posted in maintenance with now much luck anyway
Unbolt control arms..
Main part im confused as to where all the bolts are.. apx how many
and how i go about getting the steering rack off the subframe? seems like the most complicated? Id like some insight before i tackle it thanx
Control arms.. there's a 15mm bolt in the front of the subframe (little pocket). You need to remove the lower engine mount on the passenger side to get to it, and the metal bar that goes forward to the rad support on the driver's side. Then you can get those bolts out. Then there's the other 15mm bolt on the back part of the subframe for the control arm as well. Take the control arms out. Then there's an 11mm bolt that holds the steering arm to the steering rack (inside the rubber boot). Take that out (don't move the steering wheel now). Then there's 6 large bolts, 18mm I think that hold the subframe to the car. Four on the bottom, two above the axles on the frame rails (one each side). Ta da...
hm doesnt seem too bad, i was mainly concerned with the steering, why do u say not to move the wheel? Ive had the control arms out, the bar that goes across and lower mount off before so hopefully its not too difficult
If you turn the steering wheel and it isnt returned to center , according to the airbag clockspring, you will break the clock spring when you turn the steering wheel all the way to one side or the other.
The only thing that I do differently is that I dont take the steering shaft off. I remove the two 18mm steering rack mounting bolts, pry the rack up it out of its place , then bungee cord it up so the rack is out of the way and the steering shaft doesnt come apart. This also keeps from removing the PS lines from the rack, they suck if you dont have an 18mm crows foot.
I dont take the a-arms off till I get the frame out. I take it apart at the lower ball joints. I swap over the a-arms to the new subframe, slide it under the car, put the ball joint nuts on one side at a time, then place a board on a floor jack across the subframe side to side, then jack it up into place. start all of the bolts first, snug them up, check that it is 24 inches from the center of the lower ball joint to the front edge of the hole on the frame rail/ floor of that same side. if it is not the same from side to side then loosen the bolts up and shift it around a little to even it out. 24" is the Ideal but seldom are they perfect, just make sure they are the same from side to side.
It might not seem like much but this is an alignment item, If out can cause abnormal tire wear or dog tracking(drives down the road sideways) steering wheel will be off center.
Before you put the subframe back in, spread the steering rack bracket on the passenger side a little so the rubber rack bushing mount slides right in or else you will fight it in and tear the bushing.
01 cav w/01 3400 gam gt 4t45e
uh oh it seems alot more difficult then i once seen i went out there n got it on jack stands n stuff didnt look bad im still confused about the damn steering part tho and bundge cording @!#$ in i really dont wanna brake anything
im a little confused on this "24''" thing too is this cavalier specific or wut?
i went under there with a tape measure i dont know wut the hell u mean by the hole on the frame and the 24''
i also dont quite understand as far as bundgying it to anywhere?
joe malechowski wrote:If you turn the steering wheel and it isnt returned to center , according to the airbag clockspring, you will break the clock spring when you turn the steering wheel all the way to one side or the other.
The only thing that I do differently is that I dont take the steering shaft off. I remove the two 18mm steering rack mounting bolts, pry the rack up it out of its place , then bungee cord it up so the rack is out of the way and the steering shaft doesnt come apart. This also keeps from removing the PS lines from the rack, they suck if you dont have an 18mm crows foot.
I dont take the a-arms off till I get the frame out. I take it apart at the lower ball joints. I swap over the a-arms to the new subframe, slide it under the car, put the ball joint nuts on one side at a time, then place a board on a floor jack across the subframe side to side, then jack it up into place. start all of the bolts first, snug them up, check that it is 24 inches from the center of the lower ball joint to the front edge of the hole on the frame rail/ floor of that same side. if it is not the same from side to side then loosen the bolts up and shift it around a little to even it out. 24" is the Ideal but seldom are they perfect, just make sure they are the same from side to side.
It might not seem like much but this is an alignment item, If out can cause abnormal tire wear or dog tracking(drives down the road sideways) steering wheel will be off center.
Before you put the subframe back in, spread the steering rack bracket on the passenger side a little so the rubber rack bushing mount slides right in or else you will fight it in and tear the bushing.
Sounds about right to me. This is actually how I get my engine in the car when my engine bay is clean and freshly painted. Bolting the engine to the subframe and then putting the whole thing on jack stands under the car. From there all I have to do is lower the car down over the engine and bolt up the subframe. Makes it a lot easier but you do need a lift. Also like was posted above pry the steering rack brackets apart before you start to bold things back in, it is very frustrating when you don't do that first.
