Sorry to the mods if I posted this in the wrong section, but I have a bunch of general performance questions to see if I have a good shopping list for an all around reliable and safe daily driver...so rather than make a post in every single forum I just put the list here. My apoligies if that was a no-no

I have been hunting around for a 2.2 OHV cavalier or sunfire with a 5 speed manual for a while now, and I have my sights on a couple at the moment. I will be selling my two current cars to fund the project. I want to keep the build as cheap as possible, but I also want to be thorough. This is what I have so far:

Turbocharger(not sure which yet, need to look at some flow numbers)
Top mount intercooler(I will be making a ram air hoodscoop)
Blow off valve, charge piping, oil lines/fittings, and everything else required
Manifold(will be fabricating this set up for the turbo)
External wastegate
Engine overhaul gasket kit
Head pressure check, port and polish, new valves and seals
Block bore and machining
Pistons(weisco forged)
Rods?(should I get eagle rods with such a 4PSI boost target?)
New stock fuel system components(AC Delco injectors, FPR, fuel pump, and fuel filter)
New plugs and wires(accel, msd, or jacobs I figured)
New AC Delco or Denso front and rear O2 sensors
New clutch(looking for something heavy duty, but not a race clutch)
High flow cat followed by a very long glasspack and 2.25" tailpipe
New front brakes (powerstop ceramics w/ crossdrilled and slotted rotors)
Upper motor mount insert(and a new stock lower mount if it needs it)
New bushings all the way around
New rear brakes if they need it(again with stock parts or perhaps powerstops or bendix)
R&R any other damaged or worn out bits and pieces
Ebiach lowering springs on AGX's or GR2's
Rear swaybar
Fabricate a strut tower brace
Fabricate a roll bar to help in case of a side collision(but is not as intrusive as a full cage...it will be a daily driver)


other than the normal stereo stuff, window tinting, or cosmetic junk, i think that should be about it. Any other things that can make these safer/better for not much cash? Anything I am forgetting on the engine build? I have read the LN2 stock fuel system and ECU can handle 5 PSI without a problem, is that true? Would high 14's or at least low 15's be possible with a little weight reduction on 4 PSI intercooled?




Coming soon: Project Nighthawk

forgot to mention, I will also be replacing the waterpump, t-stat, oil pump, timing chain, ect. when I go through the engine.




Coming soon: Project Nighthawk

On your rods, I would spring for eagles since boost pressure numbers don't really dictate hp numbers. 4 psi from a 16g and 4 psi from a 30r are vastly different hp numbers.

What's your hp target? That's what you should be looking at.

Agreed if you're going that far just do the rods and get it over with. The stock rods aren't terrible but there's just no reason to keep them if you're going this far. Get a racetronix fuel pump. They cost about the same as a stock replacement and the gains are more than worth it. Any particular reason for a top mount intercooler over a front mount? It may not be as efficient. What's your plan for injectors? Most importantly, what's your plan for tuning? You really, really need to have that squared away before you do anything or youll have a sweet build that you can't drive.



"In Oldskool we trust"

Also are you planning on a cam? Stock bearings for everything? And if getting new valves get in touch with Karo at car customs for some stainless ones. Grab an oil pump from an earlier 2.2 ln2, they flow better. Think its an m98?



"In Oldskool we trust"

sorry, I really should have mentioned...my target goal is only 160hp or so...so I am looking at a lower flowing turbo that will spool quickly...I want the car to be a bit more fun to drive, but still have a simple engine like the LN2. I read the rotating assembly is good for much more than that, hence why I was not sure about the rods.

I was hoping by going with a lower volume turbo charger at a lower boost pressure I would not need to go with any sort of a ECU reflash or a standalone FMU, ect.

The reason for the top mount intercooler is simplicity, I planned to fabricate a hoodscoop anyway, and I will be relocating the battery to a dry cell set up in the trunk. The turbo and intake will sit by where the stock air box and battery were, and the charge pipe will head to a top mount intercooler and straight to the intake. I know a front mount will be more efficient, but my goal is lower underhood temps, I am hoping by keeping the front less restricted and the use of a hoodscoop it should work for my low target numbers.

