Hello all; glad I found this place! I've been searching the various forums all morning, and while I think I have my problems narrowed down, I'd like to get a few more opinions. I've got two separate issues that need addressing, but first, a little background info...

2003 Pontiac Sunfire / 2.2L ecotech / 4 speed auto / 76K miles / original owner

This car was my wife's daily driver since new, and up until a few weeks ago (when I claimed it as a work car when she got something else) it's hardly given me any grief. Since new, all I've had to do is replace the battery every few years (the AZ heat likes to kill batteries) and I believe I replaced the alternator a few years ago. That's it, other than regular maintenance items like brakes and such.

Problem 1 - Engine keeps dying:

A month or so ago, my wife tells me that the car died on her in the middle of an intersection while yielding to traffic; waiting to make a left turn. She put the car in neutral, and it started back up after two tries and she drove the rest of the way home without an issue. No more problems for a good 3-4 weeks. While it might be unrelated, about this time (3 weeks after the dying), I get a CEL about the EVAP system. I put on a new gas cap, but the light refuses to go away. I disconnected the negative cable and the light went off and hasn't come back on. Fast forward to today (about 6 weeks after it died on her): I had to stop by my mother's house on the way home from work, and when I was leaving her place (stopped; waiting on traffic so I could pull onto the roadway), the car dies on me. I kept trying to start the car, probably 20-30 times(!!!), but it just wouldn't stay running. It would immediately start, but then die just as quick. After a minute or so of this, I was able to keep it running long enough to make it a block or so down the road and then it died again. I pull off the roadway, and the same issue; fires right up and then immediately dies. I call a tow truck, and while I'm waiting (maybe 10 minutes elapsed time), I try to start it again just for sh!ts and giggles, and whad'ya know...it starts and runs fine. I cancel the tow and drive home without an issue.

From what I've read, I might need to be concerned with: fuel pump or relay, fuel filter, passlock system, timing chain, etc. Any ideas on where to look first? I honestly don't remember ever changing the fuel filter (although my wife seems to think I have), so I'll replace that this weekend anyway, just to be on the safe side. I've read that I can verify if the timing chain has stretched or not by performing a compression test. I've done this years ago, and still know how to do it, but what are some acceptable numbers for this engine? I know that they need to be within a certain % of each other, but I don't have a baseline number to compare against. If there's anything else I need to check besides what's listed; I'm all ears.

Problem 2 - ticking noise coming from inside the dash

This has been an ongoing issue for quite a while I guess (been happening forever apparently, and I'm just now finding out about it...). When either the A/C or heater is on, there's a ticking noise coming from the vents (inside the dash), and the only way to stop it is to have the vent knob positioned in between recirculate and front vent. Will otherwise click in every position. Again, from what I've read, it sounds like a blend door actuator isn't either opening or closing fully. Is there a good/easy way to get behind there and find the blend door? I can't seem to find any vacuum lines leading from the engine through the firewall, so I don't know if I can check to see if they're leaking or not. Once I can find the door, I'm told that the plastic gear inside might be stripped, and that I might be able to take it apart and turn the gear around (since it supposedly only uses half the gear while in operation). Again, I'm open to suggestions.

Sorry for the novel, I just wanted to make sure that all pertinent information was posted.

Thanks in advance,
WRM

Hey Rich.

Im in Chandler and have had both these issues.

The first one, was my idle air control motor. It is in the throttle body and went bad on mine, causing the car to idle funny sometimes, and die whenever it felt like it. would do it randomly with no worning at all. Replaced it with a new one, and have not had an issues sense. Cleaning yours might be a good place to start.

The fuel pump and filter could also cause your symptoms I suppose. I would start simple and go from there though. I would clean the throttle body and IAC, and change the fuel filter and see if that cures the problems.

As far as the dash clicking. I am willing to bet it is your blend door actuator. Easy solution until replacing the part is just to unplug it. Mine clicked for a few weeks, and I reach up under the glove box, on the far right side, unplugged it and havent heard a sound since, and am not too worried about fixing it. I still have AC just no recirc mode.

