto industry after congress voted it down.

And while you may try to marginalize me as being simply a Republican nut-swinger, I've explained before that I don't blindly support the party, but that I want the party to get back to it's principles, and I support those who stick to them. I have also repeatedly said that while I didn't like a lot of things about some of our candidates over the years, I would still have taken them over the Democratic opponent. McCain certainly wasn't a true conservative, but he wouldn't have been the radical liberal that Obama is (which everyone still seems to be in denial over).

bl3k wrote:

Quote:

The BS you just ranted regarding 9/11 was probably the most obvious regurgitation of the typical rhetoric from the liberals that you've posted so far. Thank you for proving my point.

Thanks for proving my hunch when I said this -

Quote:

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they are brainwashed by the MSM.

This is clear insight into how you think. My hunch was apparently dead on. Just because someone says something that also was said by people you disagree with... it CLEARLY means they have been BRAINWASHED by those bad guys that are always wrong instead of listening to the light and the truth of my guys. You really need to re-evaluate yourself here. Just... listen to yourself and how you sound. Seriously...

No that statement has NOTHING to do with the MSM, Liberal propaganda, or anything else. It has to do with what my own eyes and ears have witnessed since 9/11.

It's not that you agree with them, it's that you spout the rhetoric almost verbatim, which indicates regurgitation rather than original thought.

bl3k wrote:I understand a few things from your posts. If someone actually disagrees with you, they either -
1. Haven't been paying attention,
2. Are "brainwashed" by the MSM and Liberals,
3. Somehow they just don't understand,
4. They are actually PART of the Liberal conspiracy to misinform people of the REAL truth - which of course your party represents the truth and good in the world, or
5. They are just plain stupid! How could they not get it!!

I don't think you can quite process that an intellectual without a partisan agenda might actually disagree with you - even after being well educated on the subject matter. Its impossible of course.

I have spelled out numerous times, with statistics, why what I say is true. It has been repeatedly answered with empty explainations or brush-offs. On a few occasions, it has even been refuted with more statistics that support my point, rather than rebut it. If that doesn't prove lack of understanding, what does? LOL.

And in case you missed it, I've even quoted Democrats who support fiscal conservatism. I support many of the Blue Dogs, although I'm not happy that a lot of them voted with their party over the recent months. At least some of them are standing up and saying enough is enough.

bl3k wrote:

Quote:

The economic crash had nothing to do with the Republicans' deregulationary policies. It was 100% caused by the liberal regulation of the housing market, and the investment market.

Keep telling yourself that. Typical, unwilling to shoulder any blame what-so-ever no matter what. I agree and have posted several times that the Democrats played a large roll is this catastrophe AND SO DID REPUBLICANS.

There you go, falling into the liberal way of arguing: when all else fails, just speak louder (or in the case of text, post in all caps). You missed the point entirely: the biggest contributing factors, that made the economic downturn an absolute crash (there will always be downturns, as it's just part of the cycle of the economy), were the Democratic demands that everyone be given credit, everyone deserves a house, etc., and the accounting requirements of the financial industries that allowed their assets to inflate, which obviously drew in investors. I suggested that you really read up on those things, but obviously you haven't. If you really read up and understand how it works, there is an obvious conclusion. No where did I say that the Republicans haven't done anything wrong. What I said was that the Democrats keep blaming the Republican's lack of regulation, when in reality, it was Democrat regulation that caused it.

bl3k wrote:

Quote:

As far as McCain going the same thing if he were in the Whitehouse? Not even close.

I guarantee he wouldn't propose the same thing while in power as he would without it. Its easy to be more philosophical than practical(or even greedy) when your vote doesn't hold much weight. As I recall, when your party last had this temptation... we know exactly what happened. They abandoned their principals faster than students abandon clothing after the prom. And you might appreciate this... when the Democrats where in the exact same position you now find yourselves in - what did they do? They criticized all the pork, Republican power grabs, and other excess. Now they are back and... they are doing exactly what you guys have been doing. Those Democrats are absolute hypocrites or worse. And the Republicans are back to doing EXACTLY what the Democrats where doing in their position. Its the same thing. Words - as you've pointed out - are cheap. Action holds meaning... and we've all seen exactly what actions you guys have taken. Now that you have no power, you are back to being high and mighty... again how "convenient."

Oh, really? Then why is it that McCain was originally against the TARP bill? He did finally support it, but it wasn't what he wanted to do, and he spoke up on it at the time. While, once again, I'll say that he's not a staunch conservative, he is far more conservative than what we got.
Its very plain to see what would happen if all these things Obama does become a success - something you consider "impossible" anyways but still. Its obvious to see that if Obama does well, you guys aren't gonna be seeing many good elections results for a long time. I don't need the MSM to tell me that.
The point is that it has been tried before, more than once, and it has failed. Also, without even digging into statistics, anyone can tell you that in a recession, you can't tax and spend your way out of it. Yet that is exactly what we're being fed, and too many people are eating it up.