I'm a strong proponent of neutral handling and it should be the goal. But our car's horrible 63%/37% - 64%/36% weight distribution, FWD, dated and limited rear twist beam, you have to be careful on how you tune the rear to prevent what happened on this vid at higher speeds. The car in the vid is a Cobalt SS and it uses the same antiquated (if not older) suspension than ours. But it gives a good indication of what will happen when you have oversteer on a FWD. Remember, oversteer on a FWD is a different characteristic than RWD oversteer.
I bring this vid because I'm seeing we are stiffening the rear so much, that the twist beam's articulation is being reduced with every piece put in; reducing the neutral characteristic. To then it will become dangerous, some folks add pieces just for the sake of adding stuff to their cars with out thinking twice on the ill effects of it.
I hope for some this vid gives a wake up call to the road you're heading. Literally.
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Damn, that was a hit. Props to on-star.
That is what happens when you don't know how to control a FWD car with oversteer.
That's like saying everyone with a turbo is going to blow the motor. You need to know what you are doing and how to control it.
So he let off in a section of the track where he is not suppose to...and the car over steered. I can not remember the name of the track, but that happens a lot there on that exact turn.
PRND321 Till I DIE
Old Motor: 160whp & 152ft/lbs, 1/4 Mile 15.4 @88.2
M45 + LD9 + 4T40-E, GO GO GO
LOLZ at On-Star. I dont think that wreck was so much a car problem as it was driver error.
Mr Goodwrench is right though in what he's saying.
Most of us only autocross so we keep the stock front sway bar with the usual poly endlinks and D bushings but add an Addco rear bar to achieve that better cornering for autocross. This has a tendency to bring the rear around in mild autocrossing the car.
But on the track such as what we'd seen, any little over correction or going it too strong will make the car just let loose because if that Cobalt would've been a bit more pliable in the rear, I think he would've made that section with no problems.
This is probably one of the reasons why I removed my tie bar because after doing some tests to the car last week with and without the tiebar, I noticed that there was much more motion from the rear trailing arms whereas with the tiebar, lots of bind and less motion from the rear of the suspension.
Having driven the car without it I'd say it's better but I've not had that chance to wring it out on the back roads but that's coming and I'll some further evaluation of this in time.
Good point Mr. Goodwrench and maybe something that will awaken the people. You can have the chassis as stiff as you want (ideal setup btw) but the suspension still has to do it's job which is to keep the wheels planted under all conditions you're putting the car through.
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Newbie member since 1999
Thank you Dave and JBO! 
Another note. A car with slight over steer will always be faster around a track than a car that is neutral or has under steer. ALL of the people I know that road race have their cars setup for over steer.
I agree 100% that it is safer to have under steer. That is why all production cars are setup that way...
PRND321 Till I DIE
Old Motor: 160whp & 152ft/lbs, 1/4 Mile 15.4 @88.2
M45 + LD9 + 4T40-E, GO GO GO
ouchies... insurance wont cover that..
LE61T PTE6262 Powered
I wonder what tires were used. It sounded like traction was scarce--unless he was driving the corners too aggressively. The flick that I saw in 0:42-0:43 didn't him help any. I think that's what unsettled the suspension leading to the crash. Driver error is what I think happened.
Thanks for sharing this vid.
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NCR-SCCA
-MD- Enforcer wrote:Another note. A car with slight over steer will always be faster around a track than a car that is neutral or has under steer. ALL of the people I know that road race have their cars setup for over steer.
I agree 100% that it is safer to have under steer. That is why all production cars are setup that way...
Dead wrong. 50/50 weight distribution and a neutral handling will ALWAYS be the fastest way around the track... You think Nascar teams set up for oversteer? Hell no, they shoot for neutral first, then based on driver preference ONLY will they error to the side of over or understeer.
You have to understand, the fastest way around a corner is with all 4 tires hooked up... Saying oversteering is the fastest way around an asphalt or concrete track is like saying that spinning one rear slick at the tree is the fastest way down the quarter mile. It makes no sense.