Quoth the Raven 'Nevermore
raven@accesswave.ca
Raven Autosports
55 McQuade Lake Cres,
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
(902) 850-3330
10.82@132
James, I realized with the 3800....... the passenger side bolt goes in fine (steering rack bolt), but the driver side does not because if I remember correctly, the oil pan was in the way!!! Shorter bolts maybe? All I remember is that the one stock bolt would not go in.
well i got it off.. i dont see that mine is bent really? i dont know though ill change it out anyways who knows.. the 24'' rule or w/e makes no sense because alot of the holes are not slotted (if any) so the measuring thing is not correct i dont think.. It was kind of a pin to pry the rack out of the frame but it all managed to come out after a lil bit of tugging. Ill slap it on tomorrow and wish for the best
Isaak wrote:James, I realized with the 3800....... the passenger side bolt goes in fine (steering rack bolt), but the driver side does not because if I remember correctly, the oil pan was in the way!!! Shorter bolts maybe? All I remember is that the one stock bolt would not go in.
the passenger one quite easy for me.. it popped right out.. but the driver had to brr pryed out not sure if there the same or not.. oil pan was close but not really in the way for me.. wait im thinking u mean the transmission (autos)
that pan came a little close but it was pretty easy to take out i dont know how easy to put it back in tho lol
Ill Post a picture of the holes tonight.
Maybe better, I will put a J-bod frame dimention sheet on here to help every one out. 95 up are the same dim.
If you would of measured it you would have known if you needed to change it or not. They bend where the back of the lower a- arm bolts on, it usually widens the slot. the A-arma usually bend up or down on the backside depending on if you have a sway bar.
Many times the rear subframe bolt hole will slide in the frame since it is a slotted hole with a clip in it. If this happens the floor where the inside rear mount will be distorted. Cross your fingers and hope you can get the new one in. Often If the subframe gets bent, the new one wont go in. I usually straighten out the old one on the frame machine before changing it. I didnt know you were changing a bent one out or I would of told you to do some more measurements first. I hope It works out for you.
01 cav w/01 3400 gam gt 4t45e
i duno for the most part it lines up this car is driving me @!#$in nuts.. im pretty sure the wheel will be toed out ive been lazy i havent put the new frame on completley the steering rack on the pass. side the bolt wont grip the damn nut i mite have bent it out too far who knows other one went in like butter. all the bolts pretty much lined up that i can see..
my old subframe had gotten a tear in it from the old control arm swinging out but i dont think my actual subframe was bent too much beyond repair.. im hopeing to god that my knuckle is bent.. ive looked at it over and over i dont see where it could be
ive already replaced axle, tie rod, lower control arm and strut the damn wheel sits out way too much heres a pic.. of how it looked before the subframe by the angle i dont see it being the subframe..
pass. side:
u got any screen names man? maybe u can help me by aim or something so we dont have to prolong this damn thread lol
Sorry about that , Its been a while since I posted pictures on here, cant seem to remember how I did it.
Any way the first 3 links work fine.
If you got any more Q's let me know.
01 cav w/01 3400 gam gt 4t45e
I forgot to tell you that when measuring, if its to a hole measure to the closest edge (edge towards the other measurement) And if its a bolt you use the center of the bolt or hole.
The under hood measurements use the headlight hole and rear hinge bolt hole.
Some measurments can be tricky with a ruler because of opsticles in the way. Make sure that you keep the ruler as straight as possible....... When I do them I use a tram guage, Its a straight bar with adjustable pins on each end. You could probably make one If you spent a little time.
Oh , you said that you changed the strut, If you have that out of adjustment it will cause that problem, the two big bolt holes are slotted. plus if the front is out of square wont help that look either.
Good luck.
01 cav w/01 3400 gam gt 4t45e
Isaak wrote:James, I realized with the 3800....... the passenger side bolt goes in fine (steering rack bolt), but the driver side does not because if I remember correctly, the oil pan was in the way!!! Shorter bolts maybe? All I remember is that the one stock bolt would not go in.
Yeah if you play with it it will come out, and it's not the oil pan that gets in the way its the tranny. We moved my engine forward abour 2 inches this year so I don't have that problem any more.
Quoth the Raven 'Nevermore
raven@accesswave.ca
Raven Autosports
55 McQuade Lake Cres,
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
(902) 850-3330
10.82@132
well i finsihed the damn subframe.. looks exactly the same i got a knuckle today and ANOTHER new strut.. sooo if this doesnt solve it nothing will i guess hell if i know.. i know the pass. frame rail is bent hooked up to the crush guard i can clearly see it.. and no the body panels dont line up.. but this has happen alot i see where my body panels dont line up body shop usually charges me 150 to straighten frame and fix my body parts.. ive never had a problem like this where the actual wheel is out. i suppose with the new knuckle and strut if its still out the frame rail will need to be pushed out over the wheel. the weird this before it was all out of camber if it would Stick out of the wheel straight id assume it was the frame rail but it had such camber it led me to believe something else was bent.. oh well this is becoming a nightmare ill let u guys know the results
Did you see the 3 links to the car dimentions that I left you .