If I can get a LN2 to be about as fast as an ecotec and still be reliable for a daily driver on a small amount of boost, that is really all I am after...I would be more than pleased with high 14's after some weight reduction and good front drag radials...so hopefully I am not being too unrealistic.




Coming soon: Project Nighthawk

Nighthawk wrote:sorry, I really should have mentioned...my target goal is only 160hp or so...so I am looking at a lower flowing turbo that will spool quickly...I want the car to be a bit more fun to drive, but still have a simple engine like the LN2. I read the rotating assembly is good for much more than that, hence why I was not sure about the rods.

I was hoping by going with a lower volume turbo charger at a lower boost pressure I would not need to go with any sort of a ECU reflash or a standalone FMU, ect.

The reason for the top mount intercooler is simplicity, I planned to fabricate a hoodscoop anyway, and I will be relocating the battery to a dry cell set up in the trunk. The turbo and intake will sit by where the stock air box and battery were, and the charge pipe will head to a top mount intercooler and straight to the intake. I know a front mount will be more efficient, but my goal is lower underhood temps, I am hoping by keeping the front less restricted and the use of a hoodscoop it should work for my low target numbers.

If I can get a LN2 to be about as fast as an ecotec and still be reliable for a daily driver on a small amount of boost, that is really all I am after...I would be more than pleased with high 14's after some weight reduction and good front drag radials...so hopefully I am not being too unrealistic.

but why?

building an engine and throwing a turbo on for 160 hp is kind of a waste of time. Just get a stock engine and bolt a turbo on and call it a day if that's all you want.

or, swap an ecotec in and make almost that much power stock.

do you have an affinity to the OHV or something? there aren't enough people here to really be 'proving' anything anymore.

the LN2 has a big advantage over the eco in the iron block, but otherwise there's not much else to like about it without doing a lot of custom work.
if you only want 160hp, I'd say go for an eco powered car or a Z24.

if you turbo charge, shoot for 200whp at least otherwise you're just wasting a lot of money for nothing.

I like the simplicity of the LN2, and I want to keep it reliable, so I have very low goals in mind. I still want to have it be a bit faster than stock. I had too many headaches with my eco cavalier I bought brand new, to the point I sold it and have stayed away from GM cars for about 7 years.

So, that being said, I have very low HP goals, but I want this build to last me for a good 50K+ reliable daily driven miles. Running 14's may not be a very lofty goal when considering dumping a few thousand on a car, but I want something that can out perform most of the new econoboxes on the market, but with a total investment of less than $5k.

So yeah, I want reliability over power, but I also do not want a 16 second car, nor do I want the LD9 or the Ecotec...I work on cars all day, and when it comes to my own vehicle, I like having something simple and reliable so I don't have to keep spending my time and money on it.




Coming soon: Project Nighthawk

I responded to your post in the boost forum. Where are you located? Your more than welcome to checkout our turbo ln2 if your close to the Chicago area.

Nighthawk wrote:I like the simplicity of the LN2, and I want to keep it reliable, so I have very low goals in mind. I still want to have it be a bit faster than stock. I had too many headaches with my eco cavalier I bought brand new, to the point I sold it and have stayed away from GM cars for about 7 years.

So, that being said, I have very low HP goals, but I want this build to last me for a good 50K+ reliable daily driven miles. Running 14's may not be a very lofty goal when considering dumping a few thousand on a car, but I want something that can out perform most of the new econoboxes on the market, but with a total investment of less than $5k.

So yeah, I want reliability over power, but I also do not want a 16 second car, nor do I want the LD9 or the Ecotec...I work on cars all day, and when it comes to my own vehicle, I like having something simple and reliable so I don't have to keep spending my time and money on it.

I have nothing further to add. Your goals are contradictory.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

And it doesn't matter how little amount of boost you run you need a tune if you want to stay "reliable" which is your goal for this whole "build" other wise you will blow that engine in no time. Also your whole turbo routing idea at least the way I have it pictured in my head sound way to complex and not very "simple" run the turbo in the conventional location that all LN2 guys do and do a front mount put a blanket on the turbo and that will help with underhood temps.

I would say get a 00-02 LN2 cavalier, buy HPTuners and run the LD9 GM re-flash on it. Run 5-7 PSI, and run the correct size injectors, and call it a day on a stock block, stock trans, and maybe a little better than stock clutch.