I hope this helps you. Feel free to ask more questions.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Wednesday, July 11, 2012 4:06 PM

Well, I cleaned the throttle body and IAC motor this evening; only time will tell if it did the trick. I'm still going to leave it at home until I can replace the fuel filter tomorrow or Friday. Was also able to remove the HVAC controls and unplug the vent selector plug. Like you mentioned, I can't use recirculate now, but I don't have to listen to all the clicking either. I was able to trace the noise down to an area just behind and left of the glovebox well. I was almost to the point of knocking a big hole in the glovebox just to get to it...lol.

Just in case the IAC cleaning didn't do the trick (and assuming the problem was something else entirely), what numbers should I be getting for compression? What about standard fuel pressure?

-WRM

stock compression is 180s i believe....mine is low 160 but all within 3 or 4 psi of each other on a 130k mile motor.
i didnt mean unplug the plug from the back of controls. i mean from behind the glove box. if you get down there and look under the glove box, you can see the accuator or whatever is and the plug. that is the plug you unplug. then you will be able to use every position except recric on the knob.

He pretty much hit everything right ton the head. I'm leaning a little more towards the fuel pump just cause the span of time. Hot weather and low fuel levels can cause a weak fuel pump to act up. but like he said start at the simple stuff first and fuel pressure should be around 60 static. key on engine off. Do a fuel pressure test should give you some answers.

OK, I'll see if I can run fuel pressure and compression tests this weekend; maybe AutoZone has some loaners so I don't have to buy them. As for the HVAC controls, I probably went about it the hard(er) way, but the end result was the same...lol.

-WRM

Quick update: I picked up a new fuel filter tonight and a tester from AutoZone. Before I changed the filter, I checked the pressure; 38PSI static (KOEO) and 60PSI at idle. So, if my pressure is supposed to be 60 static, then I may have a problem there. I'll change out the filter and check the pressure again.

-WRM

is that 38 with out without vac at the regulator. i have mine set to 64 at idle with the vac off. but i am boosted too.

that 38 doesnt mean much to me. you might have a small vaccum leak bleeding it off, or a bad regulator. but like i said that doesnt matter right now. if you have 60 at idle id say thats fine. still change the filter and report back after driving it a bit

I don't know about vacuum at the regulator; I didn't check that (not really even sure where it's located). All I did was screw on the gauge and check it with the key on / engine off and while idling. Is there supposed to be vacuum at the regulator? I've got one of those handheld vacuum pumps/gauges; what kind of vacuum should I expect to see? I'll still change the filter tomorrow though and see how things go.

-WRM

the rubber line about 1/8th inch is the vaccum line....you should have vaccum there. its what makes you fuel pressure go up and down while you drive.

OK, thanks, but where is it located? By the filter?

-WRM

on the regulator on to of the fuel rail.

OK, thanks a bunch...I'll try and go check really quick.

-WRM

OK, apparently either there's no vacuum or I'm an idiot who isn't checking either in the right place or correctly...lol. In the first picture, is the top circle the regulator? And the bottom circle in the same pic, the hose I'm supposed to be checking the vacuum on? If so, the second pic is the type of vacuum pump I have. I connected the circled connector to the circled part on the end of the pump and inserted it into the rubber line shown in the first pic. While running, the gauge doesn't move...is it supposed to?

-WRM

that is the regulator, and the hose connected to the left side of it is what im talking about...u dont need to test vaccum. start the car let it idle, look at gauge. it should change when u take that line OFF the regulator, and should be HIGHER with the line off.

Ok, thanks. Hopefully I'm not being too much of a bother, but let me run through this again just to make sure I'm clear. I can unplug the plastic/rubber line that runs from the left side of the regulator to the air box duct (probably nearest the duct) and connect my gauge there. It won't show anything with the engine off and at idle, but with the car idling, I disconnect that same hose from the left side of the regulator and it should definitely move the gauge (higher)?

Again, thanks for sticking with me through this.

-WRM

no connect the gauge same place you did before.....jsut remove that line to see if the pressure goes up or down.

