im trying to get a hold of some turbo speced cams. for my turbo build. however ive been hearing most cams are a .400 lift and our springs only take up to .300 and we risk coilbind or floating valves. what cams are safe to run on stock valvetrain? how will i know if its binding or floating a valve?
Stock cams are the only cams that you can safely run on stock springs.
its an old concept. time for something new to take the reigns. - Z yaaaa
technically true. I ran the comp turbo cams on my old car with no issues. and the comp stage 1's were made for stock springs.
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The supertech 78lb kit is cheap insurance when running an aftermarket cam.
If a spring lets go, you may get lucky and "only" bend/break the valve, or you may destroy a cylinder liner/piston as well. Our engine simply wasn't blessed with a wide margin for lift on the stock valvetrain.
IamQwibby (Eco Meatcake) wrote:and the comp stage 1's were made for stock springs.
Where is your proof? I can whip out my cam card for my stage 1 intake cam and prove that they are not.
its an old concept. time for something new to take the reigns. - Z yaaaa
i def know the stage 2's specifically say springs required, doesnt mean people havnt, i actually installed some stage 2's for a buddy in his stock setup, has been going strong since the beginning of summer
Eco cam specs at the bottom.
Turbo cams have the same lift as stage 1s then only difference is that they have less duration and a higher lobe separation angle. Not to mention the differences in lift(which causes coilbind) between stage 1s and stage 3s is only .023 for the intake and .034 for the exhaust. The duration differences are even less. Yes the increased RPMS need stronger valvesprings, but saying that that is the only reason to use them is idiotic.
its an old concept. time for something new to take the reigns. - Z yaaaa
PSI springs solve all issues...
Tinkles wrote:Eco cam specs at the bottom.
Turbo cams have the same lift as stage 1s then only difference is that they have less duration and a higher lobe separation angle. Not to mention the differences in lift(which causes coilbind) between stage 1s and stage 3s is only .023 for the intake and .034 for the exhaust. The duration differences are even less. Yes the increased RPMS need stronger valvesprings, but saying that that is the only reason to use them is idiotic.
i was kidding with you kyle, learn to take a joke, seriously. What I am saying is that in my personal experience the stage 1's can be used on stock springs. sheesh everyone is so uptight
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BuiltNBoosted wrote:PSI springs solve all issues...
True, but for the off the shelf grinds, the supertech 78lb kit works. Ben, Phil, and PJ had this convo at the bash. Ben installed the kit and did the measurements, rather than assuming supertech's installed height was incorrect. The supertech springs use a dished retainer that changes the installed height and DOES allow for more lift (according to their specs, more than enough for comp stage 3), despite the misinformation that's been floating around here.
I was victim to it as well. If I had known they would handle the job, i wouldn't have been stupid and gone with zzp springs the first time around.
IamQwibby (Eco Meatcake) wrote:Tinkles wrote:Eco cam specs at the bottom.
Turbo cams have the same lift as stage 1s then only difference is that they have less duration and a higher lobe separation angle. Not to mention the differences in lift(which causes coilbind) between stage 1s and stage 3s is only .023 for the intake and .034 for the exhaust. The duration differences are even less. Yes the increased RPMS need stronger valvesprings, but saying that that is the only reason to use them is idiotic.
i was kidding with you kyle, learn to take a joke, seriously. What I am saying is that in my personal experience the stage 1's can be used on stock springs. sheesh everyone is so uptight
I dont joke about valvetrains. It is a very serious area of the engine that alot of J body owners want to skimp on. Nothing gets under my skin more than people saying stock spring will hold Comp's cams. Every old school V-8 hillbilly would never thinking about tossing a bigger cam in without upgrading the springs, why are we soo different?
its an old concept. time for something new to take the reigns. - Z yaaaa
oldskool (eco meatcake) wrote:BuiltNBoosted wrote:PSI springs solve all issues...
True, but for the off the shelf grinds, the supertech 78lb kit works. Ben, Phil, and PJ had this convo at the bash. Ben installed the kit and did the measurements, rather than assuming supertech's installed height was incorrect. The supertech springs use a dished retainer that changes the installed height and DOES allow for more lift (according to their specs, more than enough for comp stage 3), despite the misinformation that's been floating around here.
I was victim to it as well. If I had known they would handle the job, i wouldn't have been stupid and gone with zzp springs the first time around.
jon and todd tested this and still proved it wrong.
BuiltNBoosted wrote:oldskool (eco meatcake) wrote:BuiltNBoosted wrote:PSI springs solve all issues...
True, but for the off the shelf grinds, the supertech 78lb kit works. Ben, Phil, and PJ had this convo at the bash. Ben installed the kit and did the measurements, rather than assuming supertech's installed height was incorrect. The supertech springs use a dished retainer that changes the installed height and DOES allow for more lift (according to their specs, more than enough for comp stage 3), despite the misinformation that's been floating around here.
