sadly my engine seems to have developed the famous tick of death....
(ticking noise comming from top of engine in the valve area, sounds much like the sound of a bad/clogged hydraulic lifter on an older V8, mine seems to change loudness based on engine load. when accelerating or engine braking (5-speed) you cant hear it, but when cruising along, or shifting gears, or changes in rpm... it is VERY noticable)
I have been told that this is common on many 2.4L engines, and it is casues by a blockage of an oil passage which starves the cam/valves.
I have heard MANY stories as to what exactly happens to cause the tick, and many stories on how to fix it and keep it from returning. but sadly many of them are conflicting....

so i bring it to the professionals... YOU!

Can someone please explain to me what causes this, and what i do from here....

I have been told everything from "use thicker oil it will stop" to "oh man your screwed, better swap the whole engine" and everything in between....

Most stories seem to agree that just changing the cams and lifters should fix the problem. as long as the clog is gone and wont make it happen again to new parts. but i dont know where this clog even takes place, how to clear it, and how to know if it is gone. So i almost think maybe swapping heads would be safest....

but my engine has 94k on it.... and swapping heads seems like alot of work for an engine with that many miles... so i think if it comes to that, maybe i best just pull the whole engine and drop one in with lower miles. that would be about the same amount of work as a head job... and then i know it is all fresh(er).

obviously, i would like to fix it as easily, and cheaply as possible. but this car IS my livelyhood. i travel ALOT for work, and this car is what keeps me going... so i dont want to be too cheap and cost myself a blown engine in the middle of timbucktoo. if i can patch up my engine and keep it going for a while, and then just prepare for more major work down the road... that would be best in my mind. but you guys tell me.

My guess based on the year of your car is that it is a wrist pin issue. The 02 year is the only year I am aware of that is know for that noise. My 02 2.4 did it as well as a couple others I know. The only way to know would be to pull the head and push down on the top of the pistons at a minimum.

damn... so you dont think it is head/valves at all.... you think it is in the bottom end???

if this is indeed the case, i am assuming a full engine swap would be my best bet, right?
(seems kinda silly to pull a 95k engine just to swap a pin and drop it back in, for that amount of work might as well just yank it and drop in a lower milage engine at that point, no?


my poor baby is sick... someone help me...
(2.4L engine in my cavy is ticking bad... need to make it stop)

or put some forged internals in it and keep this engine.. 94,000 is not high mileage -_-, i have 177,000.


2001 Olds Alero (LD9)
650 whp / 543 ft-lb
@turboalero

I know these things CAN run 200k+ but doesnt mean they all do... sadly, i will admit i neglected my maintenence for a time, and i fear i brought about many of these problems.

I thought about just pulling the engine, fixing these issues, beefing it up a bit, and dropping it back in.... But i am not a pro, just a backyard mechanic with my craftsman tools, i can only do so much... and to send it out to have it all done is $$$$$. I have to imagine a forged bottom end has to cost a ton in parts alone.... and then labor... whew... im afriad to ask. probably could buy a new crate motor with 0 miles for the cost of all that.
i know for $800-900 bucks i can get an engine with 60k on it... and drop it in AS-IS, or beef IT up and not have to worry for a long time...

I guess approaching 100K on any engine worries me... i am not exactly a light foot... and this isnt exactly a young buck anymore... every time i stomp that pedal i fear the worst. And this car isnt just an around town grocery getter. I am lucky if i dont go on at least one 600 mile trip a month, and it is rare a week will go by where i dont have to drive 100 miles away from home. So if something bad happens the cost of a tow alone could easily cost me the difference of a major preventative repair. (not to mention money and time lost at work if i break down and miss a job or have to rent since my car is dead)

Reliabilty, and trust in my car is a big deal to me. so i dont want to waste money needlessly... but if a few hundred bucks can give me security and piece of mind, then i am all for it.... that is money well spent.


so again.... this is why i am here and bring this to you all. i value your knowledge and advice.
so know my desires and needs.... you tell me what would be best for me and my wallet.




