Hey people, I've been working on another project, and I'm getting to the final stage. I should have definitive pricing on these in a few days, but I wanted to throw it out there for interest:

I have been working on a redesigned spindle based on the N-body aluminum unit, that will use the standard J-body hub, and maintain proper geometry. I have nailed down the design, and have found a foundry to cast them and do the heat treating. They will be made of 6061-T6, and will also be properly machined for J-body ball joints and steering links, so installation will be extremely simple.

The benefits are that you do essentially the NFW swap, but retain the bolt pattern. Essentially, you'd be cutting weight, and getting 12" brakes with dual piston calipers, and for far less than any of the kits made so far for our cars.

I am also working on the rotors for this, but for the time being, redrilled W-body rotors and centric rings would do the job. I can take care of both.

The cost of these per pair will be in the range of $150-200 per pair.

What would be the interest in these?




Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Friday, September 26, 2008 8:45 PM

IT would have its place in those of us who wanna do NWF for looks, but for performance I see the weak link becoming the wheel bearings, plus that means you also keep the J body outer CV, another weak point in the driveline.

No question it would be cool, but it seems something like an NWF with redrilled W body bearing assemblys and CV's would be more suitable and just using the stock W body parts as well as costing less and being a tidbit stronger.

Just a thought.

It would make the NWF an easier setup and cheaper too since you would not have to worry about a new set of wheel bearings and CV axles from the W body, however so I could see it definatly having a place.



Buildin' n' Boostin for 08' - Alex Richards

Those are pretty much my thoughts...It's not going to be for someone into hard core performance, but I think for the average JBO guy, it's a great option that gives definite benefits in increased performance, and simplicity.

I should also note that they will have the mounting boss for the J-body ABS sensor.

This could be interesting. Possibly for the DD, I hate these stock brakes.

I would be interested, but my current set of rims has a universal 5 bolt pattern on it, so 5x100 and 5x114/5, thus I have no need.

BUT I feel it is a terrific idea !



My Cav
I give up...
i'm buying a VW those people love trees, so they should love eachother too... "Andy"

How do the brake caliper mounting points change from J body to N body?? This would be nice to add to my Wilwood's but the brackets are made for a J body spindle




Jason
99 Z24 Supercharged
157hp/171tq - NA
190hp/170tq @ 6psi

LD9 for Life

Blwn LD9 wrote:How do the brake caliper mounting points change from J body to N body?? This would be nice to add to my Wilwood's but the brackets are made for a J body spindle

They are completely different. However, IIRC, the Wilwoods for the J use the radial mount, and I believe the bracket for an F-body would work for you.

The point of this spindle is to offer a big brake kit that's a fraction of the cost of the Wilwood, Baer, or SSBC kits, but unlike the NFW swap will allow you to keep your bolt pattern, so you don't have to change wheels, or get dual drilled wheels.

but wouldn't you have to redrill the rotors for the bolt pattern

Are you ready to accept responsibility for this if one of these spindles, a part of a car that holds together many many many important things, fails?

It is this reason that over the past couple years I've stopped thinking of stuff to make for the car world.

So the only thing you are doing is removing the caliper ears/bolt holes and adding an area for two bolts to hold the caliper bracket correct? Out of curiosity, how did you get the dimensions for the stock spindle? I understand that you can get a mold from a modified spindle and go from there, but you still need certain critical dimensions for the bolt hole locations.



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yes

I'm guessing that these wouldn't fit with the stock 16" Z24 rims....



2010 Subaru Impreza WRX Limited
1999 Cavalier Z24 Supercharged
1999 Grand AM SE (Beater Car)
1997 GMC Sierra
2007 Honda CBR 600RR
2005 Honda TRX450R

Viper98912 wrote:Are you ready to accept responsibility for this if one of these spindles, a part of a car that holds together many many many important things, fails?

It is this reason that over the past couple years I've stopped thinking of stuff to make for the car world.

So the only thing you are doing is removing the caliper ears/bolt holes and adding an area for two bolts to hold the caliper bracket correct? Out of curiosity, how did you get the dimensions for the stock spindle? I understand that you can get a mold from a modified spindle and go from there, but you still need certain critical dimensions for the bolt hole locations.

For the liability, the company that I'm dealing with guarantees them, but before I would start actually selling them, I will make sure that I've got my ass covered.

