What's the best option when building a top end setup for boost? I've been told the GM Complete Head package is the best, and also been told the Patriot Bare head with the Ferrera Valvetrain is better. What would you guys recommend?
1997 Sunfire SE
Everything > Patriot
GM > Ferrera
Pm me if your looking for the GM valve train
just out of curiosity, ryan... why is patriot bad?
Riddle me this... riddle me that...
I don't think the valve train that comes with the Patriot supports as high lift as the ferrera or the GM. I think the head itself is not a bad piece though.
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<<<<<2003 Sunfire Sedan>>>>>
their valve train is junk brad, the head itself isnt, but the bare head is like 200 less then the full set up, which speaks wonders about the quality, plus it can only handle 400 lift... with the ferrea set up in the patriot head it would perform well, just not with the valve train it comes with stock
All show, coming soon ---> GO
Casey Schaaf wrote:their valve train is junk brad, the head itself isnt, but the bare head is like 200 less then the full set up, which speaks wonders about the quality, plus it can only handle 400 lift... with the ferrea set up in the patriot head it would perform well, just not with the valve train it comes with stock
Do you have a Patriot head on your car? No.
It is not fair for all you people to trash a product you haven't used. No one with the head has EVER had a problem with it. Just because the vt can only handle a little extra lift doesn't mean it's a bad piece. If you haven't bought the head you have ZERO right to say it's bad.
It's stupid rumors like this (that the Patriot head is bad) that make companies stop making pieces for our cars. They get tired of listening to people who have never seen or used their products talk bad about them and stop making them so people who do want them can't get them.
I used to race cars, now I race myself.
5K PB: 24:50
10K PB: 54:26
Here's something you won't hear me say... almost ever...
I totally agree with hypsy here.
This forum is one of the biggest examples of regular, uninformed information parrotting that I have ever seen on the net.
This goes for both negative and positive comments about just about anything here.
One guy thinks he heard about something.. has no experience, but posts it anyway.
Another takes that, regards it as gospel, and even though he has no experience either, posts it as fact some more.
I wish everyone would stop it... whether they are being positive or negative... and just post what the do know for a fact based on real personal experience.
On to the original question...
Michael Antle wrote:What's the best option when building a top end setup for boost? I've been told the GM Complete Head package is the best, and also been told the Patriot Bare head with the Ferrera Valvetrain is better. What would you guys recommend?
Well, if you are planning to build a full race, 7 sec dragster, definitely go with the GM setup.
If you are building a street car, decide on other parts 1st. Example: What cam are you using? Stock? Performance, under .4" lift? Performance over .4" lift.
Too many people piss away horsepower by putting "race" springs in when only stock would have done fine. Stronger springs take more power to move and if you don't need them, don't waste the power.
On the valve side, you need to know what you are building for 1st, too.
If its a stock rebuild, stock valves are fine and racing valves will only lighten your wallet, not make more power.
If there is an endurance need, stock GM sodium filled valves like used in the 2.0 are probably the best/lowest cost valve for a turbo/supercharged engine that will run at full power for long amounts of time.
Aftermarket SS valves with undercut heads and stems could make more power but can be less durable in longer than 15sec power pulls.
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Holy @!#$....me and Protomec agree on something. Good to see I'm not the only one tired of the repeated crap around here.
Is this the final sign of the apocalypse though?
I used to race cars, now I race myself.
5K PB: 24:50
10K PB: 54:26
For those that like to keep saying the patriot valvetrain is "crap" without any evidence... May I again submit that PJ was running his Patriot stage 2 head up to 8000 rpm REGULARLY without failure until the
GM lash adjuster snapped in half. To this day I don't think anyone has taken the ecotec that high in RPM on PURPOSE..... Now, the Patriot head may not be specced out for high lift, but that doesn't mean the valvetrain is bad. It just means its not capable of high lift. So whether or not it works for your application depends on your cam choice.
Arrival Blue 04 LS Sport
Eco
Turbo
Megasquirt
'Nuff said
I went that high once....definitely wasn't on purpose and I still don't know how it happened when the rev limiter was at 7300 LOL. At least the tach said I went that high....
I used to race cars, now I race myself.
5K PB: 24:50
10K PB: 54:26
I just pulled apart a partriot head.
-The valves are stock replacements (as in design/build quality) that are .5 and 1.0mm oversize..
