Alright so to be blunt, I am really very inexperienced (I can take apart engines and rebuild them but thats about as far as my knowledge and confidence goes) and young, I am just short of 18 and don't have alot of money. I have a 97 cavalier with the auto trans and the 2.2, and i really want a manual ecotec, obviously switching cars would be easier, but i like the idea of making something my own and taking on a project. Of course i am somewhat over my head,but I have a grandpa who rebuilds entire hot rods, a dad who has rebuilt engines and transmissions, and an engines teacher who has built several engines and is just short of a mechanical genius. I plan to rely on them as well as help from forums such as this one to help me through the project. So to state the project if it is not obvious, put a 2.2 ecotec and manual transmission into my 97 cavalier. I know there are several walk throughs and guides to be found on the internet and probably this site alone, but I would just appreciate any advice you guys could give. Primarily I need a list of essentially ever part I will need, ideally I would like to find a crashed donor car so that everything is there, but that may not be possible. Also just any advice as to the overall procedure, and any tips as to where to find parts and such would be greatly useful. I know it probably seems like I should just slow down and get all this figured out ahead of time, but I've been sitting on this idea for along time and i just need to get it in motion. And my greatest resource, my engines class, will only be going on until this summer. So please help me out!
I would suggest reading those walkthroughs on this site and others you made mention of...they just happen to contain ALL the answers you are looking for. The "search" function is a handy little device. Besides, this info has already been spoon fed to people over and over and over again.
heres the basics
For the eco: you'll need everything, including the gauge cluster behind the dash...
For the 2.4: (its a comparable motor, comes stock in Z24s, and makes more horsepower and torque than the eco), you'll need motor+accessories, corresponding ecu and wiring from that year motor, and trans. I'd suggest a 97 or 98 (96 is not HPtuneable) 2.4 because making the 99/00+ jump, you will again have to replace the cluster and install a Body Control Module, however i'd suggest a 00 - 02 Transmission as its the same F23 Getrag that the eco has (different bellhousings of course), and its a stronger transmission. However, you'll have to weld up the trans mounts, but, lucky for you, if you search the transmission forum, someone put up a nice how to with pictures...
alright so doing my research and there are still a few conflicting details, there are some guys who claim its really easy and only takes a few key parts, and others that make it sound much more ridiculous. I mean obviously you need the engine, tranny, ecu, fuel pump, that sort of stuff swapped, but I read somewhere that you need to re-run all the wiring of the car? What does the dome light and brake lights have to do with the motor? Not to sound ignorant but can anyone just quickly help me out as to whether this is true or not?
Read me very slowly...
This swap is a little easier if you have a 2000-2002 with the 2.2ohv motor. But you have a 97 which means you need EVERYTHING. When I say everything I mean EVERYTHING. Like the whole car. You would have to weld mounts to your frame for the other trans too.
Dont ask again what is needed. Research this site. Its everywhere. The answer is, you need a jbody that came with the ecotec. You might as well just buy one, sell yours, call it a day.
Alex Spacek wrote:alright so doing my research and there are still a few conflicting details, there are some guys who claim its really easy and only takes a few key parts, and others that make it sound much more ridiculous. I mean obviously you need the engine, tranny, ecu, fuel pump, that sort of stuff swapped, but I read somewhere that you need to re-run all the wiring of the car? What does the dome light and brake lights have to do with the motor? Not to sound ignorant but can anyone just quickly help me out as to whether this is true or not?
Do you know what a Body Control Module is? If so, re read
my post above. If not, you shouldn't be attempting this swap, unless you plan to never drive your car again.