The spindles are not modified stock spindles. They are very slightly modified N-body spindles. The only difference is that they are made to accept the J-body hub, ball joints, and steering arm. There will actually be more material left in it than the N-body one currently does. I have already measured and calculated the necessary tolerances for mounting face, bolt circle for the caliper brackets, etc., and things that need to be changed to accomodate the different hub (for example, a slightly different offset from the caliper bracket than the factory N-body). Just like the factory units, they will have a raw casting that has all critical faces machined to specific tolerance. Don't worry, I know what I'm doing with these, and I will have samples from the company that I will assemble and inspect before I have them do the actual production run.

Cursed Cav (Luke Heier) wrote:I'm guessing that these wouldn't fit with the stock 16" Z24 rims....

I am going to try to make sure they will clear factory 16s. There are no guarantees with this yet, but think about this: the NFW swap will clear the factory 16s from N-bodies and W-bodies, and I'm pretty sure these will clear the J-body rims, because the caliper does not stick out much from the mounting face of the rotor.

^^Well that's good news. If they manage to clear the 16" stockers, I would very much consider getting a set.



2010 Subaru Impreza WRX Limited
1999 Cavalier Z24 Supercharged
1999 Grand AM SE (Beater Car)
1997 GMC Sierra
2007 Honda CBR 600RR
2005 Honda TRX450R

Well, then I wish you the best of luck.

Quiklilcav wrote:

Cursed Cav (Luke Heier) wrote:I'm guessing that these wouldn't fit with the stock 16" Z24 rims....

I am going to try to make sure they will clear factory 16s. There are no guarantees with this yet, but think about this: the NFW swap will clear the factory 16s from N-bodies and W-bodies, and I'm pretty sure these will clear the J-body rims, because the caliper does not stick out much from the mounting face of the rotor.

As for this quote, I highly suggest you look again at an F-body 16" with rotor and caliper, and a J-body 16" with rotor and caliper. They are completely different animals in the amount of spacing that there is between the rotor, caliper, and inside of the wheel. You're gonna be very hard pressed to make this work with a 16" stock J-body wheel.



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Viper98912 wrote:

Quiklilcav wrote:

Cursed Cav (Luke Heier) wrote:I'm guessing that these wouldn't fit with the stock 16" Z24 rims....

I am going to try to make sure they will clear factory 16s. There are no guarantees with this yet, but think about this: the NFW swap will clear the factory 16s from N-bodies and W-bodies, and I'm pretty sure these will clear the J-body rims, because the caliper does not stick out much from the mounting face of the rotor.

As for this quote, I highly suggest you look again at an F-body 16" with rotor and caliper, and a J-body 16" with rotor and caliper. They are completely different animals in the amount of spacing that there is between the rotor, caliper, and inside of the wheel. You're gonna be very hard pressed to make this work with a 16" stock J-body wheel.

I know what you're getting at, but this setup is built around the NFW swap, except that I am replacing the hub with the J-body hub. This is requiring a slight modification to the offset between the hub mounting face and the caliper bracket mounting face (the J-body hub has a taller height if you measure hub face to spindle face -- 8mm difference, to be accurate). The rotors are going to be the W-body design, with the exact same hat offset. I'll pull one of the NFW assemblies in the house and take a picture to show what I mean. The caliper really doesn't stick out much at all.

If it comes down to it, I may, depending on cost, have the rotors built with a slightly higher offset, and push the caliper mount back a little bit.

Im down. And I mean it!

Short Hand wrote:I would be interested, but my current set of rims has a universal 5 bolt pattern on it, so 5x100 and 5x114/5, thus I have no need.

BUT I feel it is a terrific idea !

You will once you get a flat on the front in the middle of nowhere and have to pull a rear wheel, move it to the front, then put the spare on the rear....





Buildin' n' Boostin for 08' - Alex Richards

Here's what I'm talking about with the caliper clearance. The front caliper face is only 13mm further out than the wheel mounting face. I need to get my hands on some factory 16's, but if anyone wants to take some preliminary measurements off of any of them, it would be good to have an idea. I will check all 3 16s to be sure (95-99Z, 00-02Z, LS Sport). I have a feeling that the one that will be the most difficult will be the 95-99, because IIRC, the rear of them comes in a bit toward the outter diameter of the rim.

