I haven't posted here in a very long time, and was going to become a member of another forum, but I'm a little more familiar with the people around here. To my understanding there is some very knowledgeable individuals actively part of this forum and organization. I wanted to present a few thoughts and problems I'm having trouble drawing a conclusion on. Any input would be very much appreciated.
First, I don't understand how an air intake, commonly referred to as CAI or WAI increases power or benefits the performance aspects of the engine in any way. If the engine was starved for air wouldn't you get codes based on richer than normal fuel mixtures, emissions issues, and O2 sensor problems? So if the engine is not begging for more air, how would adding an intake help? Furthermore, doesn't the engine need to have a mechanically justifiable reason to draw in more air? Examples: supercharger, turbocharger or pro-charger. Same with the exhaust, why increase header and piping diameter while adding a higher flowing muffler or catalytic converter, if the engine does not a have a mechanically justifiable reason to do so, again: supercharger, turbocharger or pro-charger. My engine is completely factory based and I can smash the pedal to the floor and get ZERO codes, backfire issues or hesitation. If I don't have any air starvation issues or exhaust flow problems, how would increasing diameter and adding higher flowing components: muffler, catalytic converter and air intake help me in any way? I don't see how the manufacturer could deprive and apply resistance like characteristics to an engine without it showing symptoms of such complications.
Secondly, most people state that when bleeding a brake system with the ABS feature you need have the ABS module separately done because air or contaminated fluid is trapped in there. A normal brake bleed will not remove such issues, because the module needs to be activated to release fluid. So it seems as if the actuators within the module are in sort of a “locked line state” at all times, except when activated. The problem I'm having is, from the brake fluid reservoir and master cylinder location my brake lines feed directly into the ABS module prior to feeding all four calipers, yet when I apply my brakes...I stop...Though, I thought, my ABS module was in a “locked line state” and does not allow fluid flow unless actuated.
Next, the highly recommended strut upgrade when lowering a vehicle, specifically the Cavalier. I have heard it countless times “You have to” “It's dangerous” “They'll blow out”. The thing is I've lowered 5 vehicles myself, with drops ranging from 1.1 inches to 1.6 inches and have NEVER had a problem. If an individual were to load a vehicle up to it's maximum gross vehicle weight, the car would naturally lower itself. If the driver stays under the maximum gross vehicle weight, according to the manufacturer, they will surely be safe. So then why is it unsafe to manually apply the load (via lowering springs) to the struts? I thought they could safely and securely compress beyond normal conditions while carrying the gross vehicle weight stated by the manufacturer. Additionally, when manually lowering a vehicle most of us do not ever intend to apply excess weight to our cars. In a sense it seems as if it would be better to lowering a vehicle on springs rather than add additional weight.
The sensors tell the computer and injectors how much fuel is needed. its automatic. I heard before that an engine is like an air pump and the more air you can move the more power you make. Everything from the factory is set up for emisions and restriction. Upgrading intake and exhaust parts will move more air which make more power. as far as turbos, Ive heard they work the engine hard and some people dont like them. this may be more the mentality of old V8 guys but everybodys got their own opinion or goal. A turbo or super charger is not required when adding a high performance intake or exhaust setup. Thats just my understanding and plan for my car and doesnt mean its right or wrong.
Hey man, thanks for your input. I already understood everything you explained, appreciate it though...maybe I am not portraying these questions and statements correctly. Let me summarize what I'm trying to say:
1st point - Aftermarket intake and exhaust systems do not increase power output unless you've upgraded to forced induction
2nd point - ABS module bleed is not necessary, just a regular bleeding of calipers and master cylinder will do
3rd point - Struts are not necessary when lowering your vehicle
Exhaust will increase power that is proven fact. However I do agree with you on the intake issue wholeheartedly I always see how people think $100+ intakes are the best upgrade on a car but time and time again I've seen results showing no gain whatsoever, perhaps the responsiveness is slightly improved but that could just be a placebo affect type difference you expect a difference therefore you notice one. The only thing I would consider "upgrading" my intake for would be if it would take up less room in the engine bay. You should check out mighty car mods video on YouTube about intakes they try several set ups of different intakes and each one gives no gain.
I don't know about #2 I never heard anything either way in fact I didn't know that possible issue existed.
