First off... I'm not trying to start a drama-fest or anything of that nature... I just felt I was a bit stiffed by a JBO member... Here is the deal:
I did a transformer toon for a good friend of mine and I posted the outcome in the Image Manipulation forum to get feed back. This member not only posted in the thread telling me he was interested but he also PMd me and was very good about responding with PMs with me while we were working out me making him one. We worked out the payment, and the deal was once I was complete I would send him a preliminary version and if he wanted me to change a few lil things or whatever I would be more than happy to do so before sending him the high-resolution (non-watermarked) version of it upon receiving payment.
Once I was complete and sent him the preliminary version he told me he didn't have the money at the time and would let me know when he did. Months went by and I re-contacted him and he said that he would still eventually pay me for it, however he was no longer interested in the payment deal we worked out. I had originally informed him the approximation of how much I would charge for it and was well within my price bracket. Doing this toon took me well over 10 hours to complete, it is ALOT of work and I am still willing to work out a payment with him even if it is not what we originally talked about because im not a hard-ass. This was I believe the end of last summer/beginning of fall when we first talked. I think thats a fair amount of time to give him before calling him out, is it not?
I contacted him the other day and have yet to hear back. Again, I am NOT trying to cause a war or anything I just feel I was a bit stiffed and If you REQUEST work from someone, and make an agreement with them, you deserve to be compensated. And if you want to back out on something dont request it in the first place.
Sorry Joey Baggs, but I was really disappointed I waisted 15 hours on something, that you no longer wanted.
I dont wanna comment on what happened other than to say that sux, but
can we see the watermarked version. I wanna c how good ur toons are!
That sucks to hear. Think I remember seeing the watermarked version somewhere.
not so much that I no longer wanted, but i was told one price and timeline, and neither held up to be true. Granted you did great work, and I still love the autobot(which I'm still willing to pay for) but when i do a fiberglass job for someone and give an estimate....i cant come back later and say its gonna be a bit more and a bit late.
Now I realise its a fairly insignifigant amount of money to bicker over, but it's the premise. Like I said previously, I'd be happy to send you a paypal tonight for the origianl price. If that's reasonable to you, then let me know and it's on its way, but otherwise.....I'm sorry for your disappointment.
From my recognition I gave you a base estimate and it was within that amount, even if it was on the higher end. When it comes to doing work for someone, as you know, its hard to give an exact price when you don't know in reality how long it will take. Sometimes to get the right result that the "client" will be happy with it takes a lil longer than expected. If I charged what I make hourly as a graphic designer, the cost of that toon would be well over trippled.
Im not trying to screw anyone and I feel bad charging much for something like a toon even tho it is very time consuming on my part and in reality im short-changing myself. I would never give you a price and assure you it would be that price and change my mind later. I specifically said it would be around a certain amount (i gave you a range) and said I will have to let you know exactly once its completed.
I only brought this up on here because I never heard back from you and was a little concerned about the whole situation. Its not really about the money, its just about the time invested into it and the moral aspect.
As far as the time line, that was certainly a misunderstanding as I thought I had it to you by the date I had recalled you mentioning.
Jazer {AzulKav} Turbo Chica wrote:From my recognition I gave you a base estimate and it was within that amount, even if it was on the higher end. When it comes to doing work for someone, as you know, its hard to give an exact price when you don't know in reality how long it will take. Sometimes to get the right result that the "client" will be happy with it takes a lil longer than expected. If I charged what I make hourly as a graphic designer, the cost of that toon would be well over trippled.
while I appreciate you trying to smear my name, Here is your first PM to me from 8/22/07
8/22/07 wrote: So for now im going to offer to those that are interested, 65-75$ per "autobot"
heres another PM about timeline on 8/23/07
8/23/07 wrote:i have to warn you that i may not be able to get to it this week, and maybe a lil later unless you want it asap, because im starting to install my new head components/turbo tonight or tomorrow so i have ALOT to do with that right now.. that will probably keep my occupied until next week, as i have alot to weld and fab up for the dp/exhuast etc.. but once thats completed ill be able to start whippin that up for you. hope thats not a problem for you.
and my PM reply was "no problem at all. as long as i can get it around the end of sept. or so. that way i have time to get everything ready for importfest in Nov. is that feasable for you?"
your reply on 8/23/07
8/23/07 wrote:certainly is. i speant a good solid weekend on PJ's, so if i find nothing else to do and sit down alllll day long i could potentially have it done in a day or two lol. so pray that its not sunny out 
ill keep you updated as well.
now....fast forward to 9/14/07
9/14/07 wrote:Heya,
Just wanted to let you know i began your Toon. Im really liking this one as well 
Almost done with the outlines so its maybe 1/3 of the way there.
