Ive noticed a lot of talk about wideband O2 sensors, and air/fuel controllers and gauges.
Where do I even start to learn about these this stuff? Ive done internet searches but other than companies bragging about products I can't find anything that actually explains how in depth the adjustment process is, and why you need a wideband sensor. How it works, what it actually can accomplish etc...
Any help would be appreciated. I have 2 Sunfire GTs, One is about to get an ecotec upgrade(already have a donor sunfire) The other is a 2.4(for now, I don't plan on touching anything outside of the body/suspension until I get another eco engine/trans).
My goals when its all said and done are to have one car that gets great gas mileage(hopefully better than stock) for every day use, and one that is capable of some power, just for whenever the hell I feel like it.
(realistically I will probably stop/shoot for the 250HP range at the flywheel. The engine rebuild and lightening of the actual car should let enough power to the wheels for me to be content. I figure i'll probably only get around 220 at the wheels without some major and expensive mods(at least from what ive read/seen so far).
But I figured with either of these projects, controlling the fuel/air sounds beneficial so.... help? lol
I'm at the point where I have money to do some major work on these cars, but everything sounds interesting or beneficial. So I'm trying my damnedest to get a list of what I want to do to each car, then work out the order then need to be done in. Because I want any work I do to be done properly, and only need to be done once.
Thanks! lol that little reply actually provided me with a lot of help. seriously. I would've never even clicked in there if you hadn't told me.
considering you have 2 97s... I'd keep the 2.4 in the one that has the 2.4... Eco swaps will require you to rewire both cars back to the Taillights... and the 2.4 is more than capible of making power, and is about as fuel efficient as the eco. You will definitely need more than the motor and trans to do the swap... In your case, an eco is NOT and upgrade over a 2.4.... Its a "Lot of work and $$$ to have a samegrade engine)
Eh thats a matter of opinion. 3 or 4 years ago I would've agreed with you.
I have a wrecked 03 sitting here in my driveway I bought last week, and I don't work anymore. lol so thats why at LEAST 1 of them is getting swapped, and I don't really care what that entails work wise because I have all the time in the world, and a reasonable amount of money and space allocated to mess with them.
Overhauling these cars has been my dream since I had my 1st 2 of them. (Back then I WAS planning 2.4 and 2.3conversion builds. But what are you gonna do when your broke? lol)
Like I said, I want one car for MPG and one for power.
As far as the eco vs the 2.4. Ive had 2 other 2.4s and they ARE my favorite of the three stock choices.
But the mass produced eco is going to be a hell of a lot easier to find performance parts for, and have a much wider and more cost efficient selection than the 2.4. Not to mention you can find them for about 400-500$ in a yard, barely out of use with under 70-80k miles on them, they're properly constructed(oil channels) for bottom end lubrication so no hand grenade in Cyl3 to worry about, and I don't have to worry as much about some asshole mixing Green and orange antifreezes and having to flush the brown gasket eating sludge out of my water jackets before I can even use it.
That is if I CAN even find one.
In Pittsburgh, There are no performance shops within 200-300 miles of here, very few machine shops(that do cars), and a very limited junkyard selection for just about anything that was an economy car. So anything I get is going to have to come from the internet.
Personally I think if I'm going to put ANY kind of money in these cars, swapping in the engine and transmission that is barely out of mass production is a much more economical decision in the long run. I mean I want to drive these things for the next 5-10 years lol and 2.4 parts and performance upgrades are only going to get harder to find.
As a matter of fact, when I started really pursuing my options, I looked for a low mileage 2.4 motor/tranny and the cheapest I could find them was 850$ for a 65k motor and then they wanted 600$ for the tranny. I actually considered it for a second, then realized its last window sticker was 2002, so I figured if its been sitting for 9 years without being started, its block is going to need cleaned, and probably at the very least honed before i can even turn it over, thats another 350$ minimum. And thats not even counting block/crank work for the oil pump conversion, and forged lower end.
I bought a wrecked 03 sunfire with 80k on it for 1000$ and everything I need to turn my 97 into an 03 is right there, and it was last on the road in 2011 so new fluids and its ready to drive(with an early first fluid change out). The only thing I would have to do is shell out block wise is for forged internals on the one im sending power through.
Seems to me thats way more economical, and the smarter way to go. But lol as I'll be the first to admit, I don't know everything. So I'm going to do 1 and see how it turns out, then make the decision on the other one.
I agree... Since you already have the doner, swap the eco in one of the sunfires, and see if you want to do it again afterwards... Make sure you check out all of the eco swap threads, including this one...
http://www.j-body.org/forums/read.php?f=2&i=472511&t=472511
The 2000 line is a pretty big line to cross... Keep the doner car until you are completely done... You're going to need about 90% of it...
