Hi, I'm new to the Sunfire, front wheel drive, j-body and actually domestic cars so I'm searching the forum but I'm at a disadvantage because I don't know the names of common mods or other models. (NWF mod, n-body)
I have a 2000 Sunfire Coupe 2.2 OHV and right now (like I'm headed to the yard in an hour) I'm looking for info on swaybars or other suspension mods I might be able to find in a junkyard. My car has NO front swaybar (is that even what you call them here?) so I'm planning to pull one off another Sunfire. I'm also going to check the Grand-Am swaybar, I think I read somewhere on here that it might also fit but be larger. Any cars with a factory rear bar?
This isn't a junkyard mod but I'm wondering about springs too. I don't really want to lower my car (rural NY, dirt roads happen) but I could park a friggin tanker truck between the top of my tire and the top of the wheel arch. (Z24 17" rims) I know this car has bottom-of-the barrel struts and stock springs so I'm thinking about HD springs (Moog Cargo Control), front (+ rear?) swaybar and better struts to start with. GR-2 struts at min, maybe $omething a little better. I bid on some AGX units but lost out on those.
I got this car for $200 with 170,000mi on it. I have 180k now and it runs really well, burns no oil and is a very clean car over-all. The engine looks tight with very little built-up oil/dirt. I'm running Rotella T6 in the engine and Mobil 1 in the manual trans. I'll be searching for old posts and posting my own questions but the things I want to upgrade/fix in the near future are:
Suspension - better cornering and better ride control.
Shifting - Loose, sloppy shifter. Would like higher engagement point on the clutch pedal travel. I always push all the way but I want full separation WITHOUT pushing into the carpet.
Engine - Meh, its the base 2.2. If I keep the car I'll probably build a new engine for it with mild upgrades. Not looking for power or an eco swap. Probably. Probably not worth roller rockers or other internal work on a 180k engine.
Thanks for looking,
Mac
New to this forum too... What's the point of a user name if the forum is going to post my name anyway? Grr...
Dig through this forum some. there is quite a bit of info.
Eibach, STD, Koni, GC, Canucks....etc. there are tons of different things.
Thanks, Hooptie. I'm searching now but I'm having to learn everything all at once. I didn't know WTF a j-body was before I found this place. A lot of times mods get named things that "everybody knows" and they are easy to find: "Search for 'grancoil mod, dumbass'" but if you don't know grand-ams have coil springs you can use on a Sunfire you're SOL until you ask.
So I'm trying to find some info but first I had to figure out what body style and series I had and all that. I know that brand name already, yo!
/\/\ac
NWF-swap, IRS swap, and Neon rear disc brake swap are all junkyard upgrades that are stickied at the top of this forum.
Dirt roads are not an acceptable excuse. I live on a 3/4 mile long dirt road that sees alot of tractor trailer traffic(gas well drilling companies) and i am lowered on Tein Super Street coil-overs and i had Easystreet airride before that. My ride heights were set to paved road heights(low) and i didnt/dont have a problem.
Boost > N/A
180hp in 1989 or 260hp in 2008, you decide. Quad < Ecotec
If you're looking to go all out on your suspension, just look up the following
Front and rear strut bar (GM makes a great front strut bar with firewall mounts, it came on the verts)
Front and rear sway bars (eibach and addco make great kits)
Trunk bar
K bar
Rear tie bar
Floor bar
I'm sure there are others, but those are the basics, and the car will feel completely different after all that.
Also a good set of lowing springs and struts that can handle the drop would be a good starting point. But chassis stiffening is cheap and makes a big difference.
Paying someone to install parts and bragging about it being fast, is like watching someone bang your wife and being proud to raise their kids.
may be best if you go to the yard and tell us what you have available, pics a bonus
Thanks for the input, everyone.