#3 do you NEED struts? No but if you're going to do the suspension especially for performance and handling you should do them as they are an important component. But just for the looks of a lowered car you don't need to unless you're going low enough that struts won't work but for what you mentioned less than 2 inches I don't think it's absolutely needed
2002 Pontiac Sunfire SE Sedan 2.2l Ecotec 4 Speed Auto.
1. Exhaust and intake do not gain horse power, they free it up. You can get HP gains, but that was HP the engine was already capable of but the previous intake/exhaust was restricting.
2. I have run into issues on all three of my J's that had ABS, where if I didn't bleed the ABS module first, the brakes wouldn't bleed properly. I wouldn't get any bubbles out of them, but still have a spongy pedal. The ABS system on our cars sucks.
3. Do you need proper struts when you lower a vehicle? Not necessarily, but if you stick with stock you will have to change them out about every 5-10,000 miles. Stock struts have an average lifespan of about 50,000 miles, now if you lower them, its like have your car permanently fully loaded, with nothing in it. So now your adding additional weight, going over the equivalent maximum weight limit constantly, it just wears them out so fast that you will be changing them out every time you do an oil change, or riding on blown worn out struts.
backpacker3 wrote:Exhaust will increase power that is proven fact. However I do agree with you on the intake issue wholeheartedly I always see how people think $100+ intakes are the best upgrade on a car but time and time again I've seen results showing no gain whatsoever, perhaps the responsiveness is slightly improved but that could just be a placebo affect type difference you expect a difference therefore you notice one. The only thing I would consider "upgrading" my intake for would be if it would take up less room in the engine bay. You should check out mighty car mods video on YouTube about intakes they try several set ups of different intakes and each one gives no gain.
I don't know about #2 I never heard anything either way in fact I didn't know that possible issue existed.
#3 do you NEED struts? No but if you're going to do the suspension especially for performance and handling you should do them as they are an important component. But just for the looks of a lowered car you don't need to unless you're going low enough that struts won't work but for what you mentioned less than 2 inches I don't think it's absolutely needed
1, I'm not sure the exhaust does anything HP wise either, or at least I'm not convinced yet. Exhaust alone? Or exhaust with a re-tune? I don't imagine that after installing a new full exhaust system that the engine (computer controlled) would decide it's time to make more power. Why would it be restricted to begin with?
2, That's funny because until recently I didn't know either, maybe it's because of it's irrelevance in most cases.
3, I don't believe in after market struts, every time I've lowered a car without them it's performed exceptionally well. The idea when lowering from a performance aspect is to reach an over damped state (minimal dampening capabilities) I believe this state or position within the assembly can be found with most factory struts. Though longevity may be an issue...I'm going to follow up with Nic Crosby who also posted a response.
Nic Crosby wrote:1. Exhaust and intake do not gain horse power, they free it up. You can get HP gains, but that was HP the engine was already capable of but the previous intake/exhaust was restricting.
2. I have run into issues on all three of my J's that had ABS, where if I didn't bleed the ABS module first, the brakes wouldn't bleed properly. I wouldn't get any bubbles out of them, but still have a spongy pedal. The ABS system on our cars sucks.
3. Do you need proper struts when you lower a vehicle? Not necessarily, but if you stick with stock you will have to change them out about every 5-10,000 miles. Stock struts have an average lifespan of about 50,000 miles, now if you lower them, its like have your car permanently fully loaded, with nothing in it. So now your adding additional weight, going over the equivalent maximum weight limit constantly, it just wears them out so fast that you will be changing them out every time you do an oil change, or riding on blown worn out struts.
1, How come there isn't any signs of such restriction occurring within an engine without any after market intake and exhaust components?
2, So bleeding the ABS module cured your problem? Most of the time it's the master cylinder holding the air pockets hostage. I'm just confused because I thought since the module was also a central distribution point for the brake lines, the fluid would pass through during normal application of the pedal. Maybe there is some sort of by pass when the module is inactive? That wouldn't make sense though, like some sort of device on a central axis rotating to redirect fluid in during ABS activation and out during a non activated state. Following me here? ABS inactive while driving through the city during stop and go traffic (major brake lines feed into it) and the entire brake system works fine.
