well guys i went back to the shop today and tried to get some numbers on the flex of the rear axle...
i was still unhappy with the numbers i had with the bar installed 4 + inches of flex was still in the axle, so i did some figuring and tried to see where the factory axle was weak and we have found it.
with this new/refabbed design it brings axle flex to less than 1/2" max. the factory axle bends and twist along the front beam a ton so this design addresses that issue and helps stiffen the rear some as well. notice there are 5 bolts attaching the piece of plating to the factory torsion beam
weight is about 15 lbs overall, this will replace teh rear sway bar if people have it installed
i wills still do this version for $100, shipping to be between 20 and 50 bucks
enough of me rambling here are the pics,
BOTTOM
TOP
INSTALLED
$150 tops, shipped, and it bolts in?
Ummm... @!#$ yes!
Well dang with that many cross supports it should never flex.
lol
Just send me one and payment info.
-M
Remember....syringes go in the RED waste basket.
Justtest it on the road first though, really stress test your welds.
-M
Remember....syringes go in the RED waste basket.
So........this is a tie bar/sway bar then? I think I'd rather have two pieces instead of one. You don't want a straight axle for street driving. I bet this thing would make a street cavi drive like $hit.
The tie bar is to make sure the wheels point straight and the sway bar is to help articulation in turns. Both do a very specific job and only when needed. This just looks like you might as well weld a piece of plate metal to the top of the whole damn thing. Blah....keep it.
Might be great for left turners and nice flat race tracks......
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Friday, June 05, 2009 1:01 PM
"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous
What he said. ^^^^^^
I really don't understand the philosophy of eliminating the flex there is in the rear axle.
If that were the case, GM would've just installed a straight solid axle like Chrysler/ Dodge did with alot of their cars.
For basic commuting this would be ideal but most of us want good response with the car.
This would also increase the unsprung weight tremendously which again would deteriorate the J-bodies already poor from the factory handling.
Good luck with it though for those that are wanting something like this.
Now if someone could just make some fender braces for our cars, the world would be a better place.
Misnblu.com
Newbie member since 1999
Thank you Dave and JBO! 
to eliminate flex misnblu is to increase weight transfer and maintain static alignment setttings through out excessively hard cornering.
if the exle twists dont you bet the the alignment settings move as well?
cars that are setup up for racing, any type of racing are set up staticly to perform under race conditions. if there is a way to maintain these settings to not figure in to setup for twist and other factors it is a huge gain in performance.
the weight of this bar is less than 15 lbs, by the 'ole hand scale it weighs about as much as the addco aftermarket bar with the brackets and links etc
Bob Guptill wrote:to eliminate flex misnblu is to increase weight transfer and maintain static alignment setttings through out excessively hard cornering.
I've seen just the opposite to be true. Flex = weight transfer. Increasing weight t-fer is bad in racing, just about any style other than drag.
Bob Guptill wrote:if the exle twists dont you bet the the alignment settings move as well?
That is what a 'real' tie bar and sway bar keeps from happening and why you use them in the first place.
Bob Guptill wrote:cars that are setup up for racing, any type of racing are set up staticly to perform under race conditions. if there is a way to maintain these settings to not figure in to setup for twist and other factors it is a huge gain in performance.
Sounds like some nice "left turners club BS". Have you ever heard of Auto-X/road track? There's right turns too!!!
Bob Guptill wrote:the weight of this bar is less than 15 lbs, by the 'ole hand scale it weighs about as much as the addco aftermarket bar with the brackets and links etc
Good, then the only benefit to this is the crappy suspension articulation? Sweet......
Sorry to sound kinda mean, but I cant stand the 'left turn' logic of thought...It is so wrong. So many of them fail to realize there is many many many other types of racing and they always think that if it works on the lefty's then it works anywhere. NASCAR is so gay. They can get away with suspension murder when you have 30+ degree sloped banks...such a fake race. NASCAR is the most 'juiced' industry there is....MLB has got nothing on them.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edited Saturday, June 06, 2009 2:30 PM
"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous
Yeah, probably not the best idea for my street car.
But, not trying to sound mean, for Bob - who never takes right turns - why should he give a @!#$?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Saturday, June 06, 2009 12:14 PM
Bob Guptill wrote:to eliminate flex misnblu is to increase weight transfer and maintain static alignment settings through out excessively hard cornering.
if the exle twists dont you bet the the alignment settings move as well?
cars that are setup up for racing, any type of racing are set up staticly to perform under race conditions. if there is a way to maintain these settings to not figure in to setup for twist and other factors it is a huge gain in performance.
the weight of this bar is less than 15 lbs, by the 'ole hand scale it weighs about as much as the addco aftermarket bar with the brackets and links etc
What you've just stated sounds to me like chassis bracing for stiffness.
Get a stiff chassis and all of the above you mentioned will actually work. Suspensions stay aligned to do their job and then you can set the car up for proper damping of the shocks/ struts for smooth, proper weight transfer.