I'm headed out to the yard right now, no pics 'cause my phone camera sucks but I'll try and take some notes. I've got two yards to choose from and I've always walked past a LOT of GM sedans on the way down to the ferrin parts section. I'm going to get an OE front swaybar from a Sunfire and check it against a Grand-AM because I think I ready that the Grand-am fits but is larger diameter. I figure a stock front bar is better than NO bar at all.
I don't think I'm ever looking to go "all out" with this suspension but I do want a better ride and better control. The car has too much body roll and the struts in it now pretty much lock up with high speed compression but are fine on rolling roads and low speed compression. Not shot, just crap quality.
Oh! The car has a front strut tower brace I got of CL for $15. It was mounted on a Cavalier and has a tab to go over a stud on the firewall but on the Sunfire this tab is like 6in from the stud. Is the bar just going between the towers doing anything for me at all?
/\/\ac
I made all my bracing and love it.
if the bar is connected to the two strut towers then yes it is acting as a normal strut tower bar would.
the vert bar is just nice because it has firewall mounting points. just one more place (or two depending on the bar) to attach it to.
Macmatic wrote:Thanks for the input, everyone.
I'm headed out to the yard right now, no pics 'cause my phone camera sucks but I'll try and take some notes. I've got two yards to choose from and I've always walked past a LOT of GM sedans on the way down to the ferrin parts section. I'm going to get an OE front swaybar from a Sunfire and check it against a Grand-AM because I think I ready that the Grand-am fits but is larger diameter. I figure a stock front bar is better than NO bar at all.
I don't think I'm ever looking to go "all out" with this suspension but I do want a better ride and better control. The car has too much body roll and the struts in it now pretty much lock up with high speed compression but are fine on rolling roads and low speed compression. Not shot, just crap quality.
Oh! The car has a front strut tower brace I got of CL for $15. It was mounted on a Cavalier and has a tab to go over a stud on the firewall but on the Sunfire this tab is like 6in from the stud. Is the bar just going between the towers doing anything for me at all?
/\/\ac
The Cavalier and Sunfire uni-body is exactly the same, so all suspension components will be the same. If the tab on your strut bar is that far away from the firewall, it wasn't meant to be attached to it.
03+ J-bodies have a larger sway bar up front than the earlier years, grab one of those.
Paying someone to install parts and bragging about it being fast, is like watching someone bang your wife and being proud to raise their kids.
The Hooptie wrote:I made all my bracing and love it.
And you still havent made me any
blucavvy wrote:if the bar is connected to the two strut towers then yes it is acting as a normal strut tower bar would.
the vert bar is just nice because it has firewall mounting points. just one more place (or two depending on the bar) to attach it to.
Prime example what I mean about terminology being a problem. WTF is a vert bar? I've searched on here but only found references to the vert bar but no details on what it is and Google has been no help so far. The bar I have SHOULD mount to the firewall but the tab that should attach to the stud is about 8in to the right (L from front of car) of where the stud is. I thought maybe it was a Sunfire/Cav or year difference.
Transporter7220 wrote:
The Cavalier and Sunfire uni-body is exactly the same, so all suspension components will be the same. If the tab on your strut bar is that far away from the firewall, it wasn't meant to be attached to it.
03+ J-bodies have a larger sway bar up front than the earlier years, grab one of those.
Thanks for the tip on the year. I found an '04 with a smashed rear end and got the bar off that. I wasn't sure if it would fit the 2000 so I "weeded it" untli I can go back this weekend. There was also an Alero with aluminum arms that I'm thinking of grabbing too, they'll only be about $40 for the pair. I need to do tie rod ends and and I'd like to do bushings so I might as well do this mod too if for nothing else than the Cool Factor™.
Can someone fill me in on the details of what I have to make it easier to search the forum? Like I said before I'm totally new to these cars, I didn't grow up wrenching on American iron so I don't know the families and naming systems.
I have a 2000 Sunfire 2.2 Coupe, 5 speed manual.
Engine is family is called:
This engine:
Trans made by:
Called:
This is a 2nd gen Sunfire? 3rd would be the Ecotech era cars?
