OK guys a new fun one. Finally got my motor back into the car. All internals are new and block cleaned up and head milled. Dropped the thing back in, gave everything another look to double check, turned it over with no fuel or fire a couple of times, fired her up, and no oil pressure. The light came on and the top end is more noisy than usual. I was thinking that since the motor was actually filled with fluids or anything until 3 months after the oil pump was primed that it had lost the prime.
Well I took the oil filter off, full of oil, so oil pumped thus far. Next I ran a tee so that I have a pressure gauge and my light. The oil will travel 99% of the way through the tube, then no further. The gauge registers no pressure and the top end is still noisy. I checked the check valve on the oil filter mount, opens freely and seems fine.
So, here's where I am at. Oil in pan, oil to filter, oil to sender, none to top end. Any ideas? What am I missing?
Much debris can be loosened and not properly flushed out of oil passageways when a used block is
"vatted" and then not given a final cleaning. Let us know if you have to strip the engine again. I hope not !
Grr...I hope not too. This sucks lol. I have been carless for 4 months, I was so happy when it busted off the other night. But now i'm back to 0. O well you live and you learn.
First thing I'd do is drop the oil pump and use air pressure on the pressure and return sides....it might work !
What engine? OHV? OHCams? Did you have the block boiled out by a shop?
Did you blow out all of the oil passages before reassembly?
Did you blow out the crank before reassembly?
Did you align the oil holes in the bearings with the oil holes in the block and crank?
Did you engage the oil pump drive properly?
I ve seen head gaskets put on backwards cause this problem on other motors before.
OK well I took the block to a machine shop in a town nearby. They "vatted" the block i assume, cleaned it up real nice, they bored it, new crank, rods, pistons, cam, timing. The only thing block-wise that I actually installed was the oil pump. We used the new gasket and installed shaft and all per the manual. I did not blow out the journals. Fail. I am going to follow Leland's advice and blow out the pressure and return holes. I will cross my fingers and hope i dont have to break the whole thing down again because seeing as I dont have a shop or garage, I have to do all of this in the driveway and currently it is 40 degrees and raining (for the next week). Anyways guys any more advice is welcome and I will let you know what works. Feel free to make fun too because obviously I did something wrong. I welcome the learning experience.
O... one more thing that just crossed my mind. Everything in the head is new as well. It was put together with assembly lube, but what is the run time on a fresh block before it should pick up the oil? I was just scared to let it run without the pressure so it has run for a total of maybe 2 minutes since I first cranked it. Also, it is still on jackstands and at an angle so the level might not be at a height where the pickup could reach it. Just an idea.
O yeah and its a 96 2.2 ohv
irishbred . wrote:O yeah and its a 96 2.2 ohv
valve train lubrication on this engine comes up the push rod tubes. I wouldn't worry about any upper end damage but If you don't have oil pressure I'd for sure worry about crank bearing damage!
You did install the oil pump drive gear that goes in the "distributor" hole and it is engaged properly? What about the plastic union piece for the oil pump drive, that is intact as well?
Dave
Most engines have tapered pipe plugs in the oiling circuits which are used to close off drilled holes. These are usually removed during hot tanking to allow the oil passages to be cleaned. I would suspect you have a problem with a missing plug somewhere, or possibly your oil filter bypass is stuck open. Do yourself a favor and don't run the engine any more until you figure out the problem. Use an oil pump priming tool if you can to spin the pump.
Yeah not going to run it any more. The oil filter bypass, is that the check valve? if so it is working properly. and i have no oil leaks so i dont think there is a plug missing.
irishbred . wrote:Yeah not going to run it any more. The oil filter bypass, is that the check valve? if so it is working properly. and i have no oil leaks so i dont think there is a plug missing.
The plugs are sometimes internal. I'm not familiar with the oiling system on this engine, but many others have a plug in an internal oil passage used to redirect oil. The small block chevy is one of them. There is a plug that is actually like a very small freeze plug that taps in to the oil passage from the main cap to the main oil passage through the block. If you leave this particular plug out, the oil will bypass the filter. In the case of this engine, you will still see oil pressure, but the engine wont last for obvious reasons.