And I concur with Mr. Dearman, well said.
Misnblu.com
Newbie member since 1999
Thank you Dave and JBO!
KFLO wrote:Yeah, probably not the best idea for my street car.
But, not trying to sound mean, for Bob - who never takes right turns - why should he give a @!#$?
If they never make right turns...fine...do what you want to think the car works better...great. Don't leave the land of the lefts and think you know ANYTHING about suspension setup for 'racing'. I'm not trying to pick on Bob, just venting. Don't take this personally there Bob, you seem like a great guy. I'm just venting at all the times in the past when I was building formula SAE cars that I'd get some left-ers in the shop running their mouth like they are badas$'s and everybody else is wrong. BLAH!
Banked turns makes anybody good, and any @!#$ty suspension decent. It would be like a steam driven plane launcher on a drag strip....hoorah! Everybody gets a 1 second 60' and runs their mouth like somehow their cars did it.
Anyway, what happened to the roots of the sport? The sport started on the truest meaning of road course, where in the hell did it become all about the left's? Too juiced for me.
EDIT:
To touch on the 'static' suspension setup you mention. That only exists on the lefty's, in real racing nothing is static. Suspensions articulate during accel, decel, L+R turns, sweeps, ect. A good well layed out suspension will be a 'jack-of-all-trades,-master-of-none' deal with lots of driver feedback and some forgiveness.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edited Sunday, June 07, 2009 12:27 AM
"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous
Just cause i race cavaliers you think all i do is turn left? i have built numerous auto-x and scca cars. hell we even bring our race cars on rally runs up the mountains in NH sometimes.
this setup worked great tonight in the race by the way
i will stand by my thoughts on all the fwd race cars i have built for any types of racing stiff is great in the rear. we also run on tracks with little or no banking... this bar doesnt help much on banked tracks
suspensions to articulate.. yes but if you think the alignment settings are not moving when that is happening then your are just an idiot. maybe ill throw the gopro cam on the rear bumper to show how these axles move going around hard corners...
You guys are jumping on Bob like he is trying top sell a product here. I do not think he is. He simplely sharing what he dsigned for his car. Which happens to be set-up for left turns. What is wrong with that? Nothing that I'm aware.
FU Tuning
No, just having a simple conversation on the subject.
It's a good thread with no harsh words and information is flowing about the topic.
Couldn't ask for a better thread.
Bob seems to know what he's doing and since we don't know the complete story on his setup for the entire car, we're just trying to get a better picture of what's going on and why it's happening.
Good luck Bob and that camera idea would be a very good idea because alot of us really never thought that we'd have that much flex in the twist beam axle.
Misnblu.com
Newbie member since 1999
Thank you Dave and JBO!
Sorry there John, I don't mean to come off like I'm jumping on Bob.
Bob, also, the rear suspension flex will not change the alignment in terms of tire tracking when a proper tie bar and sway bar are installed. Notice how far out the rear bushings sit. That is the limit to where twist along the axle can be created. To preach otherwise would be ignorant.
"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous
the buching are is just the start of the rear flex. we jacked up the car with no bar right beside the tire on the axle and the entire thing twists. the compressed wheel toes in and cmabers to the negative while the free wheel stays close to what it is set at.. the problem is the outside is what is helping the car. i will try to get measurements but it looked to toe in about .75 inches.
ill see if i can safely mount the camera... we are renting the track thursday i think i will do it with the rear bar and without
Wait..wait...wait. Your jacking up the car in the wrong position then if you were driving. The tire applies a torque to the axle when loaded since the tire mounting flange sits out away from the axle a good 2.5 inches or so. Your loading directly on the axle itself which is giving you wrong impressions. Also, some negative chamber and some toe in is exactly what you would want to see on a loaded outside tire during a turn....at least when on the road. Not sure about a banked track tho. Next time, if you can, try loading the axle from the tire patch. I think you'll find different evidence, maybe better, maybe worse...not sure.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edited Tuesday, June 09, 2009 1:14 PM
"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous
my jack wont fit under the tire when on the ground...... haha
if anything in circle track you want the the outside tire to toe out, give it eh rear steer effect... but staying how i put it is what i prefer
Bob Guptill wrote:my jack wont fit under the tire when on the ground...... haha
if anything in circle track you want the the outside tire to toe out, give it eh rear steer effect... but staying how i put it is what i prefer
lol.
If it toe's out some it will try to bring the back out from behind the front, up the bank of the turn. Toe-in is what your looking for, to keep the back end underneath the front while in the turn.
Not sure if that is exactly true on your style racing tho.
"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous
on fwd you want teh back to step out.. we steer it with the throttle, when it gets loose just hit the gas and it pulls back straight. we strive for 0 understeer
ive watched the movie cars to.
I'm tired of wasting my time... now I'm breakin' free.