Any other info you can give would be appreciated. Links to popular mods, specifically anything for better handling, better braking or better power.
If I keep this car it'll end up being second car to a small truck. If I do that I want to build a "stock" engine with mild upgrades like roller rockers, polished chambers and port matching if it needs it. Kinda late to the game with a 2000 but I'm used to working on cars 3x as old!
/\/\ac
What about exhaust? The exhaust is solid on this car but its also a hack job of shiddy welds and clamped on sleeves. Are the Cheap As Dirt headers on ebay actually stainless? Will they HURT performance? I can't kid myself that a $50 pipe is going to help anything but if it doesn't actually HURT I could do it. Ideally I'd like a header (Or maybe just a better downpipe? The OE one looks tiny), a good Cat and maybe a 2.25 - 2.5in system from the cat back with a free flowing dual outlet single muffler or maybe the ebay $170 dual outlet kit with two single outlet mufflers. (Kit is pipes only)
And suspension. I have three main problems with the suspension on this car:
Too high: I've got 4+ inches between the top of the tire and the crown of the wheel arch with 17in rims. Maybe it is what it is but it looks silly. If something else I improve also changes this I'll be happy..
Too low: Someone above said dirt roads weren't a reason to avoid lowering springs. Around here is it! I can stick to pavement but if I want to go off into State Land or something the roads get really hairy and I scrape all the time now so I really don't want to go lower. Also I'm going to have to buy a new jack for this car because none of my floor jacks can get under it!
Too soft: Also too hard. Too much body roll, too soft in the springs and the struts in the car now might as well be bar stock when you hit a pothole or crack in the pavement but they do OK as far as controlling the springs. I think they were put in at Costco by the PO.
How are the Monroe Sensa-Trac struts? I've always used KYB Selecta-Ride, Gas-a-just or GR-2 or Bilstein shocks.
I don't really want to spend more than around $250 on struts. I'm thinking about the Silver (made in Japan) KYB GR-2 struts at just about $250 for the four. Any input on those or other ideas?
I'm pretty sure I'm going with Moog Cargo Control variable rate springs, about $130 for all four springs. Here are the specs.
Front: CC259
Free height/Installed Height: 13.12in / 11in
Load rate: 307 lbs
Spring Rate 161lbs/in
Rear: CC683
Free Height/ Installed Height 14.25in / 10in
Load Rate: 454 lbs
Spring Rate: 114lbs/in
So new struts, new control arm prothane bushings, '04 front swaybar and these Moog springs seems like it should bring the handling back to stock and improve it well beyond that. Would the addco 1in rear bar work well with the '04 front bar? I didn't measure it but was probably 22mm or so? I have the part number written down.
/\/\ac
Alright now you're just being lazy... you seem to be able to do a lot of reading on other sites but you haven't been doing much reading on here.
The Vert bar is the front strut bar from a convertible j-body, GR-2's are crap for anything but the stock springs. The rest of your questions can be answered quite easily with the search bar. Sway bars are sway bars, lowering springs are lowering springs, the best brands may change vehicle to vehicle but the names of the parts do not. Just start searching.
I gave you that list of suspension pieces so you would search for them, every one of those will bring up countless threads on the subject.
Paying someone to install parts and bragging about it being fast, is like watching someone bang your wife and being proud to raise their kids.
Transporter7220 wrote:Alright now you're just being lazy... you seem to be able to do a lot of reading on other sites but you haven't been doing much reading on here.
Sorry you gotta be so wrong on that one.
Transporter7220 wrote:The Vert bar is the front strut bar from a convertible j-body, GR-2's are crap for anything but the stock springs. The rest of your questions can be answered quite easily with the search bar.
