Is the throttle body gasket replaceable or is it like the valve cover gasket and "built in"? Or do you still have to replace it? Like take the gasket out of the valve cover or tb and install a new one?
One other question. What tb would be good for a basic bolt on car? I've got an intake and a cat back, and motor mounts but I'd like to do some more. I'm thinking about staying N/A for now. So what size TB would be good? Should I compliment that with a manifold? Which one? If I do the manifold and the TB, should I replace the injectors too to prevent leaning out? If I'm doing the manifold would it be pointless to do that until I have a header and high flow cat?
I've read the stickies, but I'm not really sure where to start with the whole intake/exhaust stuff. What's good to start with, what's pointless to do with this, and so on.
Thanks
get a 2.4 eco intake mani. you will need larger injectors and a tune to run this mani.
either stick with the stock tb or get a bored 60 or 62 mm tb
no it's not pointless to do intake mods before you have a higher flowing exhaust, it just obviously will compliment it a lot more when you have a higher flowing exhaust.
The throttle body gasket is a formed oring, it should be fine. I wouldmt upgrade your throttle body until you're making a lot more power.
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Okay, I'll leave the TB alone then.
The 2.4 mani, what injectors do you need? The ones off the 2.4 eco? Do you have to use HPT or is there somebody out there who can tune your PCM for you? Like a "mail order" tune or something. I thought I remembered seeing one somewhere. I have no idea how to even begin to use HPT, and I've tried looking at the stickies, but theres a lot of stuff in there, and I get so confused.
SS-J wrote:blucavvy wrote:get a 2.4 eco intake mani. you will need larger injectors and a tune to run this mani.
I love this myth.
You do for sure need a tune. Everyone who hates the mod doesnt have a tune, everyone who loves it has one. I can tell you just from basic engine theory that it needs a tune or you will lose power. Larger injectors are a maybe.
1994 Saturn SL2 Home Coming Edition: backup car
2002 Chevy Cavalier LS Sport Coupe: In a Junk Yard
1995 Mazda Miata R-package Class=STR
Sponsored by:
Kronos Performance
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WPI SAE Risk and Sustainability Management Officer
Leafy wrote:SS-J wrote:blucavvy wrote:get a 2.4 eco intake mani. you will need larger injectors and a tune to run this mani.
I love this myth.
You do for sure need a tune. Everyone who hates the mod doesnt have a tune, everyone who loves it has one. I can tell you just from basic engine theory that it needs a tune or you will lose power. Larger injectors are a maybe.
Yep. I hated this mod till I upgraded injectors and tuned. Now I Love it. So no its not a myth. To get the most out of it you will need a tune.
You can get away with stock injectors with the le5 mani, but it will run lean..you can easily grab ford green top injectors off ebay for about $50 shipped, I believe mine were like $43 shipped.
Also get yourself a wideband o2, it'll make tuning much easier. Without it, hpt is only going to let you tune til 6200rpm. I favor the AEM wb, as it is self calibrating, though if you want to squeak out a bit better gas mileage, go with the innovit lc-1 and you can utilize its "lean burn" feature with the le5 mani/larger injector setup.
i just got my lsj injectos off ss.net for 30 bucks shipped.
Alright, now what about the "mail order" type tunes? The shops around here just aren't domestic guys. I've gotten the good old "It's a cavalier, it'll never be fast." like 4 times now. I ask if they have any experience with tuning cavaliers, and every single one has said no, I haven't worked with them at all. At that point I just snicker and say thanks and leave.
What exactly is a wide band o2?
Let me make sure I have all of this correct:
LE5 Manifold
42 lb ford green top injectors
HPT
Then after all thats good add the header and cat to make it a complete package, and from there port and polish the head, and match the exhaust and intake ports. Is that about right?
With the LE5, injectors, HPT, full exhaust, and port and polish, what kind of gains do you get?
When do cams start coming into play? With a mild cam, do you need valves/springs, etc? Remember, I'm keeping this DD. I'm just looking for reliable power.
A wide band o2 sensor reads air to fuel ratios on a larger range than the stock narrow band o2. wide bands are for tuning only and are in no way a substitute for a narrow band.
1994 Saturn SL2 Home Coming Edition: backup car
2002 Chevy Cavalier LS Sport Coupe: In a Junk Yard
1995 Mazda Miata R-package Class=STR
Sponsored by:
Kronos Performance
WPI Class of '12 Mechanical Engineering
WPI SAE Risk and Sustainability Management Officer
Sorry guys, but I have to be spoon fed a little. It's the way my brain works. I read all the stickies and stuff, but I get confused as to where to start. Fixing cars is not new to me, but tuning them is something I'm still leanring.
Tuning is very hard, its retardedly hard on our cars because of the limited support we have.
1994 Saturn SL2 Home Coming Edition: backup car
2002 Chevy Cavalier LS Sport Coupe: In a Junk Yard
1995 Mazda Miata R-package Class=STR
Sponsored by:
Kronos Performance
WPI Class of '12 Mechanical Engineering
WPI SAE Risk and Sustainability Management Officer
in other words don't do the mail order tune. make sure you have it tuned by a professional that knows what they're doing with a j-body ecu.
Leafy wrote:A wide band o2 sensor reads air to fuel ratios on a larger range than the stock narrow band o2. wide bands are for tuning only and are in no way a substitute for a narrow band.
