what kind of cash and parts are we talking to get a 93 cavi with a 5 speed into the 14 sec range i tried to search adn came up with nothing
More than is worth it. Everything will have to be custom made for the pre 96 2.2s.
not as much as wraith apparently thinks youll have to do an engine swap for those low times go check
http://www.domesticcrew.com/
youll probably have to turbo it to get below the 15s but overall this would probably run you 2k if your patient and keep your eyes open for the required parts. you alread have the 5 speed trannny so thats set...
youll have a tough(cough impossible cough) time doing it with the 2.2 ohv....
wicked
Also depends where you live... If you have good junkyards around your area, you can do an engine swap pretty cheap and easy, but if, like me, you have no junkyards for hours and hours, you'll be hard up to find the parts you need, let alone cheaply.
And I said everything would have to be custom because he asked about 2.2 performance. Go to any board and the most common answer you're going to get is do an engine swap.
i know that the easest way is a engine swap but i wana keep it a four cyl for gas reasions and i think that if i change to the 2200 engine then i have to change motor mounts im used to bilding v8 motors
so what kinda parts am i talking
i know that in 94 they used hydrolic lifters ing the 2.2 but did they change the motor mounts?
your not gonna get the 2.2 anywhere near that fast... end of story you can turbo it you can build it but if you want a fast 4cylinder you gotta go with the turbo 2.0 from a sunbird gt, you just wont get the 2.2 ohv into times that are that low....
wicked
I've got to ask why you think the turbo 2.0 can do the job, but the 2.2 can't. The 2.2 has canted valves, better intake and exhaust ports, larger intake runners, a larger throttle body, and a better exhaust manifold in stock form. Better breathing = more horsepower. Why the "never gonna happen" attitude?
-->Slow
I find that most second genners seem to have the "V6 or go home" attitude. Irritating for those of us who have no access to decent junkyards.
The 2.0 can handle lots of boost and a 2.2 can't handle it as well as the 2.0. You can get a 2.0 turbo into the 13's with just a manual boost controller and upping the boost a few pounds and the ECM knows what boost is so it accepts it and adds more fuel, instead of throwing codes etc.. like a non turbo car will do if turbo'd.
I personally dont like the V6's I'd rather stick with a 2.0, as far as I'm concerned it has more potential than the V6's for less and you can get them into 12's (and probobly lower but it still hasent been proven, yet) on the stock bottom end. I still think a turbo v6 would be the coolest thing ever but I have a thing for the 2.0's
But if your really into keeping your 2.2 I say turbo it, all the third gen guys are doing it. You'll just have to custom make everything.
Y'all might also want to mention that 2.0s are notorious for breaking down... They're also hard to find, at least in good condition and for a decent price.
ya...what he said
http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/828063
ok sorry i should have added more details to why i said that. for about 800 dollars youll have a 2.0 turbo in good running condition in your car, where as to put together a decent turbo kit for the 2.2 your looking at about 1200 minimum, the 2.0 can be found cheaply, rebuild kits refute wraiths beliefs that itll break down(200-300 for an engine if you keep your eyes open, 400 for a rebuild kit and 100 for new plugs, wires, liquids etc). Thats first, yes in the long run you can get the 2.2 lower but thats requiring ALOT of custom work since less is made for the 2.2 than even the 2.0 as far as ive noticed looking for 2nd gen stuff. The 2.0 is highly underrated even the NA is quite strong, sure its no quad 4 HO, but its still quite fantastic in my opinion. the turbo 2.0 has great boost potential and
I agree with arch on the fact that v6s if properly tuned and maintained will get better gas mileage than some 4s(i get 24 on my 2.0 N/A)
the only reason i dont condone doing the LT3 swap is the difficulty in finding a good running one close to you(down here by me i cant even find a 3.1 for less than 700...) especially seeing as your tranny would bolt to a 3400, theyre easy to find, can be gotten cheaper than the LT3(cause you can find them easily locally), and the most difficult part of the swap can be gotten cheap from jbodyperformance.com(mounts) or atleast you could not sure if theyre still selling them cheap. that should put you into the 14s if not lower(still not sure what times people with the 3400 are running)
wicked
Ok, I was going to post this last night (right after slowolej's comments), but I had a terribly slow connection at the time, so here it is now-
Juicedz4 has run around 14 without even having it fully tuned yet.