[

Quiklilcav wrote:

Viper98912 wrote:

Quiklilcav wrote:

Cursed Cav (Luke Heier) wrote:I'm guessing that these wouldn't fit with the stock 16" Z24 rims....

I am going to try to make sure they will clear factory 16s. There are no guarantees with this yet, but think about this: the NFW swap will clear the factory 16s from N-bodies and W-bodies, and I'm pretty sure these will clear the J-body rims, because the caliper does not stick out much from the mounting face of the rotor.

As for this quote, I highly suggest you look again at an F-body 16" with rotor and caliper, and a J-body 16" with rotor and caliper. They are completely different animals in the amount of spacing that there is between the rotor, caliper, and inside of the wheel. You're gonna be very hard pressed to make this work with a 16" stock J-body wheel.

I know what you're getting at, but this setup is built around the NFW swap, except that I am replacing the hub with the J-body hub. This is requiring a slight modification to the offset between the hub mounting face and the caliper bracket mounting face (the J-body hub has a taller height if you measure hub face to spindle face -- 8mm difference, to be accurate). The rotors are going to be the W-body design, with the exact same hat offset. I'll pull one of the NFW assemblies in the house and take a picture to show what I mean. The caliper really doesn't stick out much at all.

If it comes down to it, I may, depending on cost, have the rotors built with a slightly higher offset, and push the caliper mount back a little bit.

You can change the hub height all you want; you haven't changed the rotor height (as you stated at the end). Building and machining custom hats will cost a lot that most people with Jbodies won't buy. For that, it's cheaper to buy a Wilwood kit. A close look at a stock 16" proves that the inside profile of the spokes curve in A LOT, like if we had deep dish-lip wheels. This occured across all wheel lines, with the 95-99 Z24 wheels having the least amount of curve. There's absolutely no way you're going to fit a 12" rotor and caliper with the stock wheels without some other modification. If you could've, then I would have not bought my aftermarket 16's for my NW 12" front swap. And NW wasn't the first swap I considered - custom bracketing was. I've been there.

You've also introduced the fact that now people will have to redrill the holes for the W rotors - which if they buy hub rings to hold the rotor, then they can do this with a drill. If not, they they'll have to have it done by a machine shop, while still "needing" rings. If you provide this for them (at your cost), you've now introduced about $25-50 more into your price just for the fact that you added a lot of weight to your shipping costs - you pay for the shipping to get the rotors to you, and then you pay for the shipping to have the rotors shipped to your customer. The best way is to always stay out of everything - aka you supply the essentials and stay out of the rest. Especially now with plain, dimpled, slotted, crossdrilled, both, coated, non coated, and even damn real gold plating out there available for people's rotor preferences.

Ask any of my personal friends and they'll tell you I've been around the block when it comes to brakes for the J-bodies. This is why I came to post in this specific thread, because it intrigued me (I don't post much anymore on this site). I've also stayed out of the Wilwood rear thread because I don't believe it's going to reasonably work. I do commend you for trying to find/create another setup. Just make sure you've got it very well thought out, before you get yourself into a situation.



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NightmaresCavy wrote:but wouldn't you have to redrill the rotors for the bolt pattern

I forgot to address this question before:

I am working on getting rotors made as well, but yes, the backup plan will be to redrill W-body rotors and add hub rings.

I haven't gotten a quote yet on the rotors, because I've been trying to find a manufacturer that already does the W-body ones, so that there will be no tooling cost, and just change the hub bore and bolt circle machining, as long as the raw disc doesn't have too big of a center opening to begin with.

I'm also thinking of possible doing the rotors in a 2 piece lightweight, but I haven't looked into it yet.

Just for some input:
I'm considering putting together a whole kit that's shipped assembled with spindles, hubs, rotors, and calipers, and possibly braided lines.
Would this be the way people would want to recieve them? These will be all new parts, not remans.

Edit as you posted a picture while I was posting -

1) You have 13mm from caliper to rotor hat. Tell me how many you've got on the stock J-body setup, because you're gonna be surpised.

2) The LS Sport wheel is somewhat flat on the inside, except that the wheel height before the spokes is almost non-existant, nearly hugging the caliper for comfort from the rocks.



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Viper98912 wrote:Edit as you posted a picture while I was posting -

1) You have 13mm from caliper to rotor hat. Tell me how many you've got on the stock J-body setup, because you're gonna be surpised.