In my opinion, you have no idea what you want to do, or what you are doing...




PRND321 Till I DIE
Old Motor: 160whp & 152ft/lbs, 1/4 Mile 15.4 @88.2
M45 + LD9 + 4T40-E, GO GO GO

-MD- Enforcer wrote:I would say get a 00-02 LN2 cavalier, buy HPTuners and run the LD9 GM re-flash on it. Run 5-7 PSI, and run the correct size injectors, and call it a day on a stock block, stock trans, and maybe a little better than stock clutch.

In my opinion, you have no idea what you want to do, or what you are doing...

Looking at what you have said, this is spot on.



"In Oldskool we trust"

DaFlyinSkwirl (Pj) wrote:

Nighthawk wrote:sorry, I really should have mentioned...my target goal is only 160hp or so...so I am looking at a lower flowing turbo that will spool quickly...I want the car to be a bit more fun to drive, but still have a simple engine like the LN2. I read the rotating assembly is good for much more than that, hence why I was not sure about the rods.

I was hoping by going with a lower volume turbo charger at a lower boost pressure I would not need to go with any sort of a ECU reflash or a standalone FMU, ect.

The reason for the top mount intercooler is simplicity, I planned to fabricate a hoodscoop anyway, and I will be relocating the battery to a dry cell set up in the trunk. The turbo and intake will sit by where the stock air box and battery were, and the charge pipe will head to a top mount intercooler and straight to the intake. I know a front mount will be more efficient, but my goal is lower underhood temps, I am hoping by keeping the front less restricted and the use of a hoodscoop it should work for my low target numbers.

If I can get a LN2 to be about as fast as an ecotec and still be reliable for a daily driver on a small amount of boost, that is really all I am after...I would be more than pleased with high 14's after some weight reduction and good front drag radials...so hopefully I am not being too unrealistic.

but why?

building an engine and throwing a turbo on for 160 hp is kind of a waste of time. Just get a stock engine and bolt a turbo on and call it a day if that's all you want.

or, swap an ecotec in and make almost that much power stock.

do you have an affinity to the OHV or something? there aren't enough people here to really be 'proving' anything anymore.

the LN2 has a big advantage over the eco in the iron block, but otherwise there's not much else to like about it without doing a lot of custom work.
if you only want 160hp, I'd say go for an eco powered car or a Z24.

if you turbo charge, shoot for 200whp at least otherwise you're just wasting a lot of money for nothing.

come on man, everyone here is doing j-body's for the most part. its ALL a "Waste" of money for us.



It's nice to be injected but I love being blown.

-Z Yaaaa- wrote:

DaFlyinSkwirl (Pj) wrote:

Nighthawk wrote:sorry, I really should have mentioned...my target goal is only 160hp or so...so I am looking at a lower flowing turbo that will spool quickly...I want the car to be a bit more fun to drive, but still have a simple engine like the LN2. I read the rotating assembly is good for much more than that, hence why I was not sure about the rods.

I was hoping by going with a lower volume turbo charger at a lower boost pressure I would not need to go with any sort of a ECU reflash or a standalone FMU, ect.

The reason for the top mount intercooler is simplicity, I planned to fabricate a hoodscoop anyway, and I will be relocating the battery to a dry cell set up in the trunk. The turbo and intake will sit by where the stock air box and battery were, and the charge pipe will head to a top mount intercooler and straight to the intake. I know a front mount will be more efficient, but my goal is lower underhood temps, I am hoping by keeping the front less restricted and the use of a hoodscoop it should work for my low target numbers.

If I can get a LN2 to be about as fast as an ecotec and still be reliable for a daily driver on a small amount of boost, that is really all I am after...I would be more than pleased with high 14's after some weight reduction and good front drag radials...so hopefully I am not being too unrealistic.

but why?

building an engine and throwing a turbo on for 160 hp is kind of a waste of time. Just get a stock engine and bolt a turbo on and call it a day if that's all you want.

or, swap an ecotec in and make almost that much power stock.

do you have an affinity to the OHV or something? there aren't enough people here to really be 'proving' anything anymore.

the LN2 has a big advantage over the eco in the iron block, but otherwise there's not much else to like about it without doing a lot of custom work.
if you only want 160hp, I'd say go for an eco powered car or a Z24.

