ok guys here's how it goes.

a lot of people will be confused as to my using an LSJ for all motor stuff, but please read my rod ratio thread in order to understand my reasoning. Also, the LSJ has better internals stock, better aftermarket, and better clutch selection than the L61.

so after my L61 bled to death I was stuck in a position trying to decide what to do.. another L61 or do something a bit crazy... so I decided to do something a bit crazy. LSJ bottom end with the L61 head

so this thread will be an account of my journey through this and comes with information in regards and pictures.



initial information: the L61 has a 6+1 trigger wheel while the LSJ (and all newer ecotecs) have a 60-2 trigger wheel (7x and 58x reluctor wheel) this tells the ignition when to fire. Needless to say, the LSJ won't happily run on the L61 computer if at all. YOU CANNOT SWAP THE RELUCTOR RING OFF THE L61 CRANK its cast on. The only way I can see around this is a stand alone ECU.

well... unless you custom machine a 6+1 trigger wheel, and space it JUST RIGHT we're stuck with the 60-2 wheel. Also, keep in mind you'd have to pull the girdle and the crank in order to install it so the extra electrical flexibility of a stand alone is a nice convenience without having the responsibility of tearing the whole engine apart in order to utilize it. The LSJ has put down around 350hp at the wheels with relative ease when utilizing a turbocharger instead of the M62. It isn't a ticking time bomb unlike the factory L61 at those power levels.

so today's findings yielded these results:

the L61 and LSJ have vastly different cooling systems. The LSJ also has an oil cooler thats piped with coolant. a water-to-oil-cooler if you will. This is mounted on the oil filter boss. Initially i planned on using the LSJ water neck, thermostat housing, and oil cooler but upon further investigation I realized the LSJ thermo housing doesn't like the F23 transmission shifter brackets. pictures...

this is the L61 thermo housing: please note the bevel


this is the LSJ thermo housing: please note the LACK of the bevel


when mounted on the block, the arc of the thermo housing runs dead smack into the boss for the shifter cable brackets. there is NO way to modify the bracket to accommodate this. you cannot modify the thermo housing because its hollow and grinding will cause it to leak.


the L61 thermo housing fits perfectly on the LSJ however.



now this brings up another problem.. since i can't use the LSJ water neck and cooling pipes, I now have two oil holes on the oil filter boss that need to be dealt with. THESE CANNOT BE PLUGGED or else the oil system will not be complete and all the oil will get stuck inside the boss until it blows out the filter thru the hood or cracks the block, and starves the engine of oil. there's two possible ways around this:

1) make a bypass pipe or section to take the place of the oil cooler. you can't run the cooler in place and just plug off the coolant lines because its dead smack in the way of the lower radiator hose. the fore hole is 9/16" and is the OUT hole.. in other words oil will come out of here, and the aft hole with the sleeve in it is 1/2" even, and is the IN hole or oil goes IN here.

looking inside the oil boss you can see a pipe that isn't there on the L61. you can put holes in this pipe to let oil flow from the filter into the block, and then tap the holes on the outside of the boss and plug them.

2) tap the holes on the outside of the oil filter boss and run them to an external oil cooler OR run a small hose from one to the other to effectively "bypass" the oil cooler.

i'll post pictures of this issue tomorrow.

comments/questions


and here's the skwirl being disassembled late last night/ early this morning.

as the swap progresses, I'll post my findings complete with pictures and explanations. Keep this bookmarked as I'll also be setting up a spectre eMS stand alone to run not only fuel but ignition as well on this engine. My factory ECU will still be in place for sub systems and gauge control, but I will nullify it completely with HPT and run the entire engine on the spectre alone.

your crazy....

but as always a good read

Nice... Now DO WORK Son.... Can't wait to see it ..



P&P Tuning
420.5whp / 359.8wtq

John Benham wrote:your crazy....

but as always a good read

x2





RIP JESSE GERARD.....Youll always be in my thoughts and prayers...

gl !



My Cav
I give up...
i'm buying a VW those people love trees, so they should love eachother too... "Andy"

PJ

You know what im up to, but ill have a few still in the bag when it comes to bash time, he he he he

-Ben

sweet, cant wait to see more.

question. what are your main reasons for keeping the L61 head vs. just leaving the lsj block with the lsj head? pm me if you dont want to get off topic, but id like to know more.

http://wot-tech.com/shop/3400/external-crank-trigger/prod_42.html

IMO easier than the alternative unless you are in stand alone land already.. have you tossed around the more mechanic method? The Eco has some fun options once daily driver is out the window

The LSJ will def be a very nice platform to build off of. GL PJ, keep us up.



Sven you totally quarterloafed your computer..

Jrobz23 wrote:unless you are in stand alone land already

the jbody ecu won't be able to accomplish my goals anyway. that would be a very good option tho I must admit ^^^

nice, gotta love your ambition! cant wait...

good stuff, now where the hell are you rebuilding this cause looks like a factory


GMR has got nothing on this

Crazy, just crazy. I hope this works for ya.

*edit* I might have to take a trip to Jersey this summer to see the Skwirl run.


Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Monday, April 14, 2008 7:51 PM

Cool!! I can't wait to see this when your done!! Sounds like alot of fun..

looking great keep up the good work with the ECOTEC motors, like the rest cant wait to see the beast when its finished.



