The idea just occured to me, so I haven't looked into it much. It might not be possible at all.
Can we swap an Impalla or Monte Carlo (1997-2003) spindle onto our cars? The Grand Prix spindle is slightly different, so I'm not interested in it.
I know the N-body spindle will swap, but I wasn't sure how W-body's steeting connects, if the ball joint can be made to line-up, if the strut bolt spacing is the same/similar.
Has anybody looked into this before?
I'm working up the money for the last items on my list for a full suspension swap. Going AGX front, GR2 back, N-Body front Spindles, N-Body IRS rear, 17" rims, and performance tires, suspension tech springs.
The Impala and Monte Carlo have 11.9" front disk brakes. The Grand Prix & Buick Regal (w-body) have 10.9" brakes. The N-body, iirc, has 10" rotors up front. As long as I'm swapping stuff out, might as well go bigger; right! J-Body rotors are about 9" iirc.
All N & W -bodies share the same size rear disks, so N-Body IRS should be the easiest and fastest way to go out back.
I'm going to check this all out unless someone can give me a definitive answer before tomorrow. I've got school all day today.
OO! OO! OO! Pick me! Pick me!
I did some research into this also. I hung out on the Boneville club forums for a while. It turns out that a W body spindle will bolt up to the H body strut, which in turn will bolt up to a J body strut (2nd gen at least). It is also possible to directly swap a 2 piston F body caliper (02+) onto the W body spindle (the aluminum 02+ one) by simply re-drilling the slide bolt holes and re-tapping them (I forget what the size is). This would result in 12" rotors with 2 piston calipers. Very cool using all factory parts.
I'm not sure if the 2nd gen spindle is wider than the 3rd gen, but I can measure it up for you and find out. I'm going to guess its close if not the same. It would only be a simple milling problem if it is wider.
Holy Crap !! /\ /\ /\ That would freeking awesome if it actualy works !!!
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Yeah I knew the F-Body (Camaro & Firebird) caliper bolts up to the W-Body. And the rotors are identical (same aftermarket part number, GM wouldn't admit of course).
11.9" Rotors and 2 Piston Calipers would be nice.
And what about bolt pattern, wheel clearances and suspension geometry and travel? Do you take that in account?
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I'm using H body spindles on my car, and there are quite a few other guys who have done it. Everything lines up the way it should. The track is maybe 3/8" wider, but no biggie. Its alignable to factory specs, so no problem there either. The measurement from top strut bolt hole to the bottom of the spindle is a tiny big longer (maybe 3/16") on the big spindle, but it isn't a huge problem. Two issues- ball joint and bolt pattern.
Ball joint- I simply welded a new plate to the end of my control arms to accept the H body ball joint. The center of it is where the J ball joint was. I know some guys who got the H body ball joint to work with alot of filing and drilling, but thats kind of hacking it IMO. I never did any measurements on a 3rd gen control arm, so it may be easier to do. Some may ask why you can't just use the J ball joint. Its way too small for the big spindle. It might work with a sleeve, but thats hacking it too.
Bolt pattern- I did alot of research into finding a bearing that would bolt on and retain the 5x100 (Celebritys used the bigger bearing and were available with 5x100 and 5x115, but the JA2 and JA8 brakes used a different spindle). There is one that comes close enough to make work (Chrysler Cirrus), but the spline count is off, and I never looked into using the outer CV off the car on the V6 axles. Right now, I've got some plates being machined to adapt the J bearing to the H body spindle. Not the best plan I've ever come up with, but it will work.
I'm just switching to 5x115. I've already got rims off an 05 Grand Prix.
The ball joint is a small issue, but as James said, get the w-body ball joint, and force it to work on our control arm. It's not the biggest issue of this swap.
Besides, I'm already having to modify the knuckle to fit the different caliper.
Overall it's going to be a lot of little hacks to get it all working just right. But it should be worth it in the end. I'll let you guys know what I come up with tomorrow.
Swap the N-body front spindles on...... also swap to N-body lower ball joint. Then use the W-body (impalla) calipers and sliders w/ the 11.9" rotors. The bolt holes on the spindle need to be opened up to accept the larger W-body caliper bolts. The W-body spindles I've seen where all cast Iron, not aluminum like the N-bodies........ (looked at Impala, Grand Prix, and Monte)
or swap to the F-body calipers...... if they fit........ your choice (I already have the W-body calipers, so thats what will go on for now) I'll have to look when I go to the yard again.
I forgot to look at the N-body ball joint, to make sure it will work...... but if not, I've heard the Toranado (sp?) ball joint will work.