if you turbo charge, shoot for 200whp at least otherwise you're just wasting a lot of money for nothing.

come on man, everyone here is doing j-body's for the most part. its ALL a "Waste" of money for us.

there's a difference between waste becauseoffun and just plain wasting money on dumb crap.

building an engine to support a whopping 160hp is a WASTE. just use a stock engine. maybe do some basic maintenence, but a "built" engine is not factory refurb/ maint crap... it's using upgraded high-stress parts. for what.. 160hp? WASTE.

also to the OP, if you boost the car, you're going to need to tune it with a computer. end of story. there's no ifs ands or buts about it. welcome to electronic fuel injection.

overall, the goals of this build, as I stated before, are completely contradictory. The money and attention is being wasted in the wrong areas given the budget and power level goal. The only way the methods make sense is if the end result is higher power.

a car with computer controlled fuel injection being built with the intent of never being tuned isn't reliable... it's a time bomb.

OK....so, my original post I asked if a tune was necessary for such small goals... and everything I have read on the forums said that no mods were required for under 5 pounds of boost on average...no reflashes, no injectors.

So, my asking if I need to do other modifications is my way of asking for advice, as I mentioned, this is my first turbo build. Sorry if I don't have a goal of 300+ horsepower...I just want a turbocharged reliable daily driver...I do not want an ecotec or an LD9...I don't like the engines. It really is that simple...I want around 160 hp from a LN2.

If I have to tune it and get bigger injectors, so be it...in one of my posts up there I asked if I needed to get bigger injectors or just get new factory AC Delco ones. Most OBD 2 cars are able to adapt to some changes as far as air flow, and I have watched sensor readings and fuel trims on other cars with bolt on turbo kits with our scan tool and with our emissions test equipment. When running small amounts of boost, the systems are able to adapt, so when people said here on the forums that nothing was required with such small boost goals, I took that with a grain of salt and asked here.

I simply asked what else I should do and what else I should know. I am sorry that I appear to have pissed some of you off by asking what I should look at when I have the engine out. Should the engine not need forged anything, I will simply overhaul it with factory parts and spend the money on the fuel system. I don't know why some of you seem to think I refuse to have an engine tuned or that I am dead set on getting forged everything if it isn't required.

So yes, I DO know what I want to do. I want to build a car that performs better than stock, has around 160hp, uses a turbo to achieve that goal, and is reliable. I guess I made a mistake asking for help since this was my first turbo build.

NOTE: it cracks me up, people on this forum get hazed for shooting for huge hp goals they will never see, and I get hazed for being realistic and expecting 160 HP at the wheels from a very small amount of boost and asking how to build something solid and reliable that runs high 14's.




Coming soon: Project Nighthawk

A completely stock LN2 can withstand to a considerable 260Hp with a GOOD tune, heck the LN2 has seen 290hp at 20psi for 2 years before blowing. I think it will be fine with 160.

Just do a O.E rebuild or find a low mileage one, and like pj said injectors,and a tune, to support your turbo is all you need.

We are here to help and good luck on your project

NOTE: it'll crack me up when a soccer mom in her minivan whoops your butt through an intersection because your car will still be weak as hell.

my point is, if you're going to bother with a turbo, go for 200hp at least. 160hp is still slow as dirt.

You stated you want a car to be on par with current econoboxes and the like... well you're going to be disappointed with 160hp.
and embarrass yourself when people find out your turbocharged.

oh boy re-read your original post....

Nighthawk wrote:Fabricate a roll bar to help in case of a side collision(but is not as intrusive as a full cage...it will be a daily driver)

a roll bar is for side collisions? really?

you do know why they call it a ROLL bar right?


the only thing that saves you from side collisions is a full cage.

this is quickly turning in to a full-blown facepalm

I think it needs more cowbell... and listen to these guys... they all know what they are talking about, for the $ you want to spend you could go buy a factory car with the same or more power than your goal.


Have a nice day.

DaFlyinSkwirl (Pj) wrote:NOTE: it'll crack me up when a soccer mom in her minivan whoops your butt through an intersection because your car will still be weak as hell.

my point is, if you're going to bother with a turbo, go for 200hp at least. 160hp is still slow as dirt.