The one, the only, ME.
2465 lbs without me
141 hp @ 6300 (ran out of rpms)
123 ft lbs @ 5200
running lean on stock ECU
megasquirt here i come

With an NA motor theres no excuse for cubic centimeters unless you can rev the HELL out of it.. So is that the main reason for the LSJ's lower piston travel? Are you going to make up the .2 L of a difference with super high compression pistons? (12:1 kinda thing)

SS-J wrote:With an NA motor theres no excuse for cubic centimeters unless you can rev the HELL out of it.. So is that the main reason for the LSJ's lower piston travel? Are you going to make up the .2 L of a difference with super high compression pistons? (12:1 kinda thing)

read his past thread on rod ratio...

http://www.j-body.org/forums/read.php?f=2&i=410974&t=410974

that might give you an idea as to where he is going.

PJ, you have done things for the ecotec that GM hasnt. i give GM for turning the ecotec into one hell of a forced induction motor, but they seem to have given up on the NA side of 4 cyl performance now (minus the somewhat peppy 2.4L eco).

i for one am waiting to hear this thing scream at the top of its lungs while spinning at 8000 rpm lol.

one question though, do you think it would be possible to mate the LSJ or LNF block with a LE5 head? this would give you the benefit of VVT and one hell of a great rod ratio for the block. with some fun after market parts the LSJ/LE5 thing could be one hell of a force to be reckon with.

and on a side note, you must have read alot of honda articles when you were doing your rod ratio reading because this is starting to sound like a LS/B16 (or is it B18) hybrid lol



1997 Cavalier Z24 - 15.647 @ 88.02 MPH

VVT is for street cars. Note how most honda race cars have VTEC disabled/removed. Its only there to give it the tamer, more emissions and fuel economy oriented aspects. In fact, I believe from what PJ told me, the VVT is what makes the LE5 and LNF stuff incompatible with the L61/LSJ stuff. Beyond that, the LE5 head flows better STOCK, but if you know PJ, you know that this build is not going to end with a stock anything, much less a cylinder head.




Arrival Blue 04 LS Sport
Eco
Turbo
Megasquirt
'Nuff said

yeah they only thing stock i expect to see under that hood is the wind shield washer fluid reservoir...

i didnt realize that the VVT would make for such a compatibility issue for that head/block combination. and i see your point on the idea of disabling vtec/VVT, i guess it makes it hard to setup an engine when you virtually much have 2 completely different cam / motor profiles to deal with. on the other hand though, looking at the new Civic Si (K20Z3),the way that motor is set up stock uses vtec very well. also, for those people that use the Hondata reflash for those cars, the vtec band is shifted around a bit to utilize it better. but even from the factory, when you shift up a gear, it pretty much drops you 500 rpm above or below vtec, getting you right back into that power band again.

2 weekends ago now, when i was at the track a friend of mine took out his 08 Si and even for the times he was running seemed to be trapping high trap speeds. his best run was a 15.07 at (around, dont remember exact) 97-98 ish mph. that trap speed seem fairly high to me for that time, would vtec be to blame for it?

anyways, like i said above, i can understand why VVT would be a pain in the ass because when you are doing an all out build it may be harder to build the rest of the motor when you have 2 very distinct profiles to deal with. but for some one not going on as all out of a build as PJ is, would having the VVT head be beneficial (assuming that they are or can be made to be compatible).



1997 Cavalier Z24 - 15.647 @ 88.02 MPH

stupid question , but why not cut and weld a plate to the side of the thremo housing ?

seams like it would allow for the room and better than mickey mousing the oil cooler stuff

^^ it'll cut off the oil flow altogether. there's a blocker inside that would have to be opened up with a dremel. I'm still working out a plan to do something but a flat block-off plate while permanently disabling the cooler provision is an option.

I'm also contemplating blocking the oil squirters to ensure proper lubrication on the mains and rod bearings.


to answer the vtec/vvt question.

vtec works by basically engaging a larger, more aggressive camshaft at a certain RPM so that you can have a nice, well behaved decent gas mileage car while still having a fire breathing monster in the upper rpms. a good video displaying how Vtec works is here:

vtec animation
vtec explanation video

the LE5 and LNF vvt... i'm not sure how it works. but cam phasers may constantly adjust the cam timing to provide a flatter torque curve in which case hooking one up without the proper ecu (ie. a cobalt ecu with vvt control) will be damn near impossible.

so whereas a vvt system COULD be beneficial, vtec is just for the sake of remaining streetable. you don't really need it on a car thats primarily track use.. plus why upgrade your cam without the cool lopey idle?

I believe others have blocked the oil squirters with no negative effects.


PRND321 Till I DIE
Old Motor: 160whp & 152ft/lbs, 1/4 Mile 15.4 @88.2
M45 + LD9 + 4T40-E, GO GO GO

Quote:

plus why upgrade your cam without the cool lopey idle?

100% agreed hahaha



The one, the only, ME.
2465 lbs without me
141 hp @ 6300 (ran out of rpms)
123 ft lbs @ 5200
running lean on stock ECU
megasquirt here i come

Whats the compresion ratio going to be?


Caution: I have an odd sense of humor, so don't be offended by the things I say
MMMM, HIDs

I swear you are the mad scientist of Jbodys...
Where the H are you working on your car ? Looks like a warehouse...

Keep it up!!!

Lol that would be the "Skwirly Motorsports Top Secret Mechanical Engineering Complex"




Arrival Blue 04 LS Sport
Eco
Turbo
Megasquirt
'Nuff said