Everyone thinks the 2.2 is a dog, but if its built right, it will handle just about anything you can throw at it and keep on going. There are plenty of people on this site running 14.9 or better with a 2.2
It will definetely require a turbo/supercharger setup, as well as a built bottom end (juiced ran his at 8psi IIRC on the stock bottom end for a while, then built it when he bumped it higher), some sort of porting/polishing since the worst characteristic of the engine is the breathing ability, but, like slow said, its much better than the 2.0.
All that and you should be close. Yes, you can drop in the 94 engine (roller cam). The block is exactly the same (with the exception of the lifters) and uses the same mounts. The 2200 wouldn't be a massive undertaking, but there is more aftermarket for the 2.2, so its kind of a waste.
And, no not everything has to be custom made for 92-94 2.2s, since its exactly the same as 95-97 2.2s. The only thing that needs work is the exhaust, and even then, you could use a 3rd gen downpipe with a tiny tweak and it will fit. The platform is not that much different between 94 and 95+, just the body is.
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After reading the newer comments, I would have to say this- let me reinforce my statement in the last paragraph that the engine is the same as 95-97 2.2s and the platform is very close dimensionally. Unfortunately, the aftermarket doesn't list items based on engine, it lists them based on year/make/model, so if you're looking for parts, you need to know what other cars the engine came in.
If it were me, I would boost the 2.2 since I prefer OHV engines to OHC. The aftermarket for 2.2 is probably larger than the 2.0 because of the year/make/model thing. The block will handle 20psi without sleeving, and there are more than a few forged piston and rod sets available. The only real issue is the fuel system, since there are no aftermarket injectors available for it (NO, the Venom injectors do not count, they are merely blueprinted stockers). There are many people who have worked out the fuel problems- extra injectors, custom manifolds, and slowolej worked out a drop in injector with modified ECM. It is do-able.
If I wanted to keep it N/A, I would definetely drop in a Quad 4. It weighs less than a 60degV6, with roughly the same output (think power to weight ratio). The Quad 4 swap is actually alot easier than its made out to be. All it needs beyond the average engine swap is 1 custom mount.
James wrote:and there are more than a few forged piston and rod sets available
Any names of companies or adresses where I can find those? I'm thinking of a turbo project in the future and it would be really helpfull.
thanx james as you know ive ben doing this resurch for a bout a year adn im looking for a parts list and ball park price list so i can start saving
i read sloj s info and i just dont feel comfortable moding my ecm (reprograming is one thing but solderingis another) so if i could find someone to do that part for me ill pay them and i was wondering exatly what injectors slo used adn i was wondering if he ever put his car on a wideband (im wondering what his air fuel ratio is with the turbo)
also i was hoping i could get a list of companys that provide perf rebild kits for the 2.2
oh and also james if i am doing a compleat rebuild of my 93 can i just convert that block to a hydrolic cam and lifter settup
If you want rods and pistons, I know Eagle makes them. Try searching for a 95 Cav and see what you find. Check some of the sites of businesses that advertise on here (carcustoms, aplusperformance, etc)
As far as I know, Fel-Pro has the only rebuild kit available, there may be others out there, but I would stick with the name brand for something like that. I've never seen a "performance" rebuild kit for the 2.2.
If you want someone to modify your ECM, shoot slow an email. He may do it for a fee. Do some searching in the boost forum for all the posts hes made about the injectors. I have them all bookmarked, but not on this machine. Try "injector problems solved" or something like that.
The lifter valley casting is different between the 93 and 94 block. You wouldn't be able to just drop in the 94 lifters and cam. It would be much cheaper to just use a 94 block instead of having any machine work done.
Yah i realized that the 2.2 would be alot of work,so i didn't do much more to it and i got a 93z 5speed and now i got a tgp motor (turbo 3.1)
and doing a few things and dropping her in.
still gonna be slow prolly
ever think of the 3400 swap?
cavaliers been laid to rest
The saturn is being born
a new cavalier is in the mist
It's interesting to read the comments here.