I don't have a good set of rotors and pads on the J-body stuff, because they're the junk I pulled off the car, but right now the caliper sticks out about 3mm. So if that's as far as they ever stick out, there's a 10mm difference. Obviously there is the fact that they are an inch further out from the center as well. I need to get my hands on some rims to measure up, and then I can go from there.

As I said, I am going to try to make this work for stockrs, but cost will be a factor in deciding. I can modify the spindle design with no affect on the cost, so I may pull the caliper bracket back. The only issue with doing this is the arm for the steering would hit the rotor as it is designed, but if I change the curve of it, it won't be a problem. The cost of the redesigned rotors for the increased offset will be a deciding factor. If I can't use an existing design to work with, going with a 2 piece may be the cheaper option, and better for weight.

Trust me, I'm spending a lot of time on this, and I've already modified the approach at least a dozen times.

For good measure, to make my NW 12" setup work with my 01 Z24 stock wheels, I would've needed approximately a 1" spacer. That's also not using an F-body caliper, which is slightly larger.

If you change the steering arm, make sure there's enough thread space on the tie rod for change in distance. And then you'd need a new alignment for your grossly overdone toe.

2-piece rotors are much more expensive than stock ones I can buy at Autozone. They sure do look and perform much better though.

You can't change the hub height too much because then you'll have axle issues (binding or coming out of the tripod), especially when turning at full lock.

You can't change the rotor height too much with custom hats because then your caliper will be too far out or too far in, hitting your wheel or knuckle.

I'm gonna have to start asking you for a % cut for all this consulting I'm providing you to make your product better.



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Viper98912 wrote:For good measure, to make my NW 12" setup work with my 01 Z24 stock wheels, I would've needed approximately a 1" spacer. That's also not using an F-body caliper, which is slightly larger.

That's an interesting fact. Like I said, I need to get my hands on some rims. Once I get to the point of committing to the mold and tooling, I'll have wheels in hand to really scrutinize. If it's not feasible, I just won't do it.

Viper98912 wrote:If you change the steering arm, make sure there's enough thread space on the tie rod for change in distance. And then you'd need a new alignment for your grossly overdone toe.

I'm not talking about changing any steering geometry. Merely changing the profile to a slightly inward curve, but keeping the tie rod mounting point the same.

Viper98912 wrote:2-piece rotors are much more expensive than stock ones I can buy at Autozone. They sure do look and perform much better though.

They are, but keep in mind I'm looking at manufacturing costs for small runs, and I'm looking at selling direct, so sh!t won't be marked up twice or more.

Viper98912 wrote:You can't change the hub height too much because then you'll have axle issues (binding or coming out of the tripod), especially when turning at full lock.

I'm not changing hub height. I'm keeping the hub exactly the same, I'm changing offsets from the hub for the caliper mounts.

Viper98912 wrote:You can't change the rotor height too much with custom hats because then your caliper will be too far out or too far in, hitting your wheel or knuckle.

I know. Seriously bud, have some faith. I'm edumacated. I'm talking about possibly 10mm, and there is plenty of room for it.

Viper98912 wrote:I'm gonna have to start asking you for a % cut for all this consulting I'm providing you to make your product better.

How about I just send you one?
Seriously, I have considered a lot more than you give me credit. I wasn't on here posting every time I had an idea. It's something I've been working on for a while now.

Viper98912 wrote:You can't change the rotor height too much with custom hats because then your caliper will be too far out or too far in, hitting your wheel or knuckle.

I know. Seriously bud, have some faith. I'm edumacated. I'm talking about possibly 10mm, and there is plenty of room for it.

A guy at work always tells me state the obvious. Not because he's being obnoxious, but just because it will always make the situation more clear. You know, like ensuring you use the blue marker for the marker check when you're checking the parts that you have to use the blue marker for.

But as for your 10mm, I'm assuming inwards. IIRC there's about 2-3mm of gap between the rotor and the ball joint when the car is on the ground. In my case, I had some really fat ball joints that I even had to slightly dremel to get any gap. The rotor had an auto-ebrake (the rotor crushed against the ball joint). So pushing the rotor inwards isn't going to be easy either.

And also, there are different versions of the aluminum knuckle. I think there is a slight hub height difference between them, because I had the rotor/ball joint rubbing issue whereas many others have not. You can tell the difference by looking at the tie rod arm.



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