Buildin' n' Boostin for 08' - Alex Richards
color me lost... why did on-star activate? the air bags didnt blow...
either way, that sucks, he was quite a ways away from the rail too...
If it takes forever.... I will die trying. Underdog Racing
a number of things could have attributed to that accident...
letting off mid corner at speed is a big no-no. looks like he went in hot instead of braking before the turn and tried to slow mid corner. driver was also not very smooth with his steering inputs.
at these speeds aerodynamics would come into play as well. use of a functional air dam, spoiler, and rear diffuser would help to insure that the car is better planted and may have prevented this. (granted i'm assuming that we're dealing with a street car at a hpde event)
Just a note. Yes nascar we do set the cars up wih a bit of oversteer. That is the fast way around. You ever see how much they dog walk down the straightaways. That is so they will rotate better in the corners. Which in all reality is a loose condition. Loose is alwats faster in circle track racing.
Mike wrote:That is what happens when you don't know how to control a FWD car with oversteer.
That's like saying everyone with a turbo is going to blow the motor. You need to know what you are doing and how to control it.
No.
Misnblu wrote:Mr Goodwrench is right though in what he's saying.
Most of us only autocross so we keep the stock front sway bar with the usual poly endlinks and D bushings but add an Addco rear bar to achieve that better cornering for autocross. This has a tendency to bring the rear around in mild autocrossing the car.
But on the track such as what we'd seen, any little over correction or going it too strong will make the car just let loose because if that Cobalt would've been a bit more pliable in the rear, I think he would've made that section with no problems.
This is probably one of the reasons why I removed my tie bar because after doing some tests to the car last week with and without the tiebar, I noticed that there was much more motion from the rear trailing arms whereas with the tiebar, lots of bind and less motion from the rear of the suspension.
Having driven the car without it I'd say it's better but I've not had that chance to wring it out on the back roads but that's coming and I'll some further evaluation of this in time.
Good point Mr. Goodwrench and maybe something that will awaken the people. You can have the chassis as stiff as you want (ideal setup btw) but the suspension still has to do it's job which is to keep the wheels planted under all conditions you're putting the car through.
Yes. Exactly too.
Alex Richards wrote:-MD- Enforcer wrote:Another note. A car with slight over steer will always be faster around a track than a car that is neutral or has under steer. ALL of the people I know that road race have their cars setup for over steer.
I agree 100% that it is safer to have under steer. That is why all production cars are setup that way...
Dead wrong. 50/50 weight distribution and a neutral handling will ALWAYS be the fastest way around the track... You think Nascar teams set up for oversteer? Hell no, they shoot for neutral first, then based on driver preference ONLY will they error to the side of over or understeer.
You have to understand, the fastest way around a corner is with all 4 tires hooked up... Saying oversteering is the fastest way around an asphalt or concrete track is like saying that spinning one rear slick at the tree is the fastest way down the quarter mile. It makes no sense.
Correct Alex.
Not to sure on Nascar though (you may know about this more), but upon accelerating, it becomes power oversteer. F1 and IMSA prepares to be the most neutral possible too, but being RWD, again, power oversteer creeps it's head out.
strat81 wrote:a number of things could have attributed to that accident...
letting off mid corner at speed is a big no-no. looks like he went in hot instead of braking before the turn and tried to slow mid corner. driver was also not very smooth with his steering inputs.
at these speeds aerodynamics would come into play as well. use of a functional air dam, spoiler, and rear diffuser would help to insure that the car is better planted and may have prevented this. (granted i'm assuming that we're dealing with a street car at a hpde event)
He let off before hitting that left corner. As soon as that steering did a left 15-20 degrees that tail became loose. He let off because he was not asking the the front wheels to do more than one job entering that corner. The driver had little to no fault here. The car did.