Again, ot being familiar with your engine, I will also ask, does the pump require a gasket? If so, make sure it didn't get damaged during installation. Just trying to throw some ideas out there for you.
I just rebuilt one of these.
Obviously by tanking it you put in or had new cam bearings put in. Were the oil holes properly aligned for the cam bearing to the block. There is a oil passage cavity cast in the block but there is a proper orientation of the bearing to the hole. The bearings are also different, 3 different ones if I recall properly and need to go in the proper spots.
You did install new cam bearings.....yes?
You've got the roller lifters properly oriented and the proper retainer in place?
The oil pump has no gasket, it is metal to metal though my gasket kit came with a gasket.
Did you install a new oil pump or reuse the old one? I was tempted to reuse but in the end erred on the side of caution and installed a new one.
The timing gear oiling plug is in place??
Oil pump pickup assembly is in place?
Not saying there isn't one, but I've no clear recollection of an oil passage plug inside the engine. There are several on the outside of the block.
Dumb question but you've screwed the sending unit into the oil sending hole and not one of the many other holes in the block. Unlikely but.......
You say you've hooked up a mechanical gauge. Unscrew the gauge, put the pipe in a can and crank over the engine, is there a strong shot of oil or a dribble? You should have 30 -60 lbs of oil pressure.
Doesn't the oil pump have a plug on it? Was that removed?
I'd jack it up, drain the oil, drop the pan and take a look at the oil pump and related items. It's an easy task on this car. I'd also pull a rod and a main bearing just to make sure no damage was done.
I suspect your oil drive shaft. Almost sounds like it isn't fully engaged but spinning the pump a little by friction but not enough to really pump.
Keep us updated.
Dave
I did not install the cam bearings, the machine shop did. They are a noted performance shop so I hope that they got the basics on this motor. I did install a new pump, shaft and screen. As far as a plug on the pump Im not sure either. I am going to see if the shaft is properly in its place. I wonder if using the gasket has spaced it just far enough away to not work. I am fairly certain the sensor is in the correct hole but i will double check when it stops raining. The oil in the gauge tube raised fine until it got past the top of the engine level, then it went slow and will fill all but about an inch of the tube, doesnt seem like much pressure to me. Guys I really appreciate all of this troubleshooting for my benefit and I will keep you updated.
Ok,
I've got out my GM repair manuals.
The lubrication for the 2.2 is ridiculously simple.
Oil up the pick up tube and into the pump
From the pump it goes into the outer chamber of the oil filter and returns to the engine via the center hole.
If the oil filter is clogged there is a bypass valve that will pump unfiltered oil through the engine.
From the filter it goes to the cam shaft bearing, some goes onto the cam bearing via the oil hole, the rest passes through the oil cavity under each cam bearing goes to the main bearings of the crank shaft. There are the same number of cam bearings as there are main bearings.
It passes through the oil hole to the crank main journal and into the crank itself where it exits into the rod bearings at the rod journals.
From there it exits the lubrication system
The other passage from the filter goes into the hydraulic lifter bore which lubes the lifter and forces the oil up the pushrod to the rocker arms where it exits squirting out the top and lubricating the pivot point of the rocker and oils the valve itself. On the way down there is a dam to direct the returning oil to the cam lobes.
It then drips down to the crankcase to be pumped and filtered again.
The piston itself is splash oiled.
Again, check the oil pump drive. If you installed a gasket under the pump to the block is really no big deal. The critical gasket thickness is in the pump gear chamber itself.
I wonder if that plastic connector broke on you. They should not be cracked and will break if installed cold. They need to be warmed up in hot water or similar before installation.
The oil pressure sender is right there next to the oil filter, upstream of any oil distribution.
You are sure the oil pump drive hex meshed with the drive gear unit that is driven by the cam?? There is some flop to it and it is conceivable that you missed.
