for my fuel setup as far as boosting....will it be safe for me to have a S-AFC, and FMU, ~440cc injectors when i boost a 2.2L OHV motor to ~8 - 10psi without runnin HPT??
(hmm....somehow i have to adjust/retard the timing for boost now...)
Is there a way i can do it without HPT?
///ATLANTA~ATNALTA\\\
by the time you spend the money to get everything you need to get a good tune with you will have spent enough to have bought hptuners
Veritas Aequitas
yes, this is true....but, theres the whole ''re-pinning my ecu'' that im having issues with....so, if i cant manage to somehow get my harness re-pinned for a 97 ecu, then ill just have to find an alternative to HPT (if thats possible)
///ATLANTA~ATNALTA\\\
you could try the msd dis-2 digital ignition with boost retard. or just go with hptuners
jake armour wrote:you could try the msd dis-2 digital ignition with boost retard. or just go with hptuners
I also have a '96
I chose DIS-2 and MegaSquirt. I'm not sure if I'll be able to avoid the check engine light, but I'm going to do my best. If I have to re-pin for a '97 ECU then so be it, it's actually easy on my car since the entire wiring harness had already been modified.
fortune cookie say: better a delay than a disaster
I'm gonna have to agree with Notec.
IMO you are far better off using a standalone and making your own harness.
I actually had fun relocating a non-existent computer to my glove box. It allows you to really clean up the engine bay too.
I would use the Megasquirt as a full standalone.
So basically it sounds to me like this would be an okay/safe setup for avoiding HPT??:
(+ criticism welcome)
for fuel system:
-Apexi S-AFC (http://www.speedstash.com/apexi_safc.html)
-Vortech Super FMU (http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/product.php?p=30&cat_key=5)
-Autometer fuel pressure gauge 0 - 100psi (http://www.autometer.com/cat_gaugedetail.aspx?ref=search&gid=3780)
-RC fuel injection 440cc injectors (http://www.rceng.com/Saturated-Injector-SL4-0440-P30C6.aspx)
for ignition/timing adjustment:
-MSD ignition DIS-2 or DIS-4 (http://www.msdignition.com/sci_4.htm)
for boost management:
-Greddy Profec B Spec 2 boost controller (http://www.rx7store.net/product_p/profecspec2.htm)
-Turbo smart Ultra Gate 38, 35mm External Wastegate (http://www.cimotorsports.net/motor-sport-products/turbo-smart-ultra-gate-38-external-wastegate.html)
-HKS universal SSQV Blowoff valve (http://www.racinglab.com/bov-hks-1421-sa001.html)
for engine:
-stock internals, can be boosted up to......8 - 10psi safely, with accurate tune??
the rest of the stuff:
-obviously, the ''standard'' turbo parts....turbo, manifold, oil lines, intercooler, etc., etc....
///ATLANTA~ATNALTA\\\
I would say a FMU set-up is not totally bad. If you can get the SAFC to work (I remember reading some people having issues) then it should be fine. As for retarding the timing DIS-2 works.
As for re-pinning your harness, another option is to get a 97 harness and ECU, this might be easier, and maybe cheaper than having someone re-pin your harness.
FU Tuning
Have you already planned a top feed conversion? Being a 96 ohv you may want to look into that now.
Shadowfire wrote:Have you already planned a top feed conversion? Being a 96 ohv you may want to look into that now.
whats that?? Please explain..
///ATLANTA~ATNALTA\\\
Use the search and type in top feed conversion im sure ull find wut u need to know there wut this is for is pretty much every if not all injecto companies only make top feed injectors urs beingte 2.2 ohv it has sidefeed injectors which u cant upgrade to bigger ones without converting to a 98-02 2200 fuel rail. hope this helps you.
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Stay away from the SAFC, on our cars it modify's the timing, not the fuel. SAFC works by modifying the MAP signal (increasing the voltage to give more fuel). However our cars do not use the MAP sensor in the fueling calculation, the MAP sensor is used in the Timing algorithm (and a small table called the pulse width multiplier).
Also, since your MAP sensor is maxed out as soon as you hit the first .0001psi of boost, adding voltage to an already maxxed out map sensor won't do anything in boost, so its useless for trying to control boosted cars.
4cyltuner.com - Information Source For 4 Cylinder Tuners
Buy stuff from CarCustoms Ebay! Won't be disappointed!
