does anyone make a true rear anti-roll(sway) bar for the cavalier? im not sure if it can be done, but i would like a bar that will connect to the chassis. not a bar that only stiffens the axle.
the swaybars available are true swaybars.....
cars where it connects to the body have different suspension designs... hence different setups...
so unless you plan to redesign your suspension, get a swaybar thats made for your current suspension design.....
plenty are listed in the FAQ
michael groves wrote:does anyone make a true rear anti-roll(sway) bar for the cavalier? im not sure if it can be done, but i would like a bar that will connect to the chassis. not a bar that only stiffens the axle.
what are you looking to do with your car?
see ya!
Dam-it Muffins (Event) wrote:the swaybars available are true swaybars.....
And they work quite well.
He probably heard something about that "sway bar" in our torsion axle. I don't consider that a sway bar, nor should any educated person.
Aftermarket sway bars are available, and as everyone already said, they work.
ive got sway bars, and i dont consider the rear a true sway bar. it does not connect to the chassis like i previously stated. i hardly noticed any kind of difference in handling when i put the rear on. the front was a differend story.
michael groves wrote:ive got sway bars, and i dont consider the rear a true sway bar. it does not connect to the chassis like i previously stated. i hardly noticed any kind of difference in handling when i put the rear on. the front was a differend story.
its because its a small swaybar... your front one overpowers your rear by far...
general rule of thumb with these cars
you already have UNDERSTEER in stock form....with no bars...
putting on a larger front bar that bigger than your rear bar will keep it in understeer. if not more.
if you wanted a difference you should have used a 25.4mm rear bar and a 18-22mm front.
and yes the rear is a true swaybar... not all swaybars connect to the chassis.
if you need info on swaybars, i suggest you check out a local library for a book called "How to make your car handle"
its author is Fred Puhn. you can also buy it on amazon or lingenfelter.com
different suspension setups require different style swaybars...
just cause you didnt feel an effect, doesnt mean its not a true swaybar.... HOWEVER it IS a direct result of the fact you used the wrong size bars... or more so the right sizes, but on the wrong ends....
any true swaybar will have these components <img src="http://tiger.towson.edu/~apittm1/sway.JPG">
if you need info on effects and changes...
http://www.angelfire.com/md/TOWSONFTBLPLYR/Setup.htm
its the second paragraph...
Any sway bar has to connect to the chassis. How do you have a sway bar that doesn't???
It should connect at either end to the torsion axle, and inward about a foot, it should be attached to the "frame rails" of the unibody. How does yours connect??
You're not confusing a tie bar with a sway bar are you??
michael groves wrote:ive got sway bars, and i dont consider the rear a true sway bar. it does not connect to the chassis like i previously stated. i hardly noticed any kind of difference in handling when i put the rear on. the front was a differend story.
Thats the one thing Eibach hasn't gotten right in my opinion. I'd sell that rear bar and buy an Addco. You may still have some understeer with that setup (I did when I had 1" swaybars in both the front and rear). If that is the case, consider adding a rear tie bar. Event made a write up on how to add a tie bar to the addco bar if that is the case.
See now I have to agree with CTS here. Now Event I know you know what your talking about when it comes to making these things handle but usually a sway bar connects to the frame in order to help keep the body from rolling. This is the reason I'm not planning on getting a sway bar for the rear as I can't see how that little bar could help anything in the rear of the car from flexing. Our axle is a big steel tube so what diff. is
22mm more worth of steel gonna do to help stop the axle tube from twisting? I just
don't see how it could.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Actually it does make a difference. Not a huge difference because, like you said, it's a axle to start with, not independent. Try jacking up under on of the tires once. You'll get one side a good 6" or more off the ground before the other side lifts up. That's because it was meant to flex like that. That 6"+ of lift will translate to body roll when going around corners. With the bar in there the difference would be less, although not gone completely.
/\ /\ /\ /\ That would be more from the front suspension compression then axle twist.
And all your adding is a 22mm bar thats not a lot of steel to stop very much twist. I'd say go with a rear strut bar first then a "sway bar"
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
ive got a strut bar as well. how big of a difference does the tie bar make?
jackalope wrote:See now I have to agree with CTS here. Now Event I know you know what your talking about when it comes to making these things handle but usually a sway bar connects to the frame in order to help keep the body from rolling. This is the reason I'm not planning on getting a sway bar for the rear as I can't see how that little bar could help anything in the rear of the car from flexing. Our axle is a big steel tube so what diff. is
22mm more worth of steel gonna do to help stop the axle tube from twisting? I just
don't see how it could.
do you have a rear swaybar yet? if not i'll take you for a ride.
swaybars have 3 sides, two arms, and a main piece. basically the same design and shape as the rear twist beam.
when you mount the base of the bar to the longest part of the twist beams thats your stationary point.... the arms size and length are mainly what determine the amount of force that wil resist the twist beams twisting.
the same way it connects to the subframe in the front and controls the arms limitations of movement
is the same way it connects to the main part of the suspension trailing frame in the rear and controls the trailing arms twist.
micheal, strut bars help with consistency as well as the tie bar.... under hard cornering the trailing arms flex in or out depending on what turn (left/right) is taken. keeping it consistent keep toe or more or less the track of the wheels consistent.
consistency is the main thing with handling in my view... without consistent suspension its hard to get consistent launches, or consistent lap times.
