Happen to come across this. i'm putting it in the peformance section cuz the fuels effect performance. thought it was interesting info for a few reasons....
One thing i thought of was, in the summer, if you do an e-test, you'll get better test results......
It's an explination of one of the reasons that gas is more expensive in the summer.
Winter gas is different than summer gas:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/summer-fuel.htm
Working on obtainting an M-Class license... ?? Hint: 2 wheels.
you do know cars get worse mileage in the winter right?
Needing 2.3 oil pump stuff? PM me...
they put put ethenal in winter fuels, duhhh
Built&Boosted moar
04 Cavalier Turbo r.i.p my baby
2nd place 2009 GM tuner bash qwick 8--holla
The ethanol in winter fuels is to help prevent fuel-line freezing, a very old & still common problem. My solution for that: Run a higher octane gasoline in winter. Since ethanol is commonly added to increase octane, it only makes sense to just use that which has more to it as a preventative measure.
And if winter fuel-mileage really has you down, install a short-ram WAI w/hot-air box above the exhaust manifold. The warmer air will require less fuel to be added to achieve stoitchiometric A/F-ratio, resulting in better mileage. Hey, it's what was done in the carburetor days to help warm-up (To aid fuel vaporization, to permit better air-fuel mixing)!
Go beyond the "bolt-on".
z yaaaa wrote:you do know cars get worse mileage in the winter right?
Really? Why is that? What does that have to do with winter/summer fuel grades?
Matt Gorman(ECOjunkk) wrote:they put put ethenal in winter fuels, duhhh
Yeah, they put it in summer fuels too... "duhhh"
Nickelin Dimer wrote:The ethanol in winter fuels is to help prevent fuel-line freezing, a very old & still common problem. My solution for that: Run a higher octane gasoline in winter. Since ethanol is commonly added to increase octane, it only makes sense to just use that which has more to it as a preventative measure.
No its not! Its there as an additional oxygenate. Thats the same reason its there in the summer too.
Are you saying higher octane fuel is your solution for fuel line freezing or is that solving something else for you?
Nickelin Dimer wrote: ...install a short-ram WAI w/hot-air box above the exhaust manifold. The warmer air will require less fuel to be added to achieve stoitchiometric A/F-ratio, resulting in better mileage.
Not even slightly.
Yes, warmer air is less dense and yes, if the volume stayed constant, it would take less fuel to properly mix with warm air than cold.
But air volume does not remain the same. The mass of the air required to make a certain amount of power stays the same.
This means that if you warm up the incoming air, the driver will simply open the throttle more to let more of the less dense air in to make the same power, therefore using the same fuel anyway.
And actually, since the air is warmer, the amount of spark advance could be reduced causing more fuel and air to be needed.
If warm air helped mileage, wouldn't it already be installed by the manufacturer?
Nickelin Dimer wrote:Hey, it's what was done in the carburetor days to help warm-up (To aid fuel vaporization, to permit better air-fuel mixing)!
Not for warm up, but basically correct. Why does that apply to modern injected economy?
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this has been known for many years, hence the reason i save up 15 gallons of gas before they switch to winter blend so when i park my car i dump in all the summer blend fuel. also helps to have someone working at the station to let me know when they are switching to winter blend.
Doesn't the winter blend of fuel have something to do with retaining the volume of gas when the fuel gets cold sitting in tankers and in the pumps? i know its not the whole reason they do it but doesn't it have something to do in part with that?
(the theory that gas is sold in volume and colder gas is more dense then warm gas so by adding ethanol it makes the gas less susceptible to expansion and contraction.. so in the winter the gas company's aren't not losing any kind of profit from expanding/contracting gas)
its hard evidence... every fuel injected car ive owned gets worse mileage in the winter time. ill just use my 95 grand prix as an example. summer time... gets around 350-380 miles a tank. winter time... be lucky to get 275 miles out of a tank. its done it every year for the past 5 ive owned it.
its because the computer is compensating for the colder weather temperatues and is dumping more fuel in to keep the damn thing running. hmm... sort of like a backwards choke.
ever wonder how those IAT sensor mod resisters ACTUALLY worked on getting the computer to dump more gas into the engine? because they trick it into thinking the air is so cold that thinks its the debt. of winter and it needs it to run.
all that and some of it is the fact most people leave the car running to get it warmed up...