3, I saved some information I was going to add to the original post, didn't think it was needed. I know my credibility is very limited because I'm an unknown and essentially a stranger to all of you, but I can assure you that I have no need to lie about the following vehicles, lowered amounts, and mileage applied to factory struts and shocks:
2005 Cavalier Sedan: 1.1 front and .9 in the rear, 25,000 miles no problems.
2003 Cavalier Coupe: 1.6 front and 1.4 in the rear, 41,000 miles, no problems.
1997 Pontiac Firebird 3.8 liter: 1.4 front and 1.4 in the rear, 19,000 miles, no problems.
2001 Ford Mustang 3.8 liter: 1.1 in the front and 7/8 in the rear, 12,000 miles, no problems.
2002 Ford Mustang 3.8 liter: 1.1 in the front and 7/8 in the rear, so far so good.
In terms of mentioning gross vehicle weight I was just using it as an example of the amount of stress factory struts can safely handle, but I definitely understand the stress one would cause on their struts and shocks by lowering it and then adding a ton of weight to the car, I never plan on going that route.
Nic Crosby wrote:1. Exhaust and intake do not gain horse power, they free it up. You can get HP gains, but that was HP the engine was already capable of but the previous intake/exhaust was restricting.
2. I have run into issues on all three of my J's that had ABS, where if I didn't bleed the ABS module first, the brakes wouldn't bleed properly. I wouldn't get any bubbles out of them, but still have a spongy pedal. The ABS system on our cars sucks.
3. Do you need proper struts when you lower a vehicle? Not necessarily, but if you stick with stock you will have to change them out about every 5-10,000 miles. Stock struts have an average lifespan of about 50,000 miles, now if you lower them, its like have your car permanently fully loaded, with nothing in it. So now your adding additional weight, going over the equivalent maximum weight limit constantly, it just wears them out so fast that you will be changing them out every time you do an oil change, or riding on blown worn out struts.
If you have more horsepower after an exhaust system than before then you have gained horsepower regardless of weather you free up what was already there or add new.
The stock exhaust is restrictive but the car was designed to work with it so you don't notice it by using exhaust components that allow higher flow there is less backpressure and the engine doesn't work as hard on the exhaust stroke to push the waste gases out of the cylinders. As nic said freeing up horsepower that was previously being used to get rid of the exhaust. You will gain back that power with an exhaust and retuning with the exhaust will give you even better results.
2002 Pontiac Sunfire SE Sedan 2.2l Ecotec 4 Speed Auto.
Regarding the ABS module bleed... here's GM's take on it, from the 2000 Cavalier service manual:
Quote:
Antilock Brake System Automated Bleed
Perform the automated ABS bleed procedure whenever one of the following conditions occurs:
• Manual bleeding at the wheel cylinders does not achieve the desired pedal height or feel.
• You replace the Brake Pressure Modulator Valve (BPMV).
• Extreme loss of brake fluid has occurred.
• Air ingestion is suspected.
If none of the above conditions applies, use standard bleed procedures. Refer to Hydraulic Brake System Bleeding in Hydraulic Brakes.
This procedure uses a scan tool in order to cycle the system solenoid valves and to run the pump motor in order to purge the air from the secondary circuits. These secondary circuits are normally closed, and are only opened during system initialization at vehicle start up and during ABS operation. The automated bleed procedure opens these secondary circuits and allows any air trapped inside the BPMV to flow out toward the wheel cylinders or the calipers where the air can be purged out of the system.
As for #1.. it's all about sound. The stock intakes are restrictive for noise reasons and sometimes fuel efficiency, not really performance.And #3, from personal experience, riding around on a rather low (Eibach Sportlines) suspension with blown valving in the stock struts, no one wanted to ride in my car because the ride quality was SHIAT!
Caveman wrote:Hey man, thanks for your input. I already understood everything you explained, appreciate it though...maybe I am not portraying these questions and statements correctly. Let me summarize what I'm trying to say:
1st point - Aftermarket intake and exhaust systems do not increase power output unless you've upgraded to forced induction
2nd point - ABS module bleed is not necessary, just a regular bleeding of calipers and master cylinder will do
3rd point - Struts are not necessary when lowering your vehicle
1) explain how people make more power all motor (read: no forced induction)
2) no one cares about ABS.
3) shock dynos would disagree.
anymore obvious trolling?
backpacker3 wrote:
The stock exhaust is restrictive but the car was designed to work with it so you don't notice it by using exhaust components that allow higher flow there is less backpressure and the engine doesn't work as hard on the exhaust stroke to push the waste gases out of the cylinders. As nic said freeing up horsepower that was previously being used to get rid of the exhaust. You will gain back that power with an exhaust and retuning with the exhaust will give you even better results.