BTW, you should climb under your car and look to see if your ECU has 3 plugs or two. If it has 2 you can just plug in a 97+ computer and call it a day. Not all 96's had the 3 plug computers, and I think none of the 2.2's had them, so I'm pretty sure all you need to do is find a 97 ECU and plug it in. You can even get a 97+ ECU from a 2.4L and use that (you'd have to reflash it to the 2.2L program before starting your car though).
4cyltuner.com - Information Source For 4 Cylinder Tuners
Buy stuff from CarCustoms Ebay! Won't be disappointed!
madking411 wrote:for fuel system:
-Apexi S-AFC (http://www.speedstash.com/apexi_safc.html)
-Vortech Super FMU (http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/product.php?p=30&cat_key=5)
Bandaids only last so long, step up.
madking411 wrote:for engine:
-stock internals, can be boosted up to......8 - 10psi safely, with accurate tune??
Much more than that with an average sized turbo.
John Higgins wrote:As for re-pinning your harness, another option is to get a 97 harness and ECU, this might be easier, and maybe cheaper than having someone re-pin your harness.
Agreed, if you're not modifying your own harness, it will be much cheaper to just replace the whole thing.
Jeremiah Reckner wrote:u cant upgrade to bigger ones without converting to a 98-02 2200 fuel rail.
Not entirely true, but close enough.
Shannen, I found two Saturn injectors in the 'yard last week
fortune cookie say: better a delay than a disaster
ive already climbed under my car, and it has 3 plugs on the harness. i dont know how to modify my harness to fit a 97 ecu. (i already have the ecu as well...). I dont know anyone in my area who does re-pinning of GM ecus, and no one on here seems to know anything about re-pinning as well, so im pretty much stuck behind a brick wall as far as that goes. So, im trying to find a different way around.
also, if i am to stay away from the SAFC, what should i use to control my fuel map/AFR if i dont want to use HPT??
and, with the top-feed conversion, will it run on my 96 wiring and stuff?
(it still confuses me slightly...
)
///ATLANTA~ATNALTA\\\
John Higgins wrote:I would say a FMU set-up is not totally bad. If you can get the SAFC to work (I remember reading some people having issues) then it should be fine. As for retarding the timing DIS-2 works.
As for re-pinning your harness, another option is to get a 97 harness and ECU, this might be easier, and maybe cheaper than having someone re-pin your harness.
Shifted wrote:Stay away from the SAFC, on our cars it modify's the timing, not the fuel. SAFC works by modifying the MAP signal (increasing the voltage to give more fuel). However our cars do not use the MAP sensor in the fueling calculation, the MAP sensor is used in the Timing algorithm (and a small table called the pulse width multiplier).
Also, since your MAP sensor is maxed out as soon as you hit the first .0001psi of boost, adding voltage to an already maxxed out map sensor won't do anything in boost, so its useless for trying to control boosted cars.
i think we all need to discuss the SAFC issues with our cars. most and thats like 98% of all j's, the SAFC will not work, but some ******SOME it will, due to it being a **97 speed density** controlled pcm or also those with a s/c reflash. now this is not perfect, or the greatest way because the timing will be hugely effected but with a 2 bar and some sort of timing retard an SAFC would work fine, but then just bring it back and why not go hpt where you can control both fuel and spark.
to the op, if your having issues and do not want to re-pin just do like i did and take the wiring harness that connects at the firewall, all the way to the pcm out of a 97 and swap it into your 96. no cutting or splicing, no re-pinning, just unbolt the connection right near the firewall and swap out all the wiring, it is much simpler and bolts right up
gmanz24 wrote:
to the op, if your having issues and do not want to re-pin just do like i did and take the wiring harness that connects at the firewall, all the way to the pcm out of a 97 and swap it into your 96. no cutting or splicing, no re-pinning, just unbolt the connection right near the firewall and swap out all the wiring, it is much simpler and bolts right up
Now, i think i understand what you are sayin, but there is this LARGE ''box'' of wires right before the firewall that im kinda havin an issue with...... Does this come completely out of the car, or do i attempt to separate it?