SPD RCR Z -
'02 Z24 420whp
SLO GOAT -
'04 GTO 305whp
W41 BOI -
'78 Buick Opel Isuzu W41 Swap
I got tied up a work on Wednesday, so I never made it to the yard.
The Impala and Monte Carlo should have 11.9" rotors, and an aluminum spindle 02+ (IIRC). The F-Body calipers are the same size as the W-body, but with 2 pistons, and slightly larger bolts. They can be put on a w-body knuckle, I doubt there's enough material to put them on an N-body knuckle.
The 3 bolt holes for N-body ball joints are almost identical to our j-body. The larger W-body or H-body ball joints are larger, and they don't get squeezed between the control arm. They sit on top and are simply bolted on. You should be able to fabricate a new end for the j-body control arm to make it accept the w/h-body ball joint, but it will definitely take some fabrication.
Eliot: Almost all GM Car suspension from the late 80s through the early 00s are extremely similar. Caster, Camber, and Toe; Height, "Geometry" as you said, it's all close enough to fudge it usually.
that might have been my problem...... the w-bodies I was looking at where between 99-02........
My N-body spindles have quite a bit of meat around the bolt holes, so I'm sure I could drill them out a bit larger, if the F-body indeed uses larger bolts then the W-body........
What are you going to do for a master cylinder? think the stocker will work? or ????
SPD RCR Z -
'02 Z24 420whp
SLO GOAT -
'04 GTO 305whp
W41 BOI -
'78 Buick Opel Isuzu W41 Swap
Yeah the stock MC will work just fine. I'm not doing auto-x yet or anything. If I was to start doing auto-x (regularly that is) I might switch to the H-body brake system (MC ABS TC Brake-Computer); but for now the j-body MC and system I have will work without problems.
Sorry I haven't posted in the last few days. Wed I had to work, Thurs I had school all day, and today I had surgery to remove my wisdom teeth. So it may be a few days before I get back to this. All that and I ordered Potenza RE750 tires, so I'm working on getting those put on too sometime this coming week. Busy busy..
Just wanted to keep everyone updated.
I got the N-body spindles (99-05), and the F-body 2 piston caliper (98-01). They seem to line up perfectly. Unfortunately the yard I got the calipers from didn't include the bolts, and they just toss them in a pile with about a million other bolts... So I'll have to order new ones, no biggie, but I can't bolt it all together yet. So I don't know if the knuckle has to be drilled out. I don't think it will be just eye-balling it.
Here are some pics:
Linky
Yes I know they're a mess. I just got them today. Nothing plenty of industrial strength acidic cleaner wont clean up.
Sweet........listening.........awaiting more updates.......Great Job CTS and James
ive got n-body fronts sitting in the shed if the camaro 2 pistons fit ill be going with those over the impala stuff
i was told by the guys at gm did the american tuner sunfire , that the N-body ball joints bolted right in to our a-arms
Yeah. N-Body ball joints will bolt right up (with a touch of drilling, because you have to use nuts & bolts, not the stock rivets). 2nd Gen N-bodies use identical A-arms as our 3rd gens (2nd gen too I think, James?)
my local yard (that we always go to) didnt have any of the 2 piston calipers........ all the newer F-bods where missing the whole front cradle. I did find a Buick Regal 2 piston caliper, but the bolt pattern was WAY off.
Polo wrote:Sweet........listening.........awaiting more updates.......Great Job CTS and James
I'd like to think I helped out some with this........
lol
SPD RCR Z -
'02 Z24 420whp
SLO GOAT -
'04 GTO 305whp
W41 BOI -
'78 Buick Opel Isuzu W41 Swap
Oh yeah, you too speedracerz, my bad.
C.T.S wrote:Yeah. N-Body ball joints will bolt right up (with a touch of drilling, because you have to use nuts & bolts, not the stock rivets). 2nd Gen N-bodies use identical A-arms as our 3rd gens (2nd gen too I think, James?)
Nope. Several guys have tried to swap 3rd gen arms onto their cars, but to no avail. The actual ball joint, however, is the same, so this will work for us.
Looking at the picture of the back of the spindle, it looks like the bearing is bolted on from the back?
I see bolt heads (or what looks like bolt heads). Can you do me a huge favor and measure the distance between two of the bearing to spindle bolts? If its closer to the Cav pattern than the H body, I may swap the whole front end again
The bearing is bolted on from the back. The bolt spacing seems to be an even 3-15/16"
Thats a weird GM setup. I can't recall ever seeing it that way before. Thanks for the measurement.