1st, I have both a 2.0 turbo 89 Sunbird GT, and a 2.2 turbo 93 Cavalier which I've built. The Sunbird currently runs about 12 psi, the Cavalier is just below 7 psi. I've added an intercooler to the Sunbird and done a few other tricks, while the Cavalier is a non-intercooled "basic" turbo car. Both cars are using a Garrett T25 from an 89 Sunbird. The 'Bird has stock exhaust manifold, downpipe and cat but 2.5" cat back and Magnaflow muffler. The Cavalier uses a stock 2.2 exhaust manifold with a turbo Sunbird T25 flange welded on, 2.25" exhaust front to back with aftermarket cat and Walker Dynomax muffler. Both cars are factory 5 spd equipped.
For a given boost level, the Cav has the potential to be faster than the 'bird. I can tell you that right now. The Cav has a numerically higher final drive than the Sunbird MG2 transmission and it takes better advantage of the torque produced by the small turbo. The Cav engine pulls all the way to my shift point, somewhere around 5500 rpm, while the 'bird engine gets really flat around 4500. The valve springs in the OHC engine might be tired, but I believe the majority of the problem is in the factory exhaust manifold. The exhaust outlet isn't much larger than a 1 5/8" pipe. That's not really large enough for big hp #'s. The bird engine comes up on boost so fast and hard that the front tires are about useless in the first 2 gears, then it gets flat at the top of the rpm range. No fun. But at least I can brag about boost level to the people who think that means something.
I own a wideband, but I haven't installed it on the Cavalier. I've been tuning efi with a laptop since 97, long before a wideband was an affordable tool. I started tuning cars when new cars still came with carburetors. I've relied on what I know to tune the 2.2. I have the commanded AFR at 12.2:1 when in power enrichment mode, but I've adjusted it at various rpm and load levels based on that I see on the scantool, what the plugs tell me, what the tailpipe tells me, and what the car feels like. Yeah, I should put the WB on it one of these days for a sanity check. One of these days...
I have some information from back in the day on building the Chevrolet 2.0 OHV engine for racing. I'll gladly share it with anyone interested. Many of the GM parts called out in the book are no longer available, but there's still some interesting reading. The stock 2.2 lower end is strong enough to make a fun street car when tuned correctly imo, but the 93 oil pump is the one to use if building a 94+ block. Stronger rods and pistons will help if you're tuning a mild street engine and you make a mistake, but they're probably not needed below 200 hp. The 2.2 head has some positive features; canted valves, good combustion chamber, guide plates relatively large ports. It's actually not too bad. And the 2.2 uses a timing chain, which means no weekends spent changing timing belts.
As far as the 2.2 turbo injectors, I would recommend converting the intake to top feed. There's nothing wrong with my setup, but overall it's been dang hard to tune with these large injectors. 30# injectors would have been easier, but there's none available for the 93 rail that I can find. Someone did a nice conversion not too long ago for a reasonable amount of $$, and I think that a little creativity could be applied to make it even less expensive. But I'll be glad to help anyone who wants to follow the road I'm going down and use (4) 91 - 93 Saturn SOHC tbi injectors.
-->Slow
thanx slow i yould deff app ne and all help adn info that you could give im kinda in the middle between the v6 swap or the 2.2
I've dug out the ole backup copies of the web page and uploaded 'em.
new page location My ISP moved it a couple of times, but it should be fairly stable at this location. Hope it helps answer some of your questions.
-->Slow
i personaly would swap to a v6 if i was in your situation. if you throw in a 3400, thats 180hp right there for the cost of building a turbo setup to run low boost that would give you about the same. then you could go a couple ways with the 3400, build it up for na or run boost. there are getting to be more parts for the 3400, and guys are getting some pretty respecatable numbers from it. if you turbo it, its a bit more involved than building a 4 cyl tuyrbo setup, but it has been proven before. a guy with a remote mount turbo setup running 10lbs boost, a stock 3400 swapped in, methanol injection with very little tuning ran 12.5 in a 2nd gen.
i live by that old rule of hottrodding, "there is no replacment for displacment". if you can make 300hp from a 2.2l, you can get way more from doing the same things on a v6.
goto moons site theres tons of info on that or goto domesticcrew
cavaliers been laid to rest
The saturn is being born
a new cavalier is in the mist
how about a 4.3L v6, or even a propane powered 4.3L from a yale forklift?
you could probably even use the yale trans., and via a custom driveshaft, a strange 9" axle or dana 44...just a thought.