Edit: i'll be nice. if you don't know what a body control module is. the BCM monitors and controls everything inside a car. The newer the car, generally the more it controls. In our cars, the BCM (that would work with an eco) was introduced in 1999. The BCM stores the milage of the vehicle (previously stored in the cluster). The BCM also gets information from the PCM (powertrain module), and sends it to the cluster. A BCM also monitors whether the brake switch is on or off (depending on whether your foot is on the brake or not), as well as whether the dome light is switched on or off. I know the J-body BCM has control over the power door lock actuators, because on certain models, it saves the transmitter codes for keyless entry, and (i think) on automatic transmissions, the locks automatically lock and unlock with car being in and out of park. The J-body BCM also controls the daytime running lights. The only way to disable them on a 1999+ (without cutting up wiring) is to tell the BCM the car is being used in mexico. Basically, these are examples of how all the other stupid stuff relates. The 1999+ PCM is looking to send information to the 1999+ BCM. the BCM sends it to the gauge cluster. The BCM is also looking for all these other things in your car (the stupid stuff like dome lights and brake lights and etc etc etc) otherwise it gets mad, and then you have a hack job on your hands...
Again... the 97 or 98 2.4 litre engine is an easier, less involved swap for your car, and its a faster engine... its a no brainer decision in my opinion...
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Tuesday, November 01, 2011 4:39 PM
Well i apologize for wasting your guys time but I still thank you for the information, however condescending. I have been reading walk throughs and information outside of this particular thread, have no fear, and I guess I was pretty sure it took everything, but everytime I would look i would find just one guy claiming that it didnt take all that. Again thank you for the clarification and my apologies for having to speak with someone who has less knowledge than yourselves.
Alex Spacek wrote:Well i apologize for wasting your guys time but I still thank you for the information, however condescending. I have been reading walk throughs and information outside of this particular thread, have no fear, and I guess I was pretty sure it took everything, but everytime I would look i would find just one guy claiming that it didnt take all that. Again thank you for the clarification and my apologies for having to speak with someone who has less knowledge than yourselves.
Respect? Daaaaaaamn. For that, (if you ever read this again) I recommened 3400 swap for you.
meh... its only condescending if we knew why you're nutswinging on the eco motor so much... its obviously not performance...
anyway... don't believe everything you read on the internet. the ppl here that have done eco swaps in pre 1999 cars can verify that a lot of rewiring needs to be done... anything that says otherwise, shouldn't be considered reliable information
Edit: just so i don't take @!#$ for this... my statements would be different, if this guy had an 00-02 J-body...
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Wednesday, November 02, 2011 4:30 AM
I have just heard alot better things about the eco, it has a good reliable reputation, easy to build on for performance, easy to find. Where as the ld9 seems alot harder to find and I've heard its harder to find parts, but i can't state it as a fact. Just in general I've gotten a better vibe and there seems to be more fans of the eco, not to say there is a shortage of support for the ld9, i just kind of trusted in the majority. Which may be wrong, but maybe that didn't help you understand at all but thats why i was leaning towards the eco.
Alright well if anyone here still has the patients to deal with me, can you help me out quick. Again I understand that the basic procedure requires essentially a whole strip down and transfer from a donor car including all wiring and such, but will you do me the favor of reading the thread on this link. Either I'm completely misunderstanding him or he claims that he didn't go through all that and currently has a running eco swap, don't get mad at me, if you feel he is unreliable and talking out of his @$$ then okay, but its just these kinds of contradictory statements that confuse me.
There is a lot of choppy info. For one, he made no mention of having to weld new mounts for the ecotec trans. This had to be done id the car was truely a 97.
As for the rest, I think he is running a stand alone. Probably still using the original pcm too. Pretty much, using the ecotec pcm JUST to power the engine, and the old pcm powering the car.
I could be 100% wrong, but thats my guess with that little information.
Yeah he seems terribly vague. And admittedly I'm not on top of all this stuff but I mean I don't really know a thing about a stand alone. I haven't run into anyone talking about them before in all that I've looked up, not to say its not out there, but I would have to assume its pretty expensive. Also I know where just speculating here, but if he is running a stand alone and it does work, what is your opinion on it? Would it work just as well or is it sort of a half @$$ed way of doing things thats bound to have some problems?