This is good information, makes sense now. Thanks! The amount of the force applied by the piston during the exhaust stroke is reduced, therefore freeing up power, excellent!
John Lenko wrote:
As for #1.. it's all about sound. The stock intakes are restrictive for noise reasons and sometimes fuel efficiency, not really performance.And #3, from personal experience, riding around on a rather low (Eibach Sportlines) suspension with blown valving in the stock struts, no one wanted to ride in my car because the ride quality was SHIAT!
Okay, gotcha. So bad struts doesn't necessarily mean bottoming out or excess oscillations, it could also mean a harsher than shi* ride, fine with me!
The noise thing, yes that's right...the second half of some intakes have been referred to as a silencer, kind of resembling a snorkel or tuba.
Good ABS info, still stuck on this though “I'm just confused because I thought since the module was also a central distribution point for the brake lines, the fluid would pass through during normal application of the pedal. Maybe there is some sort of by pass when the module is inactive? That wouldn't make sense though, like some sort of device on a central axis rotating to redirect fluid in during ABS activation and out during a non activated state. Following me here? ABS inactive while driving through the city during stop and go traffic (major brake lines feed into it) and the entire brake system works fine.”
I'll have to seek an ABS internal functions or operating tutorial, internet is limited on this information.
DaFlyinSkwirl (Pj) wrote:Caveman wrote:Hey man, thanks for your input. I already understood everything you explained, appreciate it though...maybe I am not portraying these questions and statements correctly. Let me summarize what I'm trying to say:
1st point - Aftermarket intake and exhaust systems do not increase power output unless you've upgraded to forced induction
2nd point - ABS module bleed is not necessary, just a regular bleeding of calipers and master cylinder will do
3rd point - Struts are not necessary when lowering your vehicle
1) explain how people make more power all motor (read: no forced induction)
2) no one cares about ABS.
3) shock dynos would disagree.
anymore obvious trolling?
1, Your car is a great example, thanks for the help: upgraded injectors and head assembly, high output fuel pump and at this point I'm assuming a re-tune. Other additions, platform to begin with is very light, further weight reduction leads to faster ET's and ¼ miles, rotating resistance decreased, and engine and transmission flex also decreased for faster power transfer. Your excellent times are not just based on all motor, they are also based on common physics principles. I must modify my previous submission with this new information brought to my attention by a squirrel:
“Aftermarket intake and exhaust systems do not increase power output unless you've upgraded to forced induction” OR heavily modified fuel, head and intake assemblies with a custom re-tune.
2, The millions of people on the road with ABS modules, the people who have yet to create a bypass junction or delete block, individuals in snow like conditions and modern automotive brake systems instructor.
3, Okay.
Not sure what you mean.
Dampers slow down spring oscillation. That's their only job. Not supporting weight, not lowering the car, just slowing down oscillation. Pretty much every off the shelf aftermarket lowering spring has a higher rate than stock. A damper designed for 100lbs/in rate isn't valved correctly for 200lbs/in. It WILL wear out sooner than it should.
The GVW of the car and how much weight you put in it only comes into play when you actually bottom out the damper. Most aftermarket ones have built in bump stops to prevent that. Lowering a car does not make it "permanently fully loaded", since the lowering springs are designed to not only lower it but increase the spring rate to compensate for the lowering.
James Cahill wrote:Dampers slow down spring oscillation. That's their only job. Not supporting weight, not lowering the car, just slowing down oscillation. Pretty much every off the shelf aftermarket lowering spring has a higher rate than stock. A damper designed for 100lbs/in rate isn't valved correctly for 200lbs/in. It WILL wear out sooner than it should.
The GVW of the car and how much weight you put in it only comes into play when you actually bottom out the damper. Most aftermarket ones have built in bump stops to prevent that. Lowering a car does not make it "permanently fully loaded", since the lowering springs are designed to not only lower it but increase the spring rate to compensate for the lowering.