If you measure the wheel location and its ok then you just ned the front pulled around. sounds like you have a buckle in the frame rails right after the passenger upper motor mount. on both sides.
150 is cheap, we usually charge that just to setup and measure to determine what needs done. Then 45 / hr for each additional hour.
You can safe some cash by removing the front cover,and headlights. depending on whether it bent the rail behind the rad support, the rad and condensor may need to come out also. Removing this stuff will save you the extra time(money) the frame guy has to spend removing them.
I would definetly take it somewhere to have the frame straightened before you change anything else. A good frame guy can tell you just by looking at the parts what needs changed. Takes the guess work out for you.
01 cav w/01 3400 gam gt 4t45e
well went to throw the damn knuckle on and the junkayrd gave me the driver one so im waiting till tomorow for a new one in the mail.. i should of double checked.. yes i checked out those papers.. im nt sure what my frame guy does.. 150 is cheap but after i get my cars back everything lines up.. and no holes are slotted or anything so he must do something with the frame i dont know? but if the frame was bent.. its a unibody. the new subframe bolted right up with ease and how does anything effect how the wheel sits as far as the frame?
If the new one bolted right up with no prying then It wasnt bent. If the wheel front to back location is correct the frame is fine from the subframe bolt locations back. What will happen is the front frame/uni body will have side sway to one side or the other (usually causing a buckle in the frame rails depending on how bad) Good indications of this will be the hood gap being screwed up,fender /door gap being very large on one side, and wheel sticking out past the fender one one side and tucked under on the other.
You can check this easily with the under hood dimentions that I gave you. measure from the rear hinge bolt hole center to the opposite side outer headlight mounting hole. Then measure the opposite direction. These MUST be the same. Also measure the strut towers in the same manor. If that strut tower is out from the side sway your going to get what you have. You should look for buckles in the structure that arent symmetrical from one side of the car to the other. The firewall will buckle and seams pulled apart where the strut towers are welded on.
Do you know how and where the car was hit? It sounds like it was hit in the bumper on the drivers side, sideways, causing the side sway. If this is correct and the pass wheel or tire wasnt damaged then there werent any bent parts on that side. It usually takes a good hard hit to bend the suspension parts, with a bent wheel or tire popped off the bead of the wheel being the result. The lower a-arm is the weakest link there, if its good, there is no sense changing anything else on that side.
If you can post some more pictures for me I can give you a lot better idea of what you need to do.
Strut towers, frame rail bends, hood gaps, fender / door gaps, driver and pass wheel (from the side), and driver and pass wheel (from the front). The pass wheel from front is already on here.
01 cav w/01 3400 gam gt 4t45e
car was hit on pass. corner. as u can see.. broke axle-tie rod end-control arm , i just dont understand how frame could cause the wheel to do this.. especially if the subframe bolted right up, that would control left and right but other then that its strut and axle are the only other things connected to the wheel
You really need to get the front end pulled back around, its over inches.
Look at the picture above, see the hole at the top in the upper rail. That is buckled there, a shure sign that the strut tower is out.
You say that you dont understand how the front ent being bent around can cause this. well the first thing is that there isnt much strength in a side hit like that. Also the engine and front end just kind of hovers there since the subframe doesnt attach to the rad support making it easily shifted over.
Ill bet that your pass side fender gap is huge since the hood overlaps the fender like that. And the driver side fender is either caved in or you cant open the door.
I used to buy 2-3 wrecked cavs and fires a year, fix them and re sell them to make some extra cash. I've probably done 10-15 of them just for my self over the years. Not counting the ones that I fixed for Insurance claims and local dealerships. So Im more than Qualified to give you advice.
What Im trying to say is your wasting time and money changing parts that are probably still good.. Take it to have it pulled.
01 cav w/01 3400 gam gt 4t45e
i can open both doors no prob.
i put knuckle on.. its about 98% normal.. im betting once i get the frame pulled it will be 100%..
u can SLIGHTLY see where the wheel sticks out of the pass side fender well about 1/2'' at the most and the driver is about 1/2'' in im sure once i pull the frame it will be normal.. also the wheel is perfectly up and down now..
i went crazy i went to sdtart it after lowering it in my garage it wouldnt start damn thing i guessi was bangin around too much and losened one of the computer harness' anyway im good to go for now.. i think subframe as kind of a waste imma try to get the frame pulled sometime this week i apperciate ur help!
i also put 2 new front struts again.. i need to buy new bearings though now.. i dont think strut tower is bent at all and theres no visable crinkle in the firewall or anywhere for that matter except where the crushguard attached to the front rail it has slid a little bit once again they should be able to pull that somewhat easy