my poor baby is sick... someone help me...
(2.4L engine in my cavy is ticking bad... need to make it stop)

Pull the head, oil pan, balance shaft assembly, unbolt rod and push piston/rod assembly out. Install new piston, pin, rings, and rod bearing and reassemble engine. I know its not quite that simple but it also isnt that hard.

you saying i can do that with the engine in the car?
doesnt this all require alot of special tools, and precision stuff...
would i really want to install just ONE piston? and at that install a new piston into an old cylinder (without honing/boring)

and to do this IN the car, sounds like you would need a lift.
and i hear that the "pull the head" part alone is a multi-hour job.

I am not afriad to tackle new things... but engine internals are something i have great fear and respect for.


my poor baby is sick... someone help me...
(2.4L engine in my cavy is ticking bad... need to make it stop)

You can replace just 1 piston. You can do it with the engine still in the car, you dont really need any special tools, and those that you are supposed to use can me replaced with a couple bolts and a straight edge. You dont have to hone the bores. The head is a multi hour job, and if you thought otherwise your being silly. All you have to do is pay attention and get a good manual. Engine work isnt that hard. When I really want to it takes me about 12 hours to assemble my 2.4, install it, and drive the car.

ok... hmmm... interesting....

so you dont think it is a valve or anything in the head at all? You are pretty sure it is the conecting rod? (the pin connecting the rod to the piston, right?)

now i am assuming you wouldnt want to JUST replace the pin... and leave the rod and piston in place.

(i am an all or nothing kinda guy... i either like to do the bare minimum, or do it all out.... like i would rather just replace the pin... or else while i am pulling one piston, i might as well replace and upgrade them all to something beefier. It just sounds to me like all the work is GETTING to them... once your there it sounds pretty easy... so why not do what you can while you are in there... and save yourself having to pull it back apart to do the next pin in a year)

this was also my logic for just yanking the engine if it is going to be as big a job as pulling the head.... My car is a stick, and has nearly 100k on it... so my clutch is going to need replaced soon anyway.... and if i plan to do headers, and pull my SC off for a rebuild... it just makes sence to me to just lump them all into one big project and pull the engine and do it all at once.

again... i want to do the most for the least in the long run. I dont NEED a clutch now, i dont NEED forged internals, i dont need 4 new pistons... but wouldnt i maybe be better off doing it before i need to, than chance going thru the whole 12 hour job again later.

I am told pulling/swapping the head is just about as big or bigger of a job than pulling/swapping the whole engine.

again, i am just puking up what i have heard.... i have no idea if it is true or not.
that is why i am here.


my poor baby is sick... someone help me...
(2.4L engine in my cavy is ticking bad... need to make it stop)

The only way to know for sure what is wrong with your engine is to actualy tear it down and figure it out. If it is the pin then you must replace the piston as well,, otherwise the problem will come back. Its you car and money to do with as you please, so you make the call as to what you do. People make the 2.4 out to be some pain to work on but it isnt.

well, can you confirm or deny for me the speculation about "replacing the head is as much work as swapping an engine"

I just wonder if i maybe should just pull the engine anyway, then do all this stuff you talk about out of the car on an engine stand....

also....

what all goes into "rebuilding" an engine?

Like once i have it out, what all could i do to it on my own to improve it, and renew and prolong its life? and would it be worth the time/expence over just getting a lower milage or rebuilt stock engine.

I just fear one bad pin may just be the start... how do i know other pins wont soon follow? or that this problem has started other problems that i might find as soon as i get it all put back together... (maybe metal shavings from that pin have gotten into some bearings or something and now those will fail next)

yeah, i sound anal.... but nothing worse than spending $500 and an entire week under your car, just to find out you are right back to where you started from a month later.


my poor baby is sick... someone help me...
(2.4L engine in my cavy is ticking bad... need to make it stop)

i think if you have the money and the time, rebuilding it would be the way to go, the experience and the knowledge you'll gain from doing just that is probably priceless, then you'll know ALOT more than if you just dropped in a new engine...

my 2 cents



You pray for a savior, your cries fall on deaf ears -Divine Heresy

If this car is your livelyhood, I'd suggest thinking about an eco swap. Fuel savings plus better reliability will help you out in the long run. Think about the price of gas a year or two from now.