I did not fully grasp the spring rate concept till now, makes complete sense. Well then, the increased spring rate is obliviously the reason why aftermarket springs are stiffer. O crap! this is why cutting and chopping factory springs for lowering is a VERY bad idea! Sounds like matching the correct damper rate to spring rate greatly benefits handling characteristics, cool stuff man! Thanks!
caveman wrote:First, I don't understand how an air intake, commonly referred to as CAI or WAI increases power or benefits the performance aspects of the engine in any way. If the engine was starved for air wouldn't you get codes based on richer than normal fuel mixtures, emissions issues, and O2 sensor problems? So if the engine is not begging for more air, how would adding an intake help? Furthermore, doesn't the engine need to have a mechanically justifiable reason to draw in more air? Examples: supercharger, turbocharger or pro-charger. Same with the exhaust, why increase header and piping diameter while adding a higher flowing muffler or catalytic converter, if the engine does not a have a mechanically justifiable reason to do so, again: supercharger, turbocharger or pro-charger. My engine is completely factory based and I can smash the pedal to the floor and get ZERO codes, backfire issues or hesitation. If I don't have any air starvation issues or exhaust flow problems, how would increasing diameter and adding higher flowing components: muffler, catalytic converter and air intake help me in any way? I don't see how the manufacturer could deprive and apply resistance like characteristics to an engine without it showing symptoms of such complications.
Your assumptions and theories are so misfounded, I cannot believe that you truly think them.
if you really do think this, then you need to google search:
how do engines work
how do turbos work
how do superchargers work
how do headers work
how do intakes work
if your results and reading on these topics fail to convince you why your statement is incorrect, then no explanation offered here will do any better.
Caveman wrote:Hey man, thanks for your input. I already understood everything you explained, appreciate it though...maybe I am not portraying these questions and statements correctly. Let me summarize what I'm trying to say:
1st point - Aftermarket intake and exhaust systems do not increase power output unless you've upgraded to forced induction
2nd point - ABS module bleed is not necessary, just a regular bleeding of calipers and master cylinder will do
3rd point - Struts are not necessary when lowering your vehicle
Point 1) To understand how aftermarket intake manifolds(in non fuel injected cars), cold air intake tubes/filter, and aftermarket exhaust(complete, not just mufflers), can free up HP by removing the air flow resistance, do this.
A) Take a plastic straw, a lighter/candle, and a butter knife. Next, heat the straw near the middle, to a near melting point and use the knife to crimp the straw at the melted point.
B) Now try to suck air through the straw. This is your intake.
C) Now place another crimp in the straw.
D) Now try to blow air through the straw. This is your exhaust(Cat and Muffler)
Replacing the corrugated plastic intake, air box and flat filter, with a cold air intake, and hi-flow filter, or porting and polishing the heads, will allow the engine to suck in air easier where the computer will adjust the mixture to compensate for the extra air. Hence slightly increasing the fuel and HP under throttle.
Replacing the stock sand-cast exhaust manifold with a stainless steel one will also allow the exhaust to free from the motor more freely, but effects will he hindered by a stock Cat, and especially a stock muffler. Basically if you ever plan on gaining performance from an exhaust, save up, and do it all at once to actually notice the HP gain.
Although you do gain a HP increase you actually can gain MPG as well since the motor actually doesn't have to work as hard to get you up to speed, and keep you there. However, as we all know, once you release those hidden ponies, it is hard to resist the temptation to use them.
Point 2) I've never had a problem bleeding the brakes, but then again, I have had the reservoir go empty on me. Brake fluid is a specific hydraulic fluid. Hydraulic fluid does not compress under pressure, like water, or other liquids. However, air does compress, and any air in a hydraulic system can cause some sponginess, and heat since the pressure will superheat the air. As for being in the ABS module, IDK, the inner workings of it, but I can imagine it is a complex little module where heat and air could cause problems. I suggest if you do empty your fluid reservoir, and suspect air in the module, why chance it, might as well bleed it.
Point 3) Suspension geometry is a tricky thing. Any time you change it, it effects the entire car (camber, caster, CoG, turning radius, body flex and roll). Personally, I recommend full lowering kits as apposed to just lowering springs(heaven forbid cutting/heating springs), spindles and so on. The suspension geometry has already been figured out, by a mechanical engineer whom has done all the calculations to take in account the CoG, body flex and roll, camber, caster and anything else that could effect drive ability.