-The valve seal/spring seat is stock or stock replacement.
-The retainers are titanium.
-The springs are patriots "gold" springs which are an improvement over stock.
-The springs are installed at stock eco installed height (1.21") which isn't their advertised installed height (1.375") which is why they can only handle .400" lift in patriot's complete head, but are advertised as .550" lift springs on their site.
-The spring diameter is larger than stock eco. I don't know if GM redesigned the head or patriot machines the pockets but I have a stock '02? head that won't fit the patriot springs (diameter) without machining. The heads have different GM part #s, so the larger machined seat area could be later model change. If not, patriot is machining for them and they aren't a drop in replacement for stock.
-The patriot "gold" valve spring with its recommended 1.375" lift may be intended to be a Saturn 1.9lt performance spring that nearly fits the Eco so its used.
-The intake valves have a step at the edge of the ground seat which likely hurts flow.
-The exhaust valves have an undercut inside the seat area that strikes me as poor design and seems it would diminish flow.
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I just pulled apart a partriot head.
-The valves are stock replacements (as in design/build quality) that are .5 and 1.0mm oversize..
-The valve seal/spring seat is stock or stock replacement.
-The retainers are titanium.
-The springs are patriots "gold" springs which are an improvement over stock.
-The springs are installed at stock eco installed height (1.21") which isn't their advertised installed height (1.375") which is why they can only handle .400" lift in patriot's complete head, but are advertised as .550" lift springs on their site.
-The spring diameter is larger than stock eco. I don't know if GM redesigned the head or patriot machines the pockets but I have a stock '02? head that won't fit the patriot springs (diameter) without machining. The heads have different GM part #s, so the larger machined seat area could be later model change. If not, patriot is machining for them and they aren't a drop in replacement for stock.
-The patriot "gold" valve spring with its recommended 1.375" lift may be intended to be a Saturn 1.9lt performance spring that nearly fits the Eco so its used.
-The intake valves have a step at the edge of the ground seat which likely hurts flow.
-The exhaust valves have an undercut inside the seat area that strikes me as poor design and seems it would diminish flow.
This is really good info,
So whats your opinion on the package as a complete performance replacement?
"Go Before Show Yo."
CARCUSTOMS.NET, THE BEST SERVICE ON THE ORG!!!
my opinion....
If your just playing around and have no "record breaking" goals then the patroit parts and setup aren't going to really hinder you.
But if want a significanly more durable combination, the valves got to go.
If you really want to run anything better than stock cams, the springs need to go or at least the will head need some significant valve seat machining... machining that I really doubt it can support since none of the GM racing heads have seat machining in that direction at all ever.
In a cost vs. usefullness comparison, the retainers win out, The patriot titanium retainers work well and are probably truly worth about $75 of the $200 cost for all the pieces.
So your only really paying about $125 for patriot's 16 valves, 16 springs and 16 seals and at that, your probably getting a slight bit more than your money's worth.
And what is $125-140 of valve components worth?
An acceptable, basic, race quality, valve/spring setup for an eco should run $500-600 and thats just for entry level good stuff.
Also, I really don't have an evaluation of the Patroit port job yet, nor will I likely really ever. But if I could start this current project over, I would rather have gone with the GM parts right out and skipped this step by step procees I have been going through as I find out the patriot parts aren't going to work for my current project at all.
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Okay let me get this right. The patriot valvetrain, specifically the springs will not fit an 02 eco head unless it is machined? Not a direct replacement? I need to call Patriot to make sure as well, but I believe what you're sayin. Just want you to clarify cause I bought the valvetrain
"FRIENDS DON'T LET FRIENDS DRIVE STOCK"
ok, to be more than perfectly clear...
The one stock head I have, part # 24462304AA, has 1.06" spring seats machined into it.
The Patriot head we have has 1.16" spring seats machined into it.
The stock spring has a 1.03" outside diameter.
The patriot spring has a 1.12" outside diameter.
1.12" is bigger than 1.06" so it won't fit without machining to a larger diameter.
I don't know if any other GM heads have bigger seats, the # I posted does not.
As a correction to my previous info, the exhaust valve material is Stainless Steel.
The test I used for material was a simple "does a magnet stick" test since quality SS valves are made from 300 series SS and 300 series is not magnetic.
