Ok, I've had this ins the back of my mind for a while...
has anyone heard of a complete LNF or LSJ & F35 swap into a J-body?
I'd love to do a complete drivetrain swap (less brakes) from a '09 Cobalt to a (lets say) 2002 Sunfire GT.
What do you guys/gals think?
and yes, this is within my means... I just want to hear from anyone with experience how tough it is to get latter engines running on earlier cars - I don't want to swap the whole BCM ect if I don't have to.
an LNF swap is going to cost a lot of money, It's cheaper to run a hybrid, LSJ/LE5 bottom end ported L61 head with some nice cams. I did the le5 l61 combo for about 1500$ and thats all parts and can put down some good power... Look into it...
(check my post in photos and media for more info)
LE61T PTE6262 Powered 
p.s. if the pictures don't work, let me know... I have them in a "private" folder - but if I've understood correctly I can share them even though they're private, if I give the link.
Crazy Calgarian! Should be a fun project. Id like to see this done for sure. Good luck
"Straight roads are for fast cars, turns are for fast drivers"-Colin McRae
onecleancavy wrote:Crazy Calgarian! Should be a fun project. Id like to see this done for sure. Good luck
thanks
Because of the Calgary comment you made me look - is that one crazy Calgarian to another?
swapping into another Cobalt shell would be easier... but where's the fun in that?
I always liked the J-body, and think a swap like this would be cool...
but would really like to know if anyone else has tried a full LSJ/LNF+F35 (since either or are dimensionally identical) drivetrain swap into an older car, and what they needed to do to make it work ect. ect. ...
unruhjonny wrote:onecleancavy wrote:Crazy Calgarian! Should be a fun project. Id like to see this done for sure. Good luck
thanks
Because of the Calgary comment you made me look - is that one crazy Calgarian to another?
swapping into another Cobalt shell would be easier... but where's the fun in that?
I always liked the J-body, and think a swap like this would be cool...
but would really like to know if anyone else has tried a full LSJ/LNF+F35 (since either or are dimensionally identical) drivetrain swap into an older car, and what they needed to do to make it work ect. ect. ...
Im sure a few have tried, some posts have come up in my journeys on the org. Has it been done? I dont think so, I could be wrong. I havent done much research into swaps either. I remember something about the electric power steering though. Do a bit of looking through older posts here. Im sure there are wiser ones that will contribute to your post. Like I said good luck!
"Straight roads are for fast cars, turns are for fast drivers"-Colin McRae
Our ECUs do not see boost, let alone control VVT and direct injection. I haven't heard anything about fitting a F35 into a J, but I am pretty sure that it is physically larger than a F23.
The best way would be to swap everything over to the J(and it's probably the only way).
its an old concept. time for something new to take the reigns. - Z yaaaa
Tinkles wrote:Our ECUs do not see boost, let alone control VVT and direct injection. I haven't heard anything about fitting a F35 into a J, but I am pretty sure that it is physically larger than a F23.
The best way would be to swap everything over to the J(and it's probably the only way).
This.
The f35 is larger, so you'll probably have some clearance issues to sort out. Electonics wise, the two platforms don't match up. Like someone else mentioned, the lnf has a electronically controlled power steering system, while the J is vacuum controlled and ran off the end of the intake cam. The J's electronics will not be able to compensate for that, as well as, like Tink said, vvt, direct injection, boost, etc. Even tuning the J ecu will not solve this.
You'll either need to fully swap over all electronics/wiring, etc, and basically make it a cobalt wearing a J shell...or possibaly hack apart/re-pin/re-wire the harnesses and make something compatible...though I'm not sure if that will even work due to the J ecu not being able to "see" a lot of things the new sensors would be throwing at it.
Like phil said, much more practical to mate a lnf/lsj/le5 block w/ trigger wheel to a l61 head and build from there.