2002 Cavalier 2200 5spd

Yeah because teh 2.4 is bad on gas. Thats why I get almost 30 MPG every day to and from work in my 98 Z. Figure out the added cost of the Eco swap and then figure out how much fuel you would have to save to recoupe the cost. Not sure why everyone says the Eco is so much better.

hmmm and just throw my 2.4L supercharger out too. Cuz ya know, i cant put that on a eco... and superchargers need premium fuel... so yeah, man i could save all sorts of money on gas. Ya know... i didnt want a sporty fast fun to drive Z24 anyway... perhaps i should drop in a 3cyl Geo metro engine.... i will have the most efficient Z24 ever!




my poor baby is sick... someone help me...
(2.4L engine in my cavy is ticking bad... need to make it stop)

Quote:

hmmm and just throw my 2.4L supercharger out too. Cuz ya know, i cant put that on a eco... and superchargers need premium fuel... so yeah, man i could save all sorts of money on gas. Ya know... i didnt want a sporty fast fun to drive Z24 anyway... perhaps i should drop in a 3cyl Geo metro engine.... i will have the most efficient Z24 ever!

Well Ken, if you want to be a smartypants about it, let's think about this for a second...

1. There's nothing wrong with having a fast project car, but you say (several times) "my car IS my livelyhood". I wrench on my Porsche all the time. Is it fast and fun to drive? Yes. Does it decide whether or not I eat? No.

2. Most reasonably intellegent people wouldn't be supercharging a commuter car they depend on for a living, sacrificing fuel economy and reliability.

3. This is a motor that habitually craps itself STOCK, nevermind supercharged. Yeah I know, your uncle's/cousin's/brother's Z is purring like a kitten... for now.

4. Your employer/customers probably care more about you arriving than they do how much fun you had on the way. Business and pleasure don't always mix.

2002 Cavalier 2200 5spd

you are right... it is indeed my livelyhood. I rely on it heavily day in and day out.... does it decide "whether or not i eat" not at all... i have a chevy 1500 and a jeep that i can drive in a pinch.... but talk about gas guzzling....

but with as much time as i spend on the road, it is rather important for me to enjoy it as well. Do you see hairdressers using dollar store scissors? do you give your secretary a all metal folding chair to sit in from 9-5?
people tend to want to enjoy things which they do for most of their day. For me, if i am going to be behind the wheel of my car at 70mpg+ most of the day.... I want something that will get me out of the way of trouble, pass when i want to pass, and keep me smiling all the way to my destination.

oh.. i guess maybe i should also add that i get paid $0.50 per mile i drive for work.... and even premium fuel at $3.50 a gallon (even my worst milage ever i got 300 miles per tank). so say 300 miles, that is $40 to fill up, and $150 back in my pocket.... so i am being PAID $110 per tank of gas. so am i really bothered by my car being fun and fast at the cost of a couple MPG... not so much. (since we are being smarty pants here)

most superchargers will make 100k to 150k no problem. oh and I can have my supercharger rebuilt with a lifetime warranty on parts and labor for $550.... So again... am i really giving up much "reliability" by adding a supercharger to my car... I say not.

habitually craps itself? hmm that is odd.. considering i personally know 5 people with these "habitual crapping" engines, all with over 150k miles, and not a single one of them has so much as an oil leak. Do we need to take a show of hands of people on this board with 2.4L that have broken 170 with no problems? All engines die, but these seem to be in no hurry to do so from anyone that i have heard of. Yeah any engine will choke if you neglect it and beat it... both of which i openly admit to doing on mine, and it still is roaring up to 100k (albiet with a mild tick). so i would like to see you back up your smack talk.

and the eco you are so keen on... it has been out for all of what... 5 years... how many of these have proved their endurance over 150k that you know of? I would have to say they dont quite have a track record long enough to provide a fair comparison. lets bring this back up in 10 years and see how they are doing then.