Later,
Jack
DaFlyinSkwirl (Pj) wrote:caveman wrote:First, I don't understand how an air intake, commonly referred to as CAI or WAI increases power or benefits the performance aspects of the engine in any way. If the engine was starved for air wouldn't you get codes based on richer than normal fuel mixtures, emissions issues, and O2 sensor problems? So if the engine is not begging for more air, how would adding an intake help? Furthermore, doesn't the engine need to have a mechanically justifiable reason to draw in more air? Examples: supercharger, turbocharger or pro-charger. Same with the exhaust, why increase header and piping diameter while adding a higher flowing muffler or catalytic converter, if the engine does not a have a mechanically justifiable reason to do so, again: supercharger, turbocharger or pro-charger. My engine is completely factory based and I can smash the pedal to the floor and get ZERO codes, backfire issues or hesitation. If I don't have any air starvation issues or exhaust flow problems, how would increasing diameter and adding higher flowing components: muffler, catalytic converter and air intake help me in any way? I don't see how the manufacturer could deprive and apply resistance like characteristics to an engine without it showing symptoms of such complications.
Your assumptions and theories are so misfounded, I cannot believe that you truly think them.
if you really do think this, then you need to google search:
how do engines work
how do turbos work
how do superchargers work
how do headers work
how do intakes work
if your results and reading on these topics fail to convince you why your statement is incorrect, then no explanation offered here will do any better.
I’m well informed of the topics you delivered, thank you. We can always brush up on knowledge though.
I'm just stuck on, why would the manufacturer make such restrictions? Cost...well yes. fuel efficiency...it’s normally stated as yes...or overall power band efficiency (I know incoming air silencing is one). Maybe by restricting numbers the manufacturer could in later years increase them by the means spoken of here. The value would be demonstrating a “new model, with upgrades”.
If by OEM standards they are trying to achieve maximum fuel efficiency as they always say, these restrictions I am speaking of counter act that viewpoint. Yet it has been said that buy adding aftermarket intake and exhaust systems, you can increase fuel efficiency. Now, why wouldn't the manufacturer do this from the get go?
I know a lot of these aftermarket intake and exhaust manufactures make power claims regarding their systems. I think most of the claims are marketing non-sense. I have never seen any before and after dyno numbers from a non aftermarket parts company worker.
I'll consider the fact that I'm throwing random disconnected theories out there. Thanks again for your input.
PRND321 Till I DIE
Old Motor: 160whp & 152ft/lbs, 1/4 Mile 15.4 @88.2
M45 + LD9 + 4T40-E, GO GO GO
Look at the mighty car mods intake myth busting video on YouTube. That shows what happens when you replace the intake without removing a resonator or porting and polishing the head(s) of your engine and so I don't spoil the ending the gains or losses you get proven by multiple dyno tests. It's a very good informative video. Now don't read the rest of this post until after you have finished the video if you're going to watch it
I am sticking to my original thoughts on intakes and that is that they don't do anything. Unless they are a supporting mod for a port and polish. To explain ill reference the straw ilustration in an above post. now imagine you get a new straw and now it works perfectly fine but try to drink a milkshake with it doesn't work so well right? Now get a bigger straw and use that much easier now. The reason for that is because air is entirely different a high speeds it's not as fluid and thin as you think of it as it's thicker and doesn't flow as well. But you're probably thinking now well then an intake with larger tubing and less restriction will help so what's the point? Well now tape the smaller straw to the end of the big one. And try to drink the milkshake again doesn't work again right. Well that's what is intake is like with out a port and polish more air can get through the intake but when it gets to the head nothing has changed and that's the part that really matters that's what actually feeds the cylinders. So while you may feel more responsiveness at low speeds and acceleration around town on the highway it won't make a difference and you still aren't getting more hp.
With the port and polish though the path through the head is larger and better routed so you can actually get more air in the cylinder not to mention that most P&Ps come with a valve adjustment and sometimes adjustments to timing to get more air in the cylinder. Therefore actually improving the amount of horsepower you're producing
2002 Pontiac Sunfire SE Sedan 2.2l Ecotec 4 Speed Auto.
Because Air-Pump
PRND321 Till I DIE
Old Motor: 160whp & 152ft/lbs, 1/4 Mile 15.4 @88.2
M45 + LD9 + 4T40-E, GO GO GO
What springs did you use? "2005 Cavalier Sedan: 1.1 front and .9 in the rear,"