If you have hp tuners the wiring is not as bad as you guys make it out to be, leave the J ecu in, run all you sensor for you gauge cluster to it besides crank sensor (speed,temp, ect) use hp tuners to disable all the codes in the J pcm. Get an after market tac and run it off the lnf computer/wiring. just leave the lnf wiring in the engine bay it should only need to be wired to the power, the lnf bcm and the lnf ignition switch. Wire the lnf switch so that the lnf key is always in the ignition and in the on position and have its power wire be the "on" wire from the j body ignition switch and just use the J-for cranking. That might work or it might not. Getting the thing to fit isnt the hard part, getting the wiring to work is. If you were using an lsj you could just go stand alone and make your life easier but I cant think of any stand alones that support DI, if you switched to the LSJ head and used an lsj turbo intake manifold that would also make your life a heck of a lot easier because then you cold just throw a haltec in there to control the engine.
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Sponsored by:
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so why do you all presume the J's ECM(?) would be reused - or am I missing something here?
butmaybe a part of the problem in my confusion is the interchaning of acronym's;
ECM, ECU, ICM, BCM, BCU...
??
I was kinda hoping to not need the Cobalt's Body Control Module, while retaining the Cobalts Engine Control Module - keeping the latter should eliminate any of the hassle trying to get an older ECM to understand/run a newer engine (along the lines of the ongoing LSJ/L61 hybrid thread I read last night)...
But I am not 100% cetain on how inter twined the ECM & BCM are in any of these cars.
I have understood (possibly erraneously) the following;
BCM controls:
-Ignition power (acts as a cut off to the ECM side of things)
-airbags
-stereo
-abs
ECM controls:
-ignition on/off
-engine
-gauges
I would expect this to be more work than a swap into another Cobalt/G5 shell... but think it would still be worth it - it would be the best of both worlds;
+
Being able to control the VVT and direct injection will be the hard part, not to mention making custom trans mounts.
I've pulled the tranny on my buddies SS/TC twice so far and there are 3 trans mounts and only one engine mount. I can tell you that 3 of them (minus the upper engine mount, same idea as a J-body) are no where near the same location in a J-body.
IMO the F35 is garbage.....thats what happens when GM tries to build their own manual transmissions. (My buddy stripped 3rd gear out of his with only 5000mi on the car)
You best bet, buy an 03-05 J and build an LNF hybrid. LNF bottom end, LSJ/L61 top end, you can reuse the turbo.
Sell the F35 and use that money to buy a Quaite LSD for a F23 Getrag.
Thats probably your best bet.
color me lost johnny... did you wreck the balt or something?
Underdog Racing
hmm, your post is making me rethink this.
The F35 is behind the LSJ & LNF for a good reason, it has a much higher torques capacity than the Getrag-F23, or Getrag-282 (it seems that many people these days are forgetting that the 282 also has higher torque capacity than the F23?!)
torque capacity chart
Isuzu MK7:
<160ft/lbs (??)
Getrag-282: 200ft/lbs
Getrag-F23: 170ft/lbs
FDF F35: 260ft/lbs
Considering GM stopped making the 282 after the 1994 model year, that left only the MK7 ans the sole FWD transmission - but with the "detuned" Quad4, that wasn't a real issue;
The F23 came in to serve as an upgrade from the MK7, and the torque rating clearly shows this.
The 2.2L-L61 (2005-2007), 2.2L-LAP (2008+), and .24L-LE5 all received the F23 - but any engines with more hp/tq recieved the F35.
If people are grenading F35's, I can only surmise that there was one of two problems;
1) that specific transmission was a lemon to begin with
2) due to driver abuse/lack of maintenance, or both
You can make a lower torque capacity transmission live behind a higher hp/tq engine - but only as long as you take it easy on 1st and 2nd gears...
Most F35's goodbering up (from what I've read) were of direct result of tuned LNF's with a NLS 1-2nd gear change.
In summary,
1) I will not sell this F35;
2) I will not put a lower torque capacity transmission behind an engine that is a tune away from well over 300ft/lbs of torque.
If anything I'd be interested in putting the F35 in my Grand Am...
But getting back o the engine;
Going away from direct injection (via head swap) will not allow the boost levels the LNF can manage becasue of cooling effects on the piston face - which is a direct result of the DI ~
this would require significant detuning.
I was thinking 300hp/320lb/ft in a completely sleeper Sunfire GT would be seriously cool... but maybe I should just mothball this idea all together?
z yaaaa wrote:color me lost johnny... did you wreck the balt or something?
nah... I happen to have six cars atm;
2x Firebird (which aside from colour look the same)
2x Grand Am
2x Cobalt SS (one wrecked)
I bought hte white car at a smoking deal... and if nothing else it can serve as a parts car incase I grenade anything... the original owner has tried, then backed out twice on buying the car back (I've given him bids btw).