I will say and agree, aerodynamics (could've) played a role, and although the car was going quickly, I don't think he was going fast enough in which aero mods would have warrant downforce. Unless downforce angles were really aggressive.
z yaaaa wrote:color me lost... why did on-star activate? the air bags didnt blow...
either way, that sucks, he was quite a ways away from the rail too...
It was activated because of gyroscopic device called "YAW" sensors and speed sensors; with in the car, reading the angle between the vehicle's heading and vehicle actual movement direction and then the sudden zero MPH respectively... the car called Onstar. Onstar doesn't always check on you just because of airbag deployment only.
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Either way folks, be very careful on how you tune your car, because although this was a corner in a closed track, that corner could be some one cutting you off. And if the car doesn't communicate to what you ask, you can get into a serious problem.
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-----The orginal Mr.Goodwrench on the JBO since 11/99-----
It said "On Star Neck Injury" I'm pretty sure. Sensors have to hit a certain way for bags to deploy, those sensors still record data even if the computer doesn't decide to trigger bags, and that data gets relayed to On Star so they known potential nature of the crash.
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BlackEco wrote:It said "On Star Neck Injury" I'm pretty sure. Sensors have to hit a certain way for bags to deploy, those sensors still record data even if the computer doesn't decide to trigger bags, and that data gets relayed to On Star so they known potential nature of the crash.
on star emergency, wtf you listening to? lol
and on star called because of the gyroscopes in the car sensing the G force to be way out of proportion. there was a camaro at the drag strip on you tube that had the same thing happen because it was twin turbo and the g force was setting off the on star and it kept calling him
BTW, cobalts check engine light is on...
so, Mr Goodwrench is blaming the uber bad antique suspension for this accident?
did we watch the same video?
if he's at an HPDE event or whatever, thats fine. but his driving doesn't seem that great.
if a car is TUNED for oversteer, it will oversteer when letting off the throttle.
he downshifts and brakes early into the left at 0:13, which goes into a right at 0:16 where he gets back on the throttle.
car understeers until 0:20.
back on the brakes at 0:26, downshifts and into a left hander, back on the throttle at 0:33 the car is understeering.
at 0:45 he downshifted and it doesn't seem like he applied the brakes at all, when he gets into the left hand turn, the car is unsettled and carrying too much speed into the corner.
the back end, (which weighs less than the front) spins out... the car is hopping (which starts after his left front touches the berm) and its all over, nothing he could have done.
to me, the car was behaving the way it should. Driver took the final corner way too fast, and applied no brakes.. the only thing I saw him do was downshift.
Oversteer when tuned in for a particular driver, if they prefer it, is fine. And I'm talking about race cars only here..
road cars should almost always be tuned for as close to neutral as possible.. but with FWD, a car that tends to oversteer can help combat a chassis layout that tends to understeer.
on that note, this car seems to be closer to a street car, and unless Mr. Goodwrench has specific knowledge of this car being modified/ tuned to have oversteer, the argument seems pretty flacid.
This video does nothing but illustrate a driver mistake.
damn, that sucks.. anybody catch how fast he's going before he hits that turn?
Alex Richards wrote:-MD- Enforcer wrote:Another note. A car with slight over steer will always be faster around a track than a car that is neutral or has under steer. ALL of the people I know that road race have their cars setup for over steer.
I agree 100% that it is safer to have under steer. That is why all production cars are setup that way...
Dead wrong. 50/50 weight distribution and a neutral handling will ALWAYS be the fastest way around the track... You think Nascar teams set up for oversteer? Hell no, they shoot for neutral first, then based on driver preference ONLY will they error to the side of over or understeer.
You have to understand, the fastest way around a corner is with all 4 tires hooked up... Saying oversteering is the fastest way around an asphalt or concrete track is like saying that spinning one rear slick at the tree is the fastest way down the quarter mile. It makes no sense.