Thanks! So vert bar is convertible bar, now it makes sense. I haven't seen one in the yard yet but now I know what to look for. But as for everything being easy, sorry. Maybe if you've been a member here for months/years and know the history and the terminology. The search function here seems pretty weird too but I'll learn how to phrase searches soon enough. You did give me some good info though and it has lead to a lot of interesting reading.
And thanks for your input on the GR-2's. I've used the US made and Japan made ones and the Japan made ones have worked out pretty well in the past. I'll be doing more reading but options seem really limited for struts on these if you aren't looking for adjustable or lowered suspension. What I'm looking to build is a stockish height suspension with better body control and somewhat improved struts at the lowest price I can get them. OEM struts would have to be better than what I have now so while GR-2's might suck compared to a lot of other options they are probably as good or maybe better than OEM, aren't they?
Transporter7220 wrote:Sway bars are sway bars, lowering springs are lowering springs, the best brands may change vehicle to vehicle but the names of the parts do not. Just keep searching.
Fixed that last part for ya. So are you saying that the bar size doesn't matter? I can have a skinny little bar up front and a big fat bar in the back or the other way around and it isn't going to effect the handling one way or another? What about spring rate? See I was wondering how the stock '04 bar would work with the 1in Addco rear bar which is kind of specific and I haven't found a thread that covered it yet. Hell, I can't even find the thread that listed the part numbers for the various bars right now.
Transporter7220 wrote:I gave you that list of suspension pieces so you would search for them, every one of those will bring up countless threads on the subject.
Yep, and I've been wading through countless pages of search results and reading countless threads looking for info that applies to my countless questions.
/\/\ac
First off, read the suspension FAQ as far as sway bar sizes. Most people will go crazy telling you if you get a rear sway and don't upgrade the front, you'll instantly oversteer and spin the car around, pff. Maybe with NO front swaybar you would.... If you get the biggest stock front one, it's very close to the size of most of the aftermarket ones.
IMO the rear sway bar made the BIGGEST difference of the suspension mods I have done, it gets rid of all that ridiculous body roll you're talking about (assuming you get a front one too!) IMO you can do whatever else mods you want, but wtf does it matter if you get slammed into your door and feel like the car is going to flip doing a 30mph turn, ha.
List people have said, the stock GM front strutbar off a convertible...... it helps, some have one mounting tab some have two (going into the firewall), if you don't have the bolts there, just add them in, it's simple enough.
Trunkbar (try gmscf.com for misnblu's writeup on it.... he's the originator and has all kinda suspension ideas.) Another junkyard part you can get for cheap, it's the front strut bar off some cadillacs. I got one off a deville I believe the name was.... You can go with 5/8" bolts/nuts/washers for some really beefy support of the bar. Note: the wheel well in the trunk is NOT centered in the trunk, keep that in mind when drilling/marking holes.
A rear tiebar can be made quite easily, email the people at rodendsupply.com and you can get a catalog/price guide from them. There was just a topic about it in this forum, it still may be. I listed the parts I used, as did another member who made his out of a pipe and some weld in bungs. (You can get pre-threaded radius rods for this purpose, you just screw the stuff together, drill two holes and bolt it on, instead of having to weld stuff.)
The wheel well gap above the tires...... you'd be surprised what just a 1.4" drop'll do, it's not that much of a height difference but does wonders for the wheel gap. Ofcourse this'll add a lot of money to the cost of doing the suspension work, as you'll need better struts to handle the drop....
Just my opinions, use them as you will.
Richard K wrote:First off, read the suspension FAQ as far as sway bar sizes. Most people will go crazy telling you if you get a rear sway and don't upgrade the front, you'll instantly oversteer and spin the car around, pff. Maybe with NO front swaybar you would.... If you get the biggest stock front one, it's very close to the size of most of the aftermarket ones.
IMO the rear sway bar made the BIGGEST difference of the suspension mods I have done, it gets rid of all that ridiculous body roll you're talking about (assuming you get a front one too!) IMO you can do whatever else mods you want, but wtf does it matter if you get slammed into your door and feel like the car is going to flip doing a 30mph turn, ha.