So you want to take the engine out of a car with a lot of aftermarket support and put it in a car with a virtually non-existant aftermarket? Did I get that right? Id like to see it done but it strikes me as a worthless endeavor.
oh ok. id say go for it man.
Underdog Racing
The only way this will work is if you swap EVERYTHING! I have been looking into doing something similar, but have decided against it. I'm going to make people cry by doing something else
Also, if the car had a RPD gauge, make sure you either hook it up, or complete the circuit or else you will have issues with no starts. The data links are kinda tricky and can be finiky.... Newt was talking about the "hybrid thing which is something I am looking into doing in the future with using an LSJ PCM or a standalone. The only way I would attempt to use the direct injection is with the LNF/Bosch PCM....
P&P Tuning
420.5whp / 359.8wtq
Ok you need the J-body pcm to drive the dash and make the j-body bcm work. you need the lnf bcm to make the lnf pcm work and you need the lnf ignition switch and key to make the lnf pcm/bcm work.
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2002 Chevy Cavalier LS Sport Coupe: In a Junk Yard
1995 Mazda Miata R-package Class=STR
Sponsored by:
Kronos Performance
WPI Class of '12 Mechanical Engineering
WPI SAE Risk and Sustainability Management Officer
I'm not sure how an LNF bottom end swap would respond to port fuel injection. Presumably it would be ok, but remember the piston crown has a nice channel in it to dispirse the directly injected fuel.
As far as running an LNF in the Jbody, Like QWK said, EVERYTHING must be swapped over. The only PCM out there that will control the VVT, direct injection (HPFP duty cycle), boost control solenoid, factory WBO2 sensor, ect IS the LNF/Bosch PCM. It won't run on anything else as a unit. You could switch it to port fuel injection and run an LE5 PCM, but then why not run an LE5?
If you get it to work, you will have certainly generated a "wow" factor, but not much more power than can be achieved by other means, and a lot less wiring. Meaning on a bone stock LNF w/ tuning, you could manage mid 300whp and maybe 400wtq. So I have to ask, are you after the "wow" factor, or are you after a strong bottom end capable of 400 or so hp?
basically in addition to some "wtf" or wow factor, this would be a cheaper alternative to buying a good Delta coupe shell...
then there's the fact that aside from the Solstice GXP, there is no cool Pontiac fwd/4banger car built...
the Sunfire GT was Pontiac's last distinct compact/fwd car - the G6-GXP was kinda cool, but no manual transmission, and the spoiiler ect were just over the top...
I always liked the Sunfires, and after the GMPP Supercharger kit was released, I seriously thought about getting rid ofthe (then 1989) Grand Am, and getting a Sunfire GT + the SC kit... but opted to save my money, and have fun with LG0 Grand Am's instead...
I can get J-bodies around here in decent shape for a couple grand (the market is flooded with them), but a similar delta is more than double that.
average Sunfire GT's/Cavalier Z24's around here in good shape are $2500-3500;
average Cobalts/G5's around here in good shape are $7000-9000
so that for sure is a factor...
maybe I'll just kick this car in the back yard, and forget about this kind of swap...
Physically, the LSJ/LNF+F35 drivetrain does not fit in the J-body engine bay. At least stock, it doesn't. If you're willing to tube it.. I can't see why it wouldn't fit.
There was a person on Quad4Forums that tried to fit an LSJ into a 95-99 Cav and it didn't fit. He gave up. That's the only person I know of that has actually physically tried the swap....
John Lenko wrote:Physically, the LSJ/LNF+F35 drivetrain does not fit in the J-body engine bay. At least stock, it doesn't. If you're willing to tube it.. I can't see why it wouldn't fit.
There was a person on Quad4Forums that tried to fit an LSJ into a 95-99 Cav and it didn't fit. He gave up. That's the only person I know of that has actually physically tried the swap....
LSJ what? I am running an LE5, AND pj is running an LSJ in a cavalier... (bottom ends but regardless) are you saying tranny?
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