Somehow, I only tested the stem of the exhaust valve which is magnetic even on high quality valves, although more of the stem is magnetic than higher quality valves... but the head of the valve is not.
The intake though is still completely magnetic.
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Protomec, looked into it and you're right. Which valvetrain will currently fit as a "bolt on" on my stock head? Ferrea, supertech, mantapart not sure whom else...
"FRIENDS DON'T LET FRIENDS DRIVE STOCK"
I don't know. I haven't researched to far. Almost every spring that is sold for Eco's is some kind of import spring and they all seem to have a required intalled height that is larger than an Eco can do to get a usable lift #.
We are using PSI springs that love the installed height and have perfect lift and pressures for what we are doing.
But the spring seats take even more machining than the patroit ones do (not really hard to do though),
And I have to make completely custom steel spring seat with modified stock stem seals for inner seats (kinda hard).
I did see one listing that seemed to say that 4G63 are in a really similar size situation as the Eco, but I have not been able to verify that at all. Everything I find for 4G63 only says 4G63.. no specs.
BTW Crower has the absolute best spring catalog I have ever seen.
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Thanks.... Would really like to upgrade the valvetrain. So then I'll get the head machined in order to fit the springs? How much and if I'm doing that, what else is within reasonable reach. I looked into P & P not to long ago, wanted almost a grand I think. I'm really asking this cause I can afford to do quite a bit, just not sure if I want to stay all motor right now. But at least P & P for example will always help.
"FRIENDS DON'T LET FRIENDS DRIVE STOCK"
if you really want to see the quality of the gm performance eco head then look at my cardomain site and look at the pics. the quality is utterly amazing and it flows some serious numbers. if it werent for me getting an lsj head and replicating the exact 1400hp eco head that gm uses i would have stuck with my gmpp head in a heartbeat. it is honestly a steal for around 1400. well worth it for proven gm performance. my cardomain is in my profile
Bonnett wrote:if you really want to see the quality of the gm performance eco head then look at my cardomain site and look at the pics. the quality is utterly amazing and it flows some serious numbers. if it werent for me getting an lsj head and replicating the exact 1400hp eco head that gm uses i would have stuck with my gmpp head in a heartbeat. it is honestly a steal for around 1400. well worth it for proven gm performance. my cardomain is in my profile
1400 after employee discount, right?
.......drooooool.
1387 after gm discount at a dealership, but that also includes sales tax
This is my head setup...
-AllEcotec Stainless Valves
-Polished intake and exhaust ports
-Comp Turbo Cams
-Supertech 78lb Dual Valve Springs
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4 Cams...32 Valves...5 Liters...This Could Get Fun!
my setup is extremely ported and polished LSJ head whcih flows 303.3 cfm on the intake side and 261.1 cfm on exhaust side when a stock LSJ head flows 208.5 cfm on the intake side and 149.1 cfm on the exhaust side. 5-angle valve job and machined for .5mm oversized valves. head also o-ringed for the block and copper o-rings. also exhaust cam sensor outlet blocked off.
valvetrain components are:
-GM Racing Adjustable Cam Gear Set
-GM Racing Dual Valve Spring Kit with Ti Retainers, Spring Seats, Valve Stem Seals and Dual Valve Springs
-GM Racing Stainless Steel Intake & Inconel Exhaust .5mm oversized Valve Set
-LSJ Lash adjusters, but am looking into solid lash adjusters
-LSJ Rocker Arms but am looking into Ti Rocker Arms
-Bronze valve guides
-HD Timing Chain Tensioner
-and Comp Cam Turbo Grind Cams
i cannot wait to see what this head will do once boost is pushed through it. very big investment into a head but it flows with the best of them and actually outflows the gm 1400hp eco head. will post pics here soon
Flowsheet
deck view
Intake ports, very big and very shiney
exhaust ports, no holes underneath like the l61 to worry about porting. very nicely ported and polished
Skunk wrote:This is my head setup...
-AllEcotec Stainless Valves
-Polished intake and exhaust ports
-Comp Turbo Cams
-Supertech 78lb Dual Valve Springs[/red]
FAIL!
Same issue as every other spring. Their rated installed height is 35mm (rounded for ease)
Actual Eco installed height is 30mm.
In an Eco your supertech springs coil bind at .385" lift.
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