Ok take your car and drive the rear wheel up on to a curb(stock no sway bar) and see if the oppisite side tire lifts or stays on the ground. Now put on a sway bar just like the ones mention earlier and do the same thing and see what the difference is, depending on the bar the oppisite side normally will lift off the ground. Just by adding bar will help reduce the twist in the rear trailing arm. If you look at the picture of Zach's car, if he hadn't put the sway bar on the rear the rear tire would probably be touching the ground or close to it. Z24's or Sunfire GT's or any with the suspension package have a thin steel rod welded in to the center of the twist beam and that acts as a swaybar.
it really doesn't matter where the bar is located, if you wanted to you could probably get a bar custom made and mount the bar to the car and then have end links to the end of the twist beams but then your probably going to have clearance issues with other stuff under the rear of the car.
Ryan Butchart 1 man, 1 car, 1 lap at a time.
Solo and Event I do understand how a sway bar works but when you lift up on one rear tire your front suspension will compress and alow the 4 wheels to remain on the ground. Now my old Firebird had a rear sway bar and links connecting it to the rear subframe this is more what I consider a swaybar to be. And event I'll take you up on your ride as long as you promiss not to roll your car. I swear I can't see there being a substantial enough difference from a 22mm bar being there or not. But I guess I'll find out.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
im with jackalope, if it doesnt connect from the axle to the car then it doesnt do much good. i know this first hand with installing the front and rear sway bars at different times. the rear was hardly noticable but the front made a huge difference. i can go around corners 10-20 mph faster with it. now the understeer issue, i did not notice much of a difference when installing the front. it could be because my suspension is so stiff all the way around.
michael groves wrote:im with jackalope, if it doesnt connect from the axle to the car then it doesnt do much good. i know this first hand with installing the front and rear sway bars at different times. the rear was hardly noticable but the front made a huge difference. i can go around corners 10-20 mph faster with it. now the understeer issue, i did not notice much of a difference when installing the front. it could be because my suspension is so stiff all the way around.
No offenese, but I think you and jackalope really don't know what your talking about. The rear sway bars available are "real" sway bars and they do work quite well. Micheal, you just haven't setup your suspension properly yet to understand this fact.
I have autocrossed my car without a rear sway bar on a stock suspension and then added the bar and it made a HUGE difference. Like Event has been saying all along, sway bars are really for tuning purposes and I think yours is tuned wrong.
zach---put a front sway bar on your car and tell me what kind of a difference there is. from the look of your sig pic you really need one.
look at my profile b4 you make comments.
Zach no offence taken. Now you don't take offence to this. I was racing at summit point
while you were still doing wheelies on your BMX. I know how a suspension setup works and what works best. I never knocked this "sway bar " You guys are referring too all I said was all the ones I've delt with actualy connected to the frame in some way
not just across the rear axle. Look at all the vehicles that come factory with a rear swaybar I can't think of any that have the style you guys are talking about. Not to say there aren't any I've just never seen them ( or just cant remember them anymore )
USUALLY the bar is anchored to the frame this is how it limits the movement. All this bar is is nothing more then a 22mm torsion bar. And to be honest I would think it should be more then just 22mm if its being user like a torsion bar suspension is.
It just seems like too small of a diameter to make a difference. One inch round bar sure
this I could see as making a difference. But not a bar as small as tis one. BUT I am
resevreing my finail oppion untill I go for a ride with Event. If he can manage to scare the hell out of me without rolling or wrecking his car then I'll see if I feel differently. But for now, no sorry I don't see where this does anymore then a bunch of racing stickers.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Event: OK, your right (there was no doubt), but so am I. I took what Michael said to mean that his bar was only hooked to the end of the trailing arms, and no where else. As you know, that wouldn't do much. When I said hooked to the chassis (or frame) I meant those other two points in between.
The after-market bars do work. But just putting an bar on the back, and nothing on the front will make under-steer much worse, which our cars already have a bit of. So Micheal, if you disconnect the front, and use only a rear, it will make the problem worse (unless you like under-steer).
You want a strong bar on the front to reduce under-steer. But that can lead to over-steer. So you put a bar on the back to fine tune your cars under/over-steer.