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Wednesday, February 18, 2009 7:30 AM
Needing 2.3 oil pump stuff? PM me...
My gas mileage in my HHR went from around 28mpg to 20mpg when it was -13F outside. LOL
PRND321 Till I DIE
Old Motor: 160whp & 152ft/lbs, 1/4 Mile 15.4 @88.2
M45 + LD9 + 4T40-E, GO GO GO
baahh quit bitching..lol
Built&Boosted moar
04 Cavalier Turbo r.i.p my baby
2nd place 2009 GM tuner bash qwick 8--holla
protomec wrote:z yaaaa wrote:you do know cars get worse mileage in the winter right?
Really? Why is that? What does that have to do with winter/summer fuel grades?
Matt Gorman(ECOjunkk) wrote:they put put ethenal in winter fuels, duhhh
Yeah, they put it in summer fuels too... "duhhh"
Nickelin Dimer wrote:The ethanol in winter fuels is to help prevent fuel-line freezing, a very old & still common problem. My solution for that: Run a higher octane gasoline in winter. Since ethanol is commonly added to increase octane, it only makes sense to just use that which has more to it as a preventative measure.
No its not! Its there as an additional oxygenate. Thats the same reason its there in the summer too.
Are you saying higher octane fuel is your solution for fuel line freezing or is that solving something else for you?
Nickelin Dimer wrote: ...install a short-ram WAI w/hot-air box above the exhaust manifold. The warmer air will require less fuel to be added to achieve stoitchiometric A/F-ratio, resulting in better mileage.
Not even slightly.
Yes, warmer air is less dense and yes, if the volume stayed constant, it would take less fuel to properly mix with warm air than cold.
But air volume does not remain the same. The mass of the air required to make a certain amount of power stays the same.
This means that if you warm up the incoming air, the driver will simply open the throttle more to let more of the less dense air in to make the same power, therefore using the same fuel anyway.
And actually, since the air is warmer, the amount of spark advance could be reduced causing more fuel and air to be needed.
If warm air helped mileage, wouldn't it already be installed by the manufacturer?
Nickelin Dimer wrote:Hey, it's what was done in the carburetor days to help warm-up (To aid fuel vaporization, to permit better air-fuel mixing)!
Not for warm up, but basically correct. Why does that apply to modern injected economy?
now thats some high quality classic ownage.
protomec wrote:z yaaaa wrote:you do know cars get worse mileage in the winter right?
Really? Why is that? What does that have to do with winter/summer fuel grades?
Matt Gorman(ECOjunkk) wrote:they put put ethenal in winter fuels, duhhh
Yeah, they put it in summer fuels too... "duhhh"
Nickelin Dimer wrote:The ethanol in winter fuels is to help prevent fuel-line freezing, a very old & still common problem. My solution for that: Run a higher octane gasoline in winter. Since ethanol is commonly added to increase octane, it only makes sense to just use that which has more to it as a preventative measure.
No its not! Its there as an additional oxygenate. Thats the same reason its there in the summer too.
Are you saying higher octane fuel is your solution for fuel line freezing or is that solving something else for you?
Nickelin Dimer wrote: ...install a short-ram WAI w/hot-air box above the exhaust manifold. The warmer air will require less fuel to be added to achieve stoitchiometric A/F-ratio, resulting in better mileage.
Not even slightly.
Yes, warmer air is less dense and yes, if the volume stayed constant, it would take less fuel to properly mix with warm air than cold.
But air volume does not remain the same. The mass of the air required to make a certain amount of power stays the same.
This means that if you warm up the incoming air, the driver will simply open the throttle more to let more of the less dense air in to make the same power, therefore using the same fuel anyway.
And actually, since the air is warmer, the amount of spark advance could be reduced causing more fuel and air to be needed.
If warm air helped mileage, wouldn't it already be installed by the manufacturer?
Nickelin Dimer wrote:Hey, it's what was done in the carburetor days to help warm-up (To aid fuel vaporization, to permit better air-fuel mixing)!
Not for warm up, but basically correct. Why does that apply to modern injected economy?