Standalone sounds like more work... not only do you still have to rewire the whole car, now you need to run your own PCM connector and wire out from there. good bye plug and play. On the other hand, using two separate PCMs, i can't see that working too well at all, and even if it does, i can't see it being tuned very easy. without the ability to tune, you might as well forget the ability to build for performance.
AEM makes a universal standalone, you will need to tune it immediately before first startup with the basic values needed for the motor. I don't know if AEM provides this info, or whether you need to find a tuner who knows what your computer should be doing stock.
After being super frustraited with HPTuner's lack of support (Moreover un-accessible tables) for all the J body engine's computer's, i researched stand alones,... ive come to the conclusion that HPT is the best route.
and for the record, ive had ZERO problems finding parts for my motor... that is a pure myth... in fact almost everything negative about the quad 4 family engines in your last post is more myth... reliability is on par between the motors, the parts are there, the aftermarket support is there as well, and its pretty split down the middle on who supports which engine.. Generally the majority will tell anyone with a 97 or older to swap to a LD9, 99 - 02, swap to either, and 03-05 don't swap. (also 96-02 Z24s, don't swap). Also the builds are split pretty evenly... the LD9 guys will do the 2.3 oil pump swap, the eco guys will sleeve the block. Power to weight has been proven to not make a major difference because the LD9's cast iron block only weights 50 more lbs than the eco's aluminum block... both motors will last if they are maintained, both motors have put out very similar numbers, both motors are easy to build... the only difference, one is significantly cheaper and easier to swap in to your car, the other is not...
im not trying to LD9 nutswing (though i do so often here)... i just want you to realize what you are doing, and clear up any myths you may have heard...
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Thursday, November 03, 2011 3:59 AM
"The 2.4 and 3400 are both much more unreliable IMO than the Eco motor. It's much newer and redesigned. The Eco motor will give you the same power as the 2.4 LD9 because it was made to replace the 2.4." <-- words from another guy on a similar forum.. now I do not want to give the impression that I disagree with you because I am far less knowledgeable! I respect your knowledge and never meant to offend you or the ld9 or any other fans of it, but there's lots of comments floating around like the one i quoted above that just gave off the impression the eco was better or at least had a larger following. But I could very well be mistaken and i thank you for information and advice, hopefully I will be able to figure something out with all this, thanks again.
yeah... thats a myth too... the eco came out in 2000 in saturns (as the 2.2 litre twin cam), two years before the LD9 stopped production. while it is newer, its it own design, developed by Vauxhall (GM's European arm), vs the LD9/Quad Family which was developed by Oldsmobile.
i'm not offended or anything... there are enough people spreading myths around the internet, that its hard to find information... The reality is, is that all three motors are equally reliable, as long as they are maintained. So factoring reliability out, you gotta decide, how much time/effort/money do you wanna put in to a swap, vs what you will get out of it...
What i can suggest to you now:
1) if you get a used engine: replace the bearings (Clevite 77 bearings FTMFW), piston rings, timing chain, and head gasket minimum (i'd replace all the gaskets ) while its out
2) If you want to go performance and build the internals, now is the time to get your parts... Pistons, rods, cams, etc.....
3) make a decision as to how you want to buiid (all motor, boost (super or turbo or both), n20, etc) and how fast you want to make it (be realistic with your goals vs how you plan to build... 250WHP is kinda the upper limit for most all motor builds, but b00st can go significantly higher)... you will then need to research what type of pistons you want (high comp, low comp, or stock compression, and how much overbore), Cam profiles also play a big factor depending on the build... and head work plays in to this as well...
basically make a decision on what motor, what type of build, and how much whp you want , and there are ppl here with builds that can point you in the right direction...
Edited 2 time(s). Last edited Monday, November 07, 2011 5:03 PM
thanks i really appreciate it