In the meantime, just for thought... there are still plenty of parts for the 2.4 floating around... with most of the moving parts still produced by aftermarket companies... You'll have a slightly harder time finding HO+ cams... but Secret cams are available all day long... I've also heard that GM Discontinued some of the oil pump swap parts, I know the pump itself is still readily available from Melling, and parts fly up on our classifieds all the time... Performance bearings, rods, pistons, valves, gaskets, timing chains, lifters, valve springs, are all still being produced, and most of our JBO vendors carry them. OEM produces an adapter to allow you to run the M62 supercharger...
On the Eco side of things, after the nightmare of the swap, you'll still need to buy your forged internals and sleeve the block (instead of the 2.4 oil pump swap).
i personally still think you will spend more money swapping and building an eco than re-building and bullet proofing a 2.4
Edited 2 time(s). Last edited Thursday, April 19, 2012 8:31 PM
I do appreciate you trying to give me a heads up on the difficulty, and filling me in on the current state of some of the parts findability without being a dick about it.
nobody knows everything so knowledge and advice is always welcome because that lets me make better educated decisions.
If it wasn't such a bitch to rebuild a salvage title in PA, id just fix the 03 lol. I am fully aware of everything this swap entails, and I plan on swapping everything except maybe some option crap like cruise and a/c which i never use anyways, all the way back to the tail lights(well... whats left of them lol). It'll more or less be a 2003 mechanically and electronically.
I'm currently looking into the Kframe dropout process to try and eliminate some of the tedious tasks of taking things off to get the engines and the trans' out of the engine bay in one piece from the top.(if its even possible.)
As far as sleeving goes, I doubt id need to sleeve a 2.2 or a 2.4 for 250 and less HP(thought the 2.4 would at the VERY least need the oil channels oblonged at the rod bearing site(i forget what this is called right now). That HP zone would pretty much be my max at where id stop(maybe less lol depends where i decide im happy) because i can't use it around here. Fast cars are like big red flags DMV problems in the pittsburgh area. I know more than a few people whose cars were impounded and torn apart by the DMV's inspection station "To check its legal streetability"(B.S.) for going only 20MPH over the speed limit where its posted 65mph.
The best part is, they aren't required by any laws to put it back together if it isn't stock! lol so I'm not racing it around, I just want to be able to haul when im in a hurry and beat up on some of the stock level import kids light to light who swear that half assed cat back exhaust and a WAI gives them 30-50HP.
-----skipable sidenote: lol my favorite was a kid driving a 98 VW Golf. I asked him how much HP he had, and he said about 200(up from 115-120 stock at flywheel). I was like whoa thats pretty cool, what'd you do to it? He then PROUDLY stated that he added a throttle body spacer, and 3" exhaust with no cat and a cold air intake. I was like wow man, you got 80 HP from that? n he said 'pshh yea at least.' lol im so sick of these people...
I would want forged internals(maybe even with a stock crank) for any engine. I would probably buy the forged internals just for the rotating weight reduction/HP availability. lol well and knowing for sure(as long as i do it right) that i'm not going to throw a rod, or burn out a piston or its rings at any point regardless what I do.(cuz from my understanding you need a hell of a lot more HP that 200-250 to do that, or not change your oil lol)
There are like 2 machine shops(that do cars) within 100 miles of me that I could find in the last couple years at least.
One charges 150$ an hour for labor outright, plus 9million little shop fees. lol He wants 500$ just to clean and flush the block, and from what ive seen in forums, that like a 150-250$ job.
The other one is one guy thats in his late 60s. He charges per job, and a reasonable amount. But a friend of mine took a 350 there to be bored and cleaned and it took him 6 weeks because hes so backed up and won't hire anyone. :/ this kind of makes me want to stay away from machine work as much as possible. But only because its more than a small inconvenience and cost because of where i live.
And to me, it isn't worth it to stack a freight shipping cost ontop of that, or its core shipping cost somewhere to find a company on the internet.
#headache lol
the only reason why i mentioned sleeving on the eco is due to the aluminum block... you can only bore out but so much without sleeves... the 2.4 is cast iron, can can be overbored a bit, though i'd get the block tested for coreshift above .060 over...
that's really surprising there are only 2 machine shops within 100 miles... i live in the middle of nowhere in Virginia and we have 6-10 just within the city i'm in...
Just to update you, I ran through the phone book and searched around on the internet and made some phone calls and I do actually have several options within a 20-30 mile proximity. Either I didn't find them when I looked before, or they're opened up in the past year and a half or so.
Now that this is a feasible option, I'm going to have to do a lot of re-evaluation on my plans for these cars. lol thanks for nudging my ego over the ''psh this mofo thinks he knows... I KNOW I LOOKED!'' line
What I might end up doing is using the Eco for my hypermiling car, and rebuilding a TC for my in a hurry car. It'll all depend on the cost to get the TC to that 200-250HP range vs buying another 1000$ donor car +eco's cost to get there. This may actually come down to availability of the items needed for the oil pump swap, and how much the quote at machine shop is for the work to properly accept and run it. That seems like itd be the only real difference in cost(unless I start seeking serious numbers, and need them to go back and sleeve the eco like you said.)
At any rate lol thanks for the help. Another perspective always makes the wheels turn a little easier.