Let's see... I've seen winters so cold that pumps with in-ground storage had trouble pumping the lower octane fuels. One station's pumps couldn't even pump 87 at all! But the 93-octane stuff pumped just fine. As for the WAI w/hot-air box... It' couldn't hurt to try it & see what happens, now would it?
Go beyond the "bolt-on".
Nickelin Dimer wrote:The ethanol in winter fuels is to help prevent fuel-line freezing, a very old & still common problem. My solution for that: Run a higher octane gasoline in winter. Since ethanol is commonly added to increase octane, it only makes sense to just use that which has more to it as a preventative measure.
Yeah, they do that because Ethanol doesn't attract any water or anything
Try replacing the word Ethanol with the letters MTBE.
I noticed my gas mileage improving in the winter. Because I don't drive as fast as I do in the summer
Oxygenated fuel,
CRAP.
Chris
'02 Z-24 Supercharged
13.7 @102.45 MPH Third Place, 2007 GMSC Bash SOLD AS OF 01MAR08
SHOoff (Tuner Bash Beer God) wrote:Nickelin Dimer wrote:The ethanol in winter fuels is to help prevent fuel-line freezing, a very old & still common problem. My solution for that: Run a higher octane gasoline in winter. Since ethanol is commonly added to increase octane, it only makes sense to just use that which has more to it as a preventative measure.
Yeah, they do that because Ethanol doesn't attract any water or anything
Try replacing the word Ethanol with the letters MTBE.
I was thinking just that!
YOUNG J: No, you didn't come off as being a smart-ass... at least to me. And by "burn-ability", I imagine you you mean flash-point or vapor-point (The minimal temps a fuel may produce vapors). I totally dig this, as even E85 comes in winter-blends for better light-off. And I'm guessing that those MTBE-content alert stickers I see are in reference to winter-blends. Makes sense if you think about it.
Taetsch: Yes, oxygenated fuel is a bit of a pain... in that the BTUs aren't the same as non-reform fuel. Which costs mileage. Plus, to get it to work right in an older (carb'd) app, you need to re-jet for the viscosity & adjust the choke for a warmer setting to keep it from belching fumes when cold. Ever see the exhaust on a old, carburetor car in the winter? That's what I mean.
Go beyond the "bolt-on".
I have\had a Carbed car...
The "Re Jetting" (just turn the mix screw and look at a 6 gas analyzer.... is for Year round, not just winter.
Less BTU's and having to run richer to keep a stoikiometric AFR...
But its "better" for the environment...LOL
6% More gas used per mile.... for a 3% cleaner fuel...
Good Ol government math.
Chris
'02 Z-24 Supercharged
13.7 @102.45 MPH Third Place, 2007 GMSC Bash SOLD AS OF 01MAR08
Taetsch Z-24 wrote:I have\had a Carbed car...
The "Re Jetting" (just turn the mix screw and look at a 6 gas analyzer.... is for Year round, not just winter.
Less BTU's and having to run richer to keep a stoikiometric AFR...
^All true, pretty much... I mean actually digging into the fuel-float bowls & changing the main-jet. A goofy lil' pain just to retain stoich.
Shame all of us can't do like my dad does... Whenever he visits my brother, he fills his Caravan's tank with E85 (It's a flex-fuel model, BTW) and drives on that out to Peru (Long distance from me). Once he's there, and it's time to leave, he fills it again with the locally available non-reform fuel & drives home. It gives him an injector cleaning on the way there & returns the lost mileage on the way back!
Hey... That math was worse in the Reagan era, IIRC.
Go beyond the "bolt-on".
LOL,
Quadra-jets only had to do that for the secondary's..
No more about the man that made the 90's prosper.
Should have said, "good ol egore government math. ya know, the sky is falling, I invented the internet, pay me to lecture in front of naive collage kids so i can pay for my personal jet, government math."
Chris
'02 Z-24 Supercharged
13.7 @102.45 MPH Third Place, 2007 GMSC Bash SOLD AS OF 01MAR08
Taetsch Z-24 wrote:No more about the man that made the 90's prosper.
The '90s? Reagan was the '80s, doof! Bush & Clinton was the '90s, and we were in a recession at that time.