I was victim to it as well. If I had known they would handle the job, i wouldn't have been stupid and gone with zzp springs the first time around.
jon and todd tested this and still proved it wrong.
From
this thread, it looks like everyone was going off the installed height that supertech gave. They were assuming it was wrong, when in fact because of the retainers they use, it is not.
Here is an example. Ben also mentioned at the bash this year installed and did the measurement and it was as supertech states.
So the calculations they did were right, but the assumption on installed height was not. Like i said, I bought into what they said too, and steared clear of the supertech 78lb kit for that reason, but it was all wrong.
Damn hit post too early.
The bottom line is we have several affordable options for off the shelf higher lift cams, with the supertech 78lb kit being the most affordable. If you are willing to put the time, work and money into cams, why not at least get the supertechs and enjoy a very long lived valvetrain/motor?
Tinkles wrote:IamQwibby (Eco Meatcake) wrote:Tinkles wrote:Eco cam specs at the bottom.
Turbo cams have the same lift as stage 1s then only difference is that they have less duration and a higher lobe separation angle. Not to mention the differences in lift(which causes coilbind) between stage 1s and stage 3s is only .023 for the intake and .034 for the exhaust. The duration differences are even less. Yes the increased RPMS need stronger valvesprings, but saying that that is the only reason to use them is idiotic.
i was kidding with you kyle, learn to take a joke, seriously. What I am saying is that in my personal experience the stage 1's can be used on stock springs. sheesh everyone is so uptight
I dont joke about valvetrains. It is a very serious area of the engine that alot of J body owners want to skimp on. Nothing gets under my skin more than people saying stock spring will hold Comp's cams. Every old school V-8 hillbilly would never thinking about tossing a bigger cam in without upgrading the springs, why are we soo different?
I understand but at least lighten up, Stage 1 cams can be used with stock springs period. Anything else, no you need springs.
Vince - the supertechs are a great bang for the buck value, and I will prove you wrong when I run my comp stage 3's on them... Ben wenzel and I had at least a 2 hr long convo on the phone on night as well on springs, and he did every measurement down to the bone and he said they were fine. As ryan said they use a dished retainer. Ben took his wild cams and used those feeler gauges and measured at every possible part of the cycle in a motor. He only went bigger because he wanted 10000 rpm.
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thank you guys its just ive heard of alot of ppl running aftermarket cams on stock valvetrain. ive already got my spare ecoetec motor in the garage on a stand torn down to the head and block with both cams off and roller lifters off. all other motor components are off as well. so if im going for aftermarket cams i should get new springs? how hard are they to replace...? and what is the best turbo cam? i heard you can send cams into webcams.com and they weld and regrind youre old cams into what ever spec you want. for just over $100 a cam. any other tips for valvetrain a soon to be boosted eco should know? oh and one more... do i need to rebalance my crank with the aftermarket low comp pistons and eagle rods?
thanks again this has been very informative.
if it's all apart and ready it would be dumb not to do springs...
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Stage 1 cams are unsafe on stock springs. PERIOD. Word of mouth and assumptions are not proof.
its an old concept. time for something new to take the reigns. - Z yaaaa
Can stage 1 be run on stock drive train yes, but it is still not a good idea.
PRND321 Till I DIE
Old Motor: 160whp & 152ft/lbs, 1/4 Mile 15.4 @88.2
M45 + LD9 + 4T40-E, GO GO GO
Tinkles wrote:Stage 1 cams are unsafe on stock springs. PERIOD. Word of mouth and assumptions are not proof.
Stage 1's will run perfectly fine on Stock springs, I would put money on it. Is it safe for longevity, no. But springs are not a mandatory neccessity with stage 1 cams.
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Fine then, explain why stage 2 & 3 cannot be ran on stock valvesprings and stage 1 can.
its an old concept. time for something new to take the reigns. - Z yaaaa
IamQwibby (Eco Meatcake) wrote: Ben took his wild cams and used those feeler gauges and measured at every possible part of the cycle in a motor. He only went bigger because he wanted 10000 rpm.
well i guess thats why mine has the psi, since im planning on going to atleast 8000rpm
kyle - obviously they have higher lift, and are designed for higher rpm power.
vince - Supertech will handle what I am going to throw at em 20 psi and 7500 rpms. Ben went safe because his cams I believe are 500 lift and and have a crapload of duration.
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Look clearly the firsthand experience some of us have is not as good as whats on paper. I am going to walk away from this thread because what I have seen and what I have done apparently isn't good enough. I am not here to ruin someones engine.
op - good luck with what you choose to do.
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