Alright, apparently something's wrong or I'm completely we-todd-did. I couldn't get a reading either way, no matter which way I check. Here's exactly what I did:

1. Unplug black vacuum line from left side of regulator
2. Plug the vacuum gauge to the same (now unplugged) port on the regulator with a piece of the supplied clear hose between the pump and the regulator
3. Start the engine and let it idle (gauge hasn't moved at all since the beginning)
4. remove the gauge from the regulator (no surge in vacuum or pressure either way)

I've tried having the gauge connected to the left side of the regulator (as outlined above) and at the other end of the hose nearest the air duct, and couldn't get a reading either way. I know the gauge itself works because I can plug the end of the "gun" with my finger, pull the trigger and the gauge will show (and hold) a vacuum.

I'll take the gauge and car with me tomorrow to work and have a few other people with more experience with this stuff confirm the results I'm getting. Oddly enough, I've turned wrenches (as a hobby) for the better part of my life, and this is the first time I've ever messed with a vacuum gauge other than using the pump to bleed brakes. I can't believe I'm having this much trouble with a simple (I'm told) vacuum check...lol.

I'll let you know how everything goes tomorrow.

-WRM

i didnt mean check vaccum pressure....check fuel pressure as you did before, with the hose on and the hose off.......basically check ur fuel pressure like normal.....but take the hose off once..lol

OHH.....lol. I got'cha. Well, that'll have to wait until at least tomorrow when I can pick up the tester again.

-WRM

Ok so if I'm reading this right you said your static fuel pressure was 38 psi. Now this was with the ignition on meaning the fuel pump is primed but the engine itself is off this is important that is what is called a static fuel pressure test and that should read between 55-60 psi and that's a wide margin ideally you would like it at 58-60. What Chris is saying is to test the regulator itself which is also not a bad idea.

To do this plug in your fuel pressure tester and test fuel pressure key on engine running then unplug the vacuum line to the regulator (doesn't matter which end) and monitor the fuel pressure. It should spike since the regulator is no longer doing its job since it lost vacuum. If the pressure stays the same you might want to think about changing that.

But verify for me how you did your static test to get that 38psi reading and that should point us in the right direction.

Yes, a static test with the key on / engine off yielded 38PSI. After starting, it went up to 60.

-WRM

I finally got a chance to change the fuel filter tonight, and holy smokes did it need it... This is the "fuel" that I was able to coerce out of the tank-end of the filter:



It was loaded with these little black particles too:



I was going to run the additional tests with the fuel pressure gauge that we talked about, but AZ closed before I could make it there tonight; I'll test it tomorrow evening. It may all be in my head, but I'd swear that I can feel a difference in throttle response just from changing the filter. Out of the (probably) dozens of fuel filters I've changed in my life, this one was by far the dirtiest.

-WRM

OK, just came back from AZ with some new numbers:

Static pressure differs a bit depending on if the engine was just shut off or has been sitting for a few minutes. When it has been sitting for a few minutes (like in the parking lot at AZ), it read 42PSI when I first checked it (Key on / Engine Off). Then I checked it will the engine was running; 60PSI. I shut off the engine and immediately checked static pressure again; 52PSI. While the engine was running, I disconnected the vacuum line to the regulator (a few times actually, to make sure I did it right), and the pressure never fluctuated from 60PSI. This is actually kind of what I was expecting to see though, since my vacuum pump / gauge never showed a reading while hooked up to the same vacuum line in previous tests. Unless of course, vacuum at that point is so low that it wouldn't register on my gauge?

So, I'm guessing that either the fuel pressure regulator is bad, or I have a vacuum problem? I never thought about it until now, but maybe I could hook up my vacuum pump to the regulator and apply vacuum while the engine is running to see if the pressure changes? If this should be my next step, how much vacuum (ie. how much vacuum would the system normally produce)?

-WRM

ETA: I'm starting to think that this car really doesn't like me driving it 90+ miles every day, because I keep discovering problems...lol. This morning, while pulling out of the driveway, my headlights and instrument panels lights would flicker and go out intermittently (maybe 2 or 3 times in a few minutes time span). I'd switch off the headlights and then turn them back on and everything would be good; weird...

I'm just going to though this out here. This sounds spark related. Sounds like the ignition control module to me.

If you start the car and let it idle will it eventually die?


- Your not-so-local, untrained, uncertified, backyard mechanic. But my @!#$ runs