You know what...? No-more about the '90s at-all for me, thanks. Some of the culture (
Notgrunge) and all of the tech that developed then was all I liked about that decade. And the hell with the vapid MTV-generation, too! That crap was the predecessor to Rush Limbauer & his gang of "Ditto-heads" (Same to you, Steve Dahl!). "Like what we tell you to like..." is
so shades of Big Brother.
Whew! Really had alot built-up in there, huh?
Go beyond the "bolt-on".
Just thought I'd come back & vouch for the whole "winter-blend vapor-point" deal...
Turns out there's truth to this, as I have so found for myself in an odd way:
Whenever I pull the snow-blower outta the shed for the duration of winter, guess what the first thing I do is? That's right! Fill the fuel tank! After the first run of the season, I store it on the enclosed porch for the remainder of the season (Until say... mid-march) between uses. The porch is fairly-well insulated, and the sun shines on it all day. So it gets considerably warmer out there than it may be outside during the day... a difference of 20*warmer on average.
Now... since it gets considerably warmer outside during the later part of the season, guess how warm it gets on the porch where the snow-blower is stored with winter-blend fuel in the tank? And since the winter blend has an greater vapor-point than summer-blend does, just so it vaporizes better in the cold air, guess what happens when it sits in a vented container in a warm environment? I've seen this happen year-after-year & I can tell you what happens... It vaporizes! I've seen about 1/4-1/2 a tank just vaporize because it was sitting in a warmer than expected (intended?) environment. And I know it's not the result of leak-down because I put a good valve in-line on the fuel line, so what else could it be?
I just thought I'd share that finding with y'all, since it seems to clearly support the whole "summer/winter-blend" debacle.
Go beyond the "bolt-on".
Yes, there is definitely a "winter blend" of gasoline. That is fact and not worth debating.
Winter Blend fuel has its formula altered primarily to change its vaporization rates to keep it equal to "normal gas in warmer weather. The reason for doing this is to maintain a better balanced Air/Fuel mixture in colder air. If warmer grade gas is used in cold air, it puddles and causes overly rich pockets in the chamber that cannot be burned and therefore causes more raw fuel (HCs) and improperly burnt fuel (COs) to be sent out the tailpipe (worse emissions).
This has next to nothing to do with Fuel Economy getting worse in winter.
The changes to fuel economy are caused by: The engine's need to run richer (a/f ratio) to maintain the same drivability as it does in warm weather, Driving style changes due to the increased power available from cold dense air (most people tend to drive a bit more aggressively when the engine responds better), and driving conditions being harsher (driving through snow has far more resistance than driving on clean roads).
Nickelin Dimer wrote:Let's see... I've seen winters so cold that pumps with in-ground storage had trouble pumping the lower octane fuels. One station's pumps couldn't even pump 87 at all! But the 93-octane stuff pumped just fine. As for the WAI w/hot-air box... It' couldn't hurt to try it & see what happens, now would it?
I have never seen this happen and I have tested vehicles in cold labs at -40° to -50°F. Gasoline does not "thicken" significantly at any temperature that most populated areas experience. Diesel Fuel, on the other hand, does tend to gel at lower temps. Diesel has a higher wax content than gasoline.
Nickelin Dimer wrote:Taetsch Z-24 wrote:...
Less BTU's and having to run richer to keep a stoikiometric AFR...
^All true, pretty much... I mean actually digging into the fuel-float bowls & changing the main-jet. A goofy lil' pain just to retain stoich....
Stoichiometric for gasoline is approximately 14.7:1. The BTU content of the fuel does is not a factor of this, only the chemical makeup of the fuel compound.
Also, with the exception of electronic feedback carburetors of the '80s, its is unlikely to find a carbed engine that runs at 14.7:1 very much of the time if at all. Due to the poor fuel mixing and then poor cylinder distribution, you will find that most run in the 12:1 to 14:1 range pretty much all the time.
The whole winter/summer fuel thing is little more than an interesting point of trivia for anyone not in the fuel manufacturing business. It is interesting to know about, but it has little effect except for easier starts in cold weather and possible vapor issues in hot weather for the vast majority of people. Even ones doing high performance work.
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Thank-you, sir!
Go beyond the "bolt-on".