Thanks, I'll put a rear bar on the list for sure. I'm going back this weekend to get the '04 front bar, Alero control arms and caddy front bar. I saw several of those caddy bars and I think I left one at the '04.
Richard K wrote:List people have said, the stock GM front strutbar off a convertible...... it helps, some have one mounting tab some have two (going into the firewall), if you don't have the bolts there, just add them in, it's simple enough.
I think I'll add a bolt for the bar I've got in the front already and I might pick up one of those caddy bars for material to make up a rear brace with some 3/16 steel I've got laying around.
Richard K wrote:Trunkbar (try gmscf.com for misnblu's writeup on it.... he's the originator and has all kinda suspension ideas.) Another junkyard part you can get for cheap, it's the front strut bar off some cadillacs. I got one off a deville I believe the name was....
Yep, I've checked that out and will again, looks pretty simple. I'm going to start out with the front bar, struts of some kind and probably the Cargo Carrier springs and then work from there. I'm liking that Neon rear brake swap too... that is the stock bolt pattern isn't it?
Richard K wrote:A rear tiebar can be made quite easily, email the people at rodendsupply.com and you can get a catalog/price guide from them. There was just a topic about it in this forum, it still may be. I listed the parts I used, as did another member who made his out of a pipe and some weld in bungs. (You can get pre-threaded radius rods for this purpose, you just screw the stuff together, drill two holes and bolt it on, instead of having to weld stuff.)
Great link! This goes across the axle tubes under the spare tire well? I know I'll find this answer elsewhere but is this done in addition to or instead of a rear sway bar?
Richard K wrote:The wheel well gap above the tires...... you'd be surprised what just a 1.4" drop'll do, it's not that much of a height difference but does wonders for the wheel gap. Ofcourse this'll add a lot of money to the cost of doing the suspension work, as you'll need better struts to handle the drop....
It'll be a month or two before I do anything more than the front swaybar, I may change my mind on lowering the car but if not I'll live with the gap. Hell, I've been modding Volvo 240's for the last 20 years, I can deal with a styling flaw or two... the fat ass on this sunfire though, that makes me wish I had an unlimited budget so I could show GM what they should have done.
Thanks, I need to go over the FAQ's a few more times for sure and I've got to start keeping some better notes. I've been trying to pack 20 pages of info into a 10 page mind... I can only read 20 pages or so at a clip though before my eyes start bleeding a little.
Thanks to everyone who has replied to this thread for helping out a newb.
/\/\ac
Matmatic wrote: I'm liking that Neon rear brake swap too... that is the stock bolt pattern
isn't it?
Yes it's the same bolt pattern, you use the same hub w/ the lug studs, the mod is basically
just a caliper bracket that gets tossed into the mix (simply put)
Matmatic wrote:AGreat link! This goes across the axle tubes under the spare tire well? I
know I'll find this answer elsewhere but is this done in addition to or instead of a rear
sway bar?
In addition to, they do different things. You'll feel the difference as soon as you take a
turn though, the car'll steer a lot smoother without that "bumping around" sensation. Yes
it attaches to the end of each side of the rear suspension, below the strut (towards the
rear of the car... just look up some pics), just two holes that need to be drilled. Gotta
get the car up pretty high to fit a drill + bit under there though. I believe Misnblu has
some pics of this (aswell as a lot of other pics, check out his website too, misnblu.com and
click on his car's pic-->library section) (Side note to blu: Damn you gonna get even more
popular now eh?)
Matmatic wrote:
Thanks, I need to go over the FAQ's a few more times for sure and I've got to start keeping
some better notes. I've been trying to pack 20 pages of info into a 10 page mind... I can
only read 20 pages or so at a clip though before my eyes start bleeding a little.
Haha, that's understandable, I'm the same way, try reading the neon disc swap end for end
without your brain going into a coma or your eyes glazing over.