Finished my turbo kav project for the most part, all thats left is fine tuning it really. So thats good news for me Still very exited. The lil OHV is actually about as fast as our modded Cobalt SS/SC and faster than a modded SRT4... Im still in awe. lol.
Ill keep you updated on the Toon.
Now, I send you a PM on 10/16/07 asking "hey, just wondering how the transformer is coming. its a month from Importfest....so I gotta start buttoning up my display. Thanks"
your response on 10/16/07
10/16/07 wrote:Hey,
Its so close to being done, dont worry. Ive just been busy my turbo took a @!#$ on me last week so ive been back working on the car pulling the turbo to rebuild it. >;(
All thats left on the toon is some more highlights/shadows and a rim. I did about an hours+ worth of work a few weeks back and i was literally moving the mouse over towards the save button and my photoshop froze on me. oh boy was i pissed. i refused to look at photoshop for awhile... sorry. but ive since worked on it and its almost done. Ill try to have it finished by this weekend.
and here's your next PM on 10/19/07
10/19/07 wrote:Hey,
Im almost done the toon, I put in a few hours last night and I have only a few more hours left before I can call it complete. Now I was looking back and I mentioned I would probably let these go for 65-75 (varying on the amount of detail and everything possibly more). After the amount of time Ive put in, especially on yours, I have to re-consider my pricing. Im still going to let it go to you for less because i previously told you I would, although in the future I cant do that anymore. Ive probably put in at least 15 hours in so far, and i still have a few more to go. And its especially more difficult then a "regular toon"... So im still debating but I am thinking about 85-90$ for yours. And in the future over 100$.. I hope you understand. Its just incredibly time consuming especially taking into consideration the specific detailing. Like I told you before when im done i will send you a small low-res watermarked version of it to show you what your buying. And upon receiving payment I will send you the high-res version. If for some reason you change your mind after seeing the low res version, thats up to you. I hope you like it though. I like it much better than the one I did for PJ I love the stance of it. And hope you do too... Anyways that was long enough, ill send you an IM or PM when im complete.
I finally recieve the low res version on 10/25/07
So in conclusion, your timeline was month later than I originally asked, which was technically fine as it was still before Importfest, but the reason I needed it in the previous timeline I asked was because I had to dump a ton of money just to try and get to importfest, not to mention I had bought a ring to propose to my fiance' in that same time......hence limited money out of each paycheck to pay you.
Also, the price was not what you originally stated. And I FULLY understand there was a bunch of time involved in doing the autobot, and I can respect that....BUT, like I said before, when I do fiberglass work for people and it takes more time than I anticipated....I cant go back to the customer and tell them its more than what I quoted, and I wouldnt expect them to be ok with paying more than I asked.
Again, Im still willing to send you the original agreed amount today if you want, just say the word, but the only way im paying more than that is if I get n00dz too
you're call
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Friday, May 16, 2008 6:00 AM
You're a graphic designer and you don't require half down before starting?
Lesson learned.
1989 Z24 Convertible - Dust Covered
2006 tC - Dust Covered, but driven more
Hmmm I can see both sides of the argument... however...
Speaking from when I did auto body and painted cars... I could not charge more for a job if it took longer than expected. For example, when I did this one person's car, I had origionally estimated I could have it done in about a week, and gave a price. Putting on a kit, hood, fenders, painting inside and out. Which under most circumstances would have been ample time to have it done and ready to "deliver".
The car, on the other hand, had other ideas. It fought me tooth and nail the whole time, nothing went right, ran into problem after problem. But, I promised it to be done in X time for X price. It wasn't his fault it took longer than I expected, and it would have been unethical, if not illegal, to raise the price because I ran into problems, unless it was something reasonable and he agreed to the change in "contract".