Dave
The passages that travel the length of the block to feed the lifters and cam bearings are some of the passages that can have pipe plugs sealing them at the end of the passages. I'm still guessing that one of these plugs was left out. You won't have en external leak, but you will have a large pressure loss if one of these plugs is left out. There are usually plugs behind the timing gear for the camshaft, but again, I'm not sure on this engine if it has a plug there. But almost every engine DOES have plugs sealing the ends of the oil passages where drilling starts when they machine the block.
According to
this, there is a pressed in cup plug for the oil galley that is behind the timing gear. It might be worth a check to see if the plug is there, also, there may be others.
Alrighty guys time for an update. Took the belt off, plugs out, pan and valve cover off. the starter is still on and I am using a remote starter switch so I could see if the oil pump was working. I also changed the oil filter just to see if the other one wasnt defective. Ok well the oil pump is definitely working. it sucked a four quart bucket of oil up in about 20 seconds. The thing is that it leaks right back down through the front of the motor back into the would be pan. Still nothing up top, but at one point in time it did since the rebuild. the rocker arms have oil puddled in top of them but not much and it is not pumping through the pushrods now.
The next step is pulling it all out again and checking the galley plug behind the timing gear as suggested. I was hoping it was something simple but I guess not. O well, live and learn.
I am also going to call the shop that rebuilt it tomorrow to see if they have any ideas. Would one of you guys know where I could get a fluid diagram for this motor? I know they have them for transmissions but I am not sure about for this motor.
Thanks again for any advice you have to offer.
irishbred . wrote:....................I am also going to call the shop that rebuilt it tomorrow to see if they have any ideas. Would one of you guys know where I could get a fluid diagram for this motor? I know they have them for transmissions but I am not sure about for this motor.
Thanks again for any advice you have to offer.
I have it. If you want to get me your email address, I'll scan it and send it along if needed.
Dave
That would be great, something to have. I called the shop and told him what was happening, he said it was definitely the galley plug. he said if i get the motor out and bring it to him he will knock a new one in and pressure it up to make sure it works, if not he says he will re-do the whole thing no cost. I'll keep ya'll updated.
There is a bulletin out on this oil plug. Very important the correct one is put in. I'll locate it for you.
Ok, found it.
Bulletin 87-61-21 March 1998
Title, Timing chain noise conditions.
The plug is GM # 14033197
If your shop popped it out cleaning the block, I'd question them about who is picking up the tab for extra work, extra gaskets and any upper end damage, if any?
They should be aware of such things, this engine isn't at all rare or unusual.
Dave
OK so I dropped the motor off at the shop this morning and the owner said that it was indeed the galley plug and they had actually let a guy go for skipping steps in his work. The plug was in the pan and the guy said that the guy had apparently forgot to stake the plug in with a chisel after he popped it in. They finished up about 2 o clock today and he called to say there was no other damage and he wasn't charging me for the work. He is also giving me the oil pan and timing cover gaskets.
This might sound crazy but my dad has had a lot of work done at at this shop and the time they have taken both rebuilding the motor and fixing this problem, as well as the attitude they have presented, I would probably choose this shop again. (<---run on sentence) Call me crazy.
Anywho, I was hoping to have the motor back in tomorrow but it is supposed to rain, damn nature. But i put insurance on it today and it is registered. I also mounted my tires on the wheels so as soon as the weather clears up, i should be back in my cav after 2 years. Thank god no more neon. Side note, the Neon has got to be the crappiest car ever made. Anyone want to help me blow it up?
Thanks guys for all of your gracious advice and I will post something whenever it is back in working order.
Ok well final update. I got the motor dropped back in and I have spun it over with no fire. Finally got oil through all the pushrods and pressure is at 70psi. Tomorrow I am going to put the plugs back in and tighten the axles back up. Finally have it back in working order and I am so glad. Thank you guys so very much for all of the help and advice you have given me. Maybe one day I can return the favor.
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