///ATLANTA~ATNALTA\\\
without getting into an argument, with my '96 I decided it was easier to run the approx. 20 wires from a standalone unit to a hole I drilled in the firewall that runs into my glove box.
it was a lot more of a learning experience, IMO, then you would get with a 97 ECU, and you can custom run your wiring to hide it better then GM did it.
Go standalone, and top feed conversion (if you're 2.2). That way, you don't have to waste money on bandaid stuff that only works half as well and costs JUST as much.
Fuel delivery is the most important part of your setup, therefore not worth cheaping out on.
I would also plan for some form of fuel pump upgrade as well. (Some argue an in-tank is the only way, and some say an inline works just as well)
Good luck with your project, there's lots to read up on boosting our cars.
not tryin to start an argument, but i thought that the standalone thing didnt work on ''97% of the jbo's''?? i mean, personally, i dont know if it will or not, b/c im new to the whole boosting thing and im still learnin, but i wouldnt want to spend over $300 on one item and then have it not work after i get done with installing it.
Personally, i like the idea of a standalone better as well, because it seems like it would be more difficult to tune, but more accurate in the end. And if specifically the Apexi S-AFC wont work with our cars, then is there another standalone tuning software/hardware i could use instead of that one?
///ATLANTA~ATNALTA\\\
madking411 wrote:gmanz24 wrote:to the op, if your having issues and do not want to re-pin just do like i did and take the wiring harness that connects at the firewall, all the way to the pcm out of a 97 and swap it into your 96. no cutting or splicing, no re-pinning, just unbolt the connection right near the firewall and swap out all the wiring, it is much simpler and bolts right up
Now, i think i understand what you are sayin, but there is this LARGE ''box'' of wires right before the firewall that im kinda havin an issue with...... Does this come completely out of the car, or do i attempt to separate it?
You can pull it apart, there is a 10mm bolt through the center though, don't forget that
Shifted wrote:BTW, you should climb under your car and look to see if your ECU has 3 plugs or two. If it has 2 you can just plug in a 97+ computer and call it a day. Not all 96's had the 3 plug computers, and I think none of the 2.2's had them, so I'm pretty sure all you need to do is find a 97 ECU and plug it in. You can even get a 97+ ECU from a 2.4L and use that (you'd have to reflash it to the 2.2L program before starting your car though).
Mine definitely is 3 plugs.
madking411 wrote:i dont know how to modify my harness to fit a 97 ecu. (i already have the ecu as well...).
Pull the harness plugs out of the ECU, and swap the wires (cut from old and solder to new) one by one to the new connectors. You'll need a factory service manual from each year, but I can scan the '96 if you decide to go this route.
madking411 wrote:Personally, i like the idea of a standalone better as well, because it seems like it would be more difficult to tune, but more accurate in the end. And if specifically the Apexi S-AFC wont work with our cars, then is there another standalone tuning software/hardware i could use instead of that one?
OHV notec wrote:MegaSquirt.
www.megasquirt.info
fortune cookie say: better a delay than a disaster
OHVnotec wrote:Pull the harness plugs out of the ECU, and swap the wires (cut from old and solder to new) one by one to the new connectors. You'll need a factory service manual from each year, but I can scan the '96 if you decide to go this route.
This actually wouldnt be too much of a problem for me, if there werent 3 or 4 wires of the SAME color that all go to different things... Id be afraid of mixing those up. Plus, the car im building is my daily, so i kinda dont really have time to work out all the kinks should any pop up.
So, when i boost, im gonna do the standalone thing.
. I just dont know which fuel map controller i should get.
///ATLANTA~ATNALTA\\\
fuel map controller?
if you're getting a standalone, you'll create your own fuel delivery map with a laptop based on Manifold Pressure and RPM. (most cases)
If you're still talking about SAFC's, those are not standalones, those are piggybacks.
If you're going to be using a GM Map sensor (which I think most standalones are compatable with) I would just opt for the 3 bar Map sensor if your standalone and its accompanying software can support it!
madking411 wrote:OHVnotec wrote:Pull the harness plugs out of the ECU, and swap the wires (cut from old and solder to new) one by one to the new connectors. You'll need a factory service manual from each year, but I can scan the '96 if you decide to go this route.
This actually wouldnt be too much of a problem for me, if there werent 3 or 4 wires of the SAME color that all go to different things... Id be afraid of mixing those up.