Your 100% wrong. Physics and driver times says sight over steer is faster. As stated above, Nascar and all oval/circle track racing is setup for slight over steer, especially for the first part of the turn.
The absolute faster way around a corner is in a car that over steers in the first part of the turn, is neutral through the middle part of the turn, and under steers on the exit. This is normally accomplished by a FWD car that has slight over steer setup. "Its that thing called weight transfer." Unless you have a high Horsepower RWD car that you can force into over steering with the throttle, or stomp on the brakes for a sec. to get most of the weight off the rear tires and use the weight transfer to force over steer.
You want to be caring the most speed you can out of the corner.
What you do not want is "snap" over steer. That will cause you to loose complete control in most conditions.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:46 AM
PRND321 Till I DIE
Old Motor: 160whp & 152ft/lbs, 1/4 Mile 15.4 @88.2
M45 + LD9 + 4T40-E, GO GO GO
Agreeing with the skwirl on this one...
1. It seems that traction was an issue throughout this entire track.
2. In that first hard right @ about 20 sec. the car was over steering, and it was counter balanced, though VERY late in the corner by accelerating hard. Something that wasn't done throughout.
3. The last unfortunate turn there was no brakes, and seems like an upshift(?!) just before entering.
4. I cant really tell, but it sounds like once the back end steps out he got on the brakes. that is a HUGE no no in a FWD car in that situation, your guaranteed to go of the road.
Based on the evidence at hand, my opinion is driver error. It seems either he forgot where he was on the track, or just really thought the car could handle that corner at that speed.
God my neck hurts watching that...I'm going to have nightmares...
Do we even know anything about the car? Did it even have any upgraded suspension bits? If not, then the car is obviously not setup for oversteer and this was completely driver error - which I believe it was.
Most guys I know that road race FWD cars (granted they are VWs) do not run a front bar at all, and use a large rear bar (and sometimes two rear bars).
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Mr.Goodwrench-G.T. wrote:Mike wrote:That is what happens when you don't know how to control a FWD car with oversteer.
That's like saying everyone with a turbo is going to blow the motor. You need to know what you are doing and how to control it.
No..
Yes...Watch the video again
DaFlyinSkwirl (Pj) v2.0 wrote:so, Mr Goodwrench is blaming the uber bad antique suspension for this accident?
No. Not even the point. Infact, if you know... that car does not leave the factory with oversteer handling.
Quote:
he downshifts and brakes early into the left at 0:13, which goes into a right at 0:16 where he gets back on the throttle.
car understeers until 0:20.
He understeers as he "powers out," that is the natural tendency of a FWD.
Quote:
back on the brakes at 0:26, downshifts and into a left hander, back on the throttle at 0:33 the car is understeering.
Again he "powered out," a FWD characteristic. At 0.33 (where you can see the Apex) is where you can see what this car was tuned for (oversteer).
Quote:
at 0:45 he downshifted and it doesn't seem like he applied the brakes at all, when he gets into the left hand turn, the car is unsettled and carrying too much speed into the corner.
the back end, (which weighs less than the front) spins out... the car is hopping (which starts after his left front touches the berm) and its all over, nothing he could have done. to me, the car was behaving the way it should. Driver took the final corner way too fast, and applied no brakes.. the only thing I saw him do was downshift.
He was carrying the speed in a slalom section, his down shifting let the car lower the speed with out applying the brakes (again front wheels doing multiple jobs at once is not the best move). If the car had neutral handling, that slalom would've been doing a 4-wheel drift and controllable.
Quote:
This video does nothing but illustrate a driver mistake.
If you think this was solely a driver's mistake your, I'd advice you to add protein to your knowledge of this before commenting.
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-----The orginal Mr.Goodwrench on the JBO since 11/99-----
You cant prove anything without specs for the car. Period. I dont care what you say. Without proof that the rear end up is overly beefed up without regard for the front you are fighting a pointless and ignorant battle.
Now if you could provide a mod list I might be more inclined to agree with you.