So what did I end up doing? Working over 160-170 hours in a week and a day or two to get it done. It was a day or so after agreed origionally, but there was nothing I could do about it.
Just like with an insurance job, there is an original estimate which is done for parts and labor. Any problems that come up or other parts that are needed have to be approved by the insurance company (the person paying) BEFORE the price can be raised.
From a contract standpoint, I'd have to say if this (for example) went to court, Jazer would be required to produce what was origionally agreed upon for the origional agreed price. There was no mutual change in contract from what I can see, therefore Jazer would be in violation of the contract for not holding up to said contract.
Had Jazer originally said "I'm estimating X dollars, but if it takes longer than expected, it can be up to an extra X amount of dollars", and if Joey had agreed to those terms, Jazer could then charge extra for the excess time over what was originally thought.
As with any contract, written or verbal, the contract cannot be changed unless BOTH parties agree to the changes in contract, unless said contract includes stipulations or clauses for unseen circumstances. If myself and the car owner would have agreed in the contract that I was allowed to charge extra for extra labor that was not forseen beforehand, I could have then charged more money for the extra time put into the car I worked on. But because our "contract" did not include such clause, the price I gave and the days I estimated was what I had to adhere to. He did agree the extra day or so I had the car was fine, but that was a mutual agreement which modified the original contract, but we BOTH agreed.
So I'm sorry Jazer, but legally speaking you should produce what you said for the original price. Just take it as a lesson learned, and make your agreements in the future according to said learned lessons.
(I learned a LOT about contract law from my former employers with all the BS they've put me through. I'm still not a lawyer, but I do know that from a legal standpoint since BOTH of you did not agree to modify your original contract, you still must uphold the original contract as it was stated.)
DEPOSIT.
when i had my tattoo drawn up, it wasnt free.
From now on I will require a deposit but I did not require one from him so thats no big deal.
As far as the price it said I was thinking that much (10$ more than originally planned but I also did tell him that its hard to say and It would vary upon the product itself). However I never said I wasn't willing to work with him hence why I warned him prior to finishing to get his thoughts on it.
lol no noodz sorry
So you waited until after he originally wanted it, fiddled and farted around with your own stuff instead of your promised work and then tried to raise the price on him and he is supposed to be the ass here?
someone wrote:I just feel I was a bit stiffed and If you REQUEST work from someone, and make an agreement with them, you deserve to be compensated. And if you want to back out on something dont request it in the first place.
that same person should know;
I just feel If you PROMISE work for someone, and make an agreement with them, you need to keep your end of the bargain. And if you want to back out or change the deal later on, don't promise it in the first place. You will only waste your time.
I still stand by what I said. I'd bet money a court would say the same thing too.
ToBoGgAn wrote:So you waited until after he originally wanted it, fiddled and farted around with your own stuff instead of your promised work and then tried to raise the price on him and he is supposed to be the ass here?
that's exactly what i thought reading those PM's.
if you're being paid by someone to do something, do it and get it done as soon as possible. don't go play around with other stuff instead and then ask for more money because it's taking you longer to do what you're supposed to be doing for someone who's paying you.
i understand that other things do come up, and sometimes it's either difficult or impossible to complete something on time, but if it's your fault it's not getting done on time, you take the hit instead of passing it on to the customer. if it's the customer's fault that progress isn't being made, that's a different story all together, but it doesn't seem like that's the case here.
Its not that I waited until after he originally wanted, I started on it way before, something happened with my car and it had to be down for a little while. That was an unexpected thing that I NEEDED to get fixed or I wouldn't have a vehicle and could lose my job if I couldn't get there? I'm sorry if that was top priority but I made sure to keep him posted on what was going on and making sure it was ok with him.
The reason I mainly brought this up was his lack of communication with me when I private messaged him and I wanted to straighten it out. Like I said its mainly the moral aspect not just the money...
Ztwenty4door wrote:nasty04cav wrote:I dont wanna comment on what happened other than to say that sux, but
can we see the watermarked version. I wanna c how good ur toons are!
You can check out some of my toons on my site (its still under construction and I dont have much work on there, so disregard some of it
but its where its at right now...)
http://www.jazerdezines.com/cartoonz.html
no worries, we got it all sorted out.