That's why you do them one by one lol. It would only take maybe 3 hours MAX if you're used to the cut, strip, wrap, solder, blow-dry routine.
fortune cookie say: better a delay than a disaster
madking411 wrote:Shadowfire wrote:Have you already planned a top feed conversion? Being a 96 ohv you may want to look into that now.
whats that?? Please explain..
Most important for you. Your engine has side feed injectors and you are not going to simply bolt in 440's. Most aftermarket injectors are top feed and won't work. You will need to changeover to the newer style.
madking411 wrote:So basically it sounds to me like this would be an okay/safe setup for avoiding HPT??:
(+ criticism welcome)
for fuel system:
-Apexi S-AFC-Vortech Super FMU
-Autometer fuel pressure gauge 0 - 100psi
-RC fuel injection 440cc injectors
for ignition/timing adjustment:
-MSD ignition DIS-2 or DIS-4
for boost management:
-Greddy Profec B Spec 2 boost controller
-Turbo smart Ultra Gate 38, 35mm External Wastegate (-HKS universal SSQV Blowoff valve
for engine:
-stock internals, can be boosted up to......8 - 10psi safely, with accurate tune??
the rest of the stuff:
-obviously, the ''standard'' turbo parts....turbo, manifold, oil lines, intercooler, etc., etc....
For ignition you will want an MSD 6212 aka MSD DIS2 Programmable. Its the best choice.
As for the SAFC, some of the cocerns listed here are overblown. Your 96 has some of the best odds of working with it, but there is still a slight chance it won't. Be prepared to change plans if it doesn't. A n Emange can work too.
The following statement...
Shifted wrote:Stay away from the SAFC, on our cars it modify's the timing, not the fuel. SAFC works by modifying the MAP signal (increasing the voltage to give more fuel). However our cars do not use the MAP sensor in the fueling calculation, the MAP sensor is used in the Timing algorithm (and a small table called the pulse width multiplier).
Also, since your MAP sensor is maxed out as soon as you hit the first .0001psi of boost, adding voltage to an already maxxed out map sensor won't do anything in boost, so its useless for trying to control boosted cars.
is inaccurate for many reasons. 1st- your 96 is far more likely to fuel from MAP as opposed to 97-up which most likely fuel from TPS. 2nd- you won't be relying on the SAFC to give you more fuel. Your FMU will do that. You will simply be using the SAFC to fine tune it. 3rd- your MAP will not be max'ed out at only .0001psi of boost. It can see above 0 to 1 or 2psi ok also. But it won't see it either. A check valve will be used to keep it a zero and the SAFC will use the additional range to fine tune the fuel.
madking411 wrote:ive already climbed under my car, and it has 3 plugs on the harness. i dont know how to modify my harness to fit a 97 ecu. (i already have the ecu as well...). I dont know anyone in my area who does re-pinning of GM ecus, and no one on here seems to know anything about re-pinning as well, so im pretty much stuck behind a brick wall as far as that goes. So, im trying to find a different way around.
and, with the top-feed conversion, will it run on my 96 wiring and stuff?
(it still confuses me slightly...)
This actually wouldnt be too much of a problem for me, if there werent 3 or 4 wires of the SAME color that all go to different things... Id be afraid of mixing those up. Plus, the car im building is my daily, so i kinda dont really have time to work out all the kinks should any pop up.
Repinning the PCM isn't really that hard and requires little to no splicing and soldering. You would need a set of donor 97 PCM connectors as well. You simply look at both years diagrams and match up wire colors/circuit #s. Then you take the wire out of the 96 connector (its real easy) and push it into the right hole of the 97 connector and repeat till all are done. The diagrams will take the confusion out of the multiple same color wires for you.
madking411 wrote:not tryin to start an argument, but i thought that the standalone thing didnt work on ''97% of the jbo's''?? i mean, personally, i dont know if it will or not, b/c im new to the whole boosting thing and im still learnin, but i wouldnt want to spend over $300 on one item and then have it not work after i get done with installing it.
Personally, i like the idea of a standalone better as well, because it seems like it would be more difficult to tune, but more accurate in the end. And if specifically the Apexi S-AFC wont work with our cars, then is there another standalone tuning software/hardware i could use instead of that one?
Standalone always works, but is alot of work because it kills other systems on the car.
A piggyback system (SAFC, Emanage) have some history of bad results on newer cars than yours.
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