Now is that in relation to the voltage values it's reads or rather makes? You said its not a replacement, so would that mean, you would keep your factory o2s to prevent a CEL, but add another bung for a wide band and connect that basically straight to the tuner, and/or an A/F gauge?
blucavvy wrote:in other words don't do the mail order tune. make sure you have it tuned by a professional that knows what they're doing with a j-body ecu.
Understood. Thanks for the tip.
Sunfiretun3r wrote:Leafy wrote:A wide band o2 sensor reads air to fuel ratios on a larger range than the stock narrow band o2. wide bands are for tuning only and are in no way a substitute for a narrow band.
Now is that in relation to the voltage values it's reads or rather makes? You said its not a replacement, so would that mean, you would keep your factory o2s to prevent a CEL, but add another bung for a wide band and connect that basically straight to the tuner, and/or an A/F gauge?
It's not to prevent a cel you have to leave to narrowband o2 's in and weld a 3rd bung in for the wideband.
Once you have hp tuners you dont need to worry about cel's. BUT the narrow band is used by the car's computer during idle and cruising (and a few other times) to attempt to hit the perfect air to fuel ratio for best fuel economy/emissions.
1994 Saturn SL2 Home Coming Edition: backup car
2002 Chevy Cavalier LS Sport Coupe: In a Junk Yard
1995 Mazda Miata R-package Class=STR
Sponsored by:
Kronos Performance
WPI Class of '12 Mechanical Engineering
WPI SAE Risk and Sustainability Management Officer
blucavvy wrote:
no it's not pointless to do intake mods before you have a higher flowing exhaust, it just obviously will compliment it a lot more when you have a higher flowing exhaust.
Truth. I had my 100% stock exhaust on my car for the 1st summer i was supercharged. The car was quicker than stock, but upgrading the exhaust really helped.
Leafy wrote:I wouldmt upgrade your throttle body until you're making a lot more power.
There is no reason not to. Our stockers are tiny and with the LE5 manifold it would be a good thing to do.
SS-J wrote:blucavvy wrote:get a 2.4 eco intake mani. you will need larger injectors and a tune to run this mani.
I love this myth.
PJ has logs from his stock 04 showing that the stock injectors are damn close to being maxed out. Will the car run without larger injectors and a tune? Yes. Will you get the most out of it? Hell no.
its an old concept. time for something new to take the reigns. - Z yaaaa
Sorry tinkles, Until you're making north of around 180 wheel, all putting a bigger tb on our cars will do is reduce throttle resolution, aka twitchy throttle.
1994 Saturn SL2 Home Coming Edition: backup car
2002 Chevy Cavalier LS Sport Coupe: In a Junk Yard
1995 Mazda Miata R-package Class=STR
Sponsored by:
Kronos Performance
WPI Class of '12 Mechanical Engineering
WPI SAE Risk and Sustainability Management Officer
Leafy wrote:Once you have hp tuners you dont need to worry about cel's. BUT the narrow band is used by the car's computer during idle and cruising (and a few other times) to attempt to hit the perfect air to fuel ratio for best fuel economy/emissions.
I know exactly what the factory o2's do. Stoichimetric ratio. The PCM wants the engine to be there at all times. Best for emissions and performance.
Like I said, I know how to fix cars (for the most part), but tuning is new. (This is not me being as ass hole or anything, just stating I know what they do and so on)
I'm curious though how the wide band functions. The factory's o2's generally create from around .8 ~ .2 Volts, from reference oxygen level outside, to oxygen level inside the exhaust gas. What's different about the wide band?
And what's twitchy throttle? I've never heard that term before.
Wide bands output 0-5v and can read between about 7.4:1 and 21:1 depending on brand and model. Since you want to be running at 12.8:1 or richer (the closer to 12.8:1 the better) during PE mode (Power Enrich mode, which is when you're asking the car to make power. Not just WOT, mine turns on at 20% throttle sometimes) .
Twitchy throttle, like you just tap the gas and burn out, and its hard to maintain a certain speed. That kind of thing.
1994 Saturn SL2 Home Coming Edition: backup car
2002 Chevy Cavalier LS Sport Coupe: In a Junk Yard
1995 Mazda Miata R-package Class=STR
Sponsored by:
Kronos Performance
WPI Class of '12 Mechanical Engineering
WPI SAE Risk and Sustainability Management Officer
Alright, thanks for explaining that.
This thread definitely turned into more info than I could have even thought about asking for. I think ya'll know too much for your own good.
Leafy, you seem to know an awful lot. Care to take on a student?
Leafy wrote:Wide bands output 0-5v and can read between about 7.4:1 and 21:1 depending on brand and model. Since you want to be running at 12.8:1 or richer (the closer to 12.8:1 the better) during PE mode (Power Enrich mode, which is when you're asking the car to make power. Not just WOT, mine turns on at 20% throttle sometimes) .
Twitchy throttle, like you just tap the gas and burn out, and its hard to maintain a certain speed. That kind of thing.
I had my revco 60mm tb on my car for a while before I ever had my le5 manifold and never had this "twitchy throttle"
60 si what? 2 or 6 mm bigger? Thats really not a significant difference in size from stock, heck when that gets dirty I bet it has the same cross section as a stock clean one. And as a note to everyone, a bigger TB requires a tune, thank you alpha-n once again.
1994 Saturn SL2 Home Coming Edition: backup car
2002 Chevy Cavalier LS Sport Coupe: In a Junk Yard
1995 Mazda Miata R-package Class=STR
Sponsored by:
Kronos Performance
WPI Class of '12 Mechanical Engineering
WPI SAE Risk and Sustainability Management Officer