my poor baby is sick... someone help me...
(2.4L engine in my cavy is ticking bad... need to make it stop)

Yeah only one year was know for a big issue and that is the 02 2.4L. Most of the other issues are the result of neglect. Form my work in the dealer I have seen more broken Ecos than 2.4's so your arguement about the 2.4 being junk is based on what, your car??? I trust the 2.4 far more than the Eco.

i am having this same "tick of death" that started a few days ago. i'm also told i need to rebuild the block... but as i am new to all of this i'm not sure where to go to get the parts... or rebuild kits. i would appreciate any advice!

sorry i but i think there is 5-10 times more ecos on the road than 2.4 so that would make since. but the nice thing about the ecos is you can pick one up for $375 for around 45k-50k $500 if you want under 30k. 2.4 dig deep youll be close to 6-700 for 90k-110k and 900+ for a motor w/ under 80k not to mention that they are no longer produced. but its not worth the money to swap just for gas milage especially since hes already has the toys for the 2.4.

JRTHOMPSON wrote:sorry i but i think there is 5-10 times more ecos on the road than 2.4 so that would make since. but the nice thing about the ecos is you can pick one up for $375 for around 45k-50k $500 if you want under 30k. 2.4 dig deep youll be close to 6-700 for 90k-110k and 900+ for a motor w/ under 80k not to mention that they are no longer produced. but its not worth the money to swap just for gas milage especially since hes already has the toys for the 2.4.

note: only 16-20% of cavaliers were 2.4's (depending on the year) which would explain just about everything you said.

ok... new bit of info here...

someone just pointed out to me that their Z24 had the same noise that mine did (the ticking noise) and they too assumed it was a bad wrist pin... and tore their engine out to fix it, only to find it was nothing but a bad crank bearing. He said that i should drop my oil pan, remove the rod caps and inspect my bearings before i go swapping engines and dumping $1000 into my bottom end.

Does anyone else agree with him? he says 3 hours to inspect bearings is well worth saving $1000 on replacing a whole bottom end.

the big arguement now is "rod bearings make more of a low pitched knock coming from bottom of engine, and wrist pins make more of a upper engine tick" This guy told me his engine sounded like a tick from the top... but everything was fine excpet for the rod bearings. and says sounds alone can be misleading.

some believe the rod bearings are a waste of my time... and some say "it is well worth a try"

so what do you think?


my poor baby is sick... someone help me...
(2.4L engine in my cavy is ticking bad... need to make it stop)

Only one way to now for sure and that is to open it up. Plain and simple. Never seen a main bearing go bad on a 2.4, but the rod bearing is slightly prone to it. Regardless you have to open it up and look. if it hasnt gotten any worse since you first heard it id say it probably isnt the rod bearing. Mine went from a slight tick to a loud knock in about 15 miles.

mine has been a steady slight tick for months now... middle of summer i first noticed it.... it sounds about the same now as when i first noticed it. Hasnt gotten any better or worse, as far as i can tell...
it has always sounded like an old hydraulic lifter tick to me.

I plan to open it up... but dont want to have to open it up 4 times.

if i can rule out wrist pins, then rod bearings are very likely, and then i can leave the engine in the car and just pull the pan and change rod bearings, and hope to drive the rest of the summer that way at least. (buying me time to better plan my engine build for later)

if it is indeed wrist pins.... then i need to turn up the heat and get things moving and make plans to hurry up and yank that engine and get building ASAP. as i cant risk blowing an engine 200 miles away on route to see a customer. Thus having to build my engine to the best i can under duress and on a minimal budget, and little time to shop for parts, research options, and save money.


my poor baby is sick... someone help me...
(2.4L engine in my cavy is ticking bad... need to make it stop)

If the tick hasnt gotten any worse since summer I would have o say it probably isnt a rod bearing. If you did take out a rod bearing you may have also damaged he crank. To take care of a wrist pin issue you dont have to pull the engine. You can leave it in the car.