You stated you want a car to be on par with current econoboxes and the like... well you're going to be disappointed with 160hp.
and embarrass yourself when people find out your turbocharged.

I don't street race, nor do I want a car to brag about...I don't really care what other people need to feel fast, like I said, this will be a daily driver. I could care less if you approve or not...why is it so important to you that I build a 200+ horsepower car? It is my money, my project, and it is what I want. You are entitled to your opinion, and I don't expect you to understand, but I have my list of what I want, and all you had to do was say not to bother with anything more than a stock engine rebuild and some injectors and a tune.does it really bother you that much that I want sub 200hp numbers? Tell me another way besides boost to get to the 170hp range on a LN2 while making it still ride nicely on the street for a daily driver. Feel free to tell me it is a waste of time, but there is no need to be insulting...because really...isn't any form of modification to any car a waste of time/money? Lets be honest...cars are a hobby and a chance to make something from the factory better and more personal..

DaFlyinSkwirl (Pj) wrote:oh boy re-read your original post....

Nighthawk wrote:Fabricate a roll bar to help in case of a side collision(but is not as intrusive as a full cage...it will be a daily driver)

a roll bar is for side collisions? really?

you do know why they call it a ROLL bar right?


the only thing that saves you from side collisions is a full cage.

this is quickly turning in to a full-blown facepalm

I don't want a full cage in the front, I have seen what can happen when a person not wearing a helmet smacks their head into one...when I say roll bar I mean a partial cage in the rear of the car, cross bracing in the center of the bar and anchors to the rear of the car along the back seat, but no full upper cage to smack my head into if someone does hit me.

Anyway, I am glad I could provide some entertainment for you...it is a wonder why there aren't more people on these forums with how helpful and polite everyone is here.

Jordan wrote:I think it needs more cowbell... and listen to these guys... they all know what they are talking about, for the $ you want to spend you could go buy a factory car with the same or more power than your goal.

so, the sunfires and cavaliers I have been looking at are in the $1,000 price range. I expect to spend a few thousand on making the car handle, stop, and start better than it did from the factory as well as fixing anything worn out or broken on the car at the time of purchase. I don't know of any new cars for less than $5k that will fit the bill. I think your response is the best yet though...a few people are polite and give suggestions on what to do...others tell me I am an idiot and need to build it for more horsepower...but you skip all that and tell me to just go buy a different car...




Coming soon: Project Nighthawk

Find a low mileage LN2 that runs great with no clicks ticks or sputters and leave the engine alone. Put a turbo with front mount ( trust me way easier ) injectors and tune and do a nice exhaust since you'll already have to do a downpipe might as well just do it all you can get good flowing systems that are quiet if that's what you want.

Do poly mounts everywhere you can and put some nice struts and springs on there maybe even sway-bars if your feeling frisky. The car will be fun to drive handle much better and be at if not a little over your power goals. Just my 2 cents take it or leave it.

I agree with PJ - and bear in mind OP he knows the 2.2 OHV very well.

Your goals contradict themselves.

You want a budget build yet you're going to spend all that money on new stock components? That's ludicrous. (Let's not mention for the total HP goal of 160 hp...)

There is nothing budget about "new" stock fuel system components, let alone the rest of that list.

Budget = stock turbo off another car slapped to the stock engine, plumb it as cheaply as you can and run it hoping it won't grenade. You sir, are not planning a budget build.

If you really want a "reliable" engine that is boosted your best bet - as mentioned I don't know how many times now - is to pick up a junkyard running ecotec and slap the saab STOCK turbo kit on it. 180-200 hp easily on an engine that CAN support it with STOCK COMPONENTS from a junkyard that are built to support it.

If you think "weisco" pistons belong in the same sentence as "budget build" then you are terribly confused, my friend. I glanced at your list and saw 3 grand in parts. For all that you can pick up an eco and a saab turbo kit and put it in the car with all the extra parts necessary.

But I'm sure you won't listen, you came to this forum to validate your position and mine information out of the users on how to make it a reality. If you want help, then you need to accept opinions other than yours, otherwise you are just going to frustrate people and they are going to feel it's wasted time trying to help you.

-Chris-



-Sweetness-
-Turbocharged-
Slowly but surely may some day win this race...