You think so? This engine only has about 15K miles on it.
Ive hear that noise before and it was the timing chain. Did you reset the tensioner when you reinstalled it? That was my problem. Also you might look into changing the chain itself, it could be worn and stretched.
I left the chain that was in there from the new engine. Well
it wasn't totally new but it only had 8K miles on it when I put it in.
Can a chain stretch in only 15K miles? I have removed the cover
at least 3 times this past week and a half and every time I recheck
the tensioner including buying a new one for good measure. The
chain came to mind as the guides still look new. The chain is the
only thing I don't know how to determine if it's worn. When it's all
together it seems tight against the guides and tensioner. If I push
on the chain on the right side between the right guide and crankshaft
it barely moves in maybe 1/4" if I push hard enough. I know it isn't
low oil pressure not pushing the tensioner out as the pressure is
where it's supposed to be.
Is it possible to pull the timing cover off and start it for a few secs to see if it's the chain?? I know it will leak oil be it might be worth a shot.
Hmmm...is it possible? Wouldn't it spill out or is it not puddled up inside there?
Would it throw oil all over if it is possible? Can I drain all the oil and then do that?
That's seems the best idea I've heard so far.
Jay wrote:Hmmm...is it possible? Wouldn't it spill out or is it not puddled up inside there?
Would it throw oil all over if it is possible? Can I drain all the oil and then do that?
That's seems the best idea I've heard so far.
stop now. put the tools down. step away from the car, and take it to someone who knows what they're doing.
JBO Stickers! Get yours today!
Have you made sure that the tensioner is fully extended, there is a middle position that it can stop in and make you think that it is good. When I rebuilt my motor last year that was the main advice my cousin gave me that has worked at chevy dealerships for close to 20 years as a mechanic. It took about 2 times of setting the tensioner to get it all the way out. Also have you turned the motor by hand with the cover off to see if it is getting slack in the chain while spinning.
Quote:
"stop now. put the tools down. step away from the car, and take it to someone who knows what they're doing."
I am the one who put the engine in 8K miles ago in my garage by myself. I just pulled it out and reinstalled it the way
it came out. I did not need a repair manual but only the advice from the parts store fellas on what seals and parts to
change while I'm changing the engine. Nobody has really touched the car since I bought it new other than a trip to the
dealer to find a loose screw on my ignition that was causing a misfire that I had overlooked. Unless it involves a machine
shop or a very expensive specialized tool I don't possess, I think I can give a go at it.
If it is on or inside the car I will learn to fix it with or without help. Now if starting the car for a few seconds while it has
almost or all the oil drained out while kill it then that's what I want to know. I ran my Dodge van that I use for work with
almost only a quart and a half to a quart of oil before checking on it as routine maintenance to realize it had been slowly
leaking. No damage done. How long had it been running like that I don't know but, the point is it was almost empty.
So now when Blown Phoenix was saying if it was possible to remove the cover and I answered back with "I don't know is
it possible," that meant whether it be on here or by a mechanic I would have found out before I performed that operation.
The point is I am here for answers on what to do to rectify this problem and not hear that I should walk away as I am not
a trained mechanic. I just got back from the dealer and they told me they couldn't really give me any ideas as to what the
probem is. Instead they would be charging the top $, I believe $100 an hour at least, to tear inside the engine and see if
they can figure it out. They did say it sounded like a lifter at first then another mechanic said it sounded like it was coming
from the bottom. The chain shoe that was hitting the inside of the timing cover is low also.
Picture of damage to inside timing cover:
http://img242.imageshack.us/my.php?image=covergl7.jpg
Which is why I thought if it could be ran for a few seconds with it off the chain or shoe wouldn't be slapping the cover and
I would find my noise.
I can replace the engine for $600-$800 for a used low milage engine from a yard, I found a few. To have the dealer start
their go at it would easily bring me past that figure as just to remove the timing cover supposedly would take them 4 hours
I was told. I just did it 3 times this past couple weeks in about 2-3 in my garage with minimal tools.
I don't mean to come off sounding like a jerk for this. It's just that I want to fix this as soon as possible with out having to
empty my wallet in some mechanics hand when he knows just by hearing it or by experience what it is and will say "I don't
know, I'll have to open it up." So does anybody have any positive input that can help me with this noise?
Thanks, in advance, for any "advice" to help me.
Donr run it with no oil.. thers a start... did you try to pull the timing cover and turn the motor over by hand and check the chain?
That's whats next I guess. Then 2000redz24 mentioned in a PM, pulling the oil pan and looking
at the bearings. The chain was all together inside the timing and it had little slack at all. If I pushed
on it it barely moved. Is that enough or would turning it by hand show more? It seemed pretty tight
and I know it can't be the tensioner or guides. Only thing left is the chain. Could it possibly stretch
in only 15K miles?
Jay before you take it some where,
First thing comes to mind is the flywheel bolts are coming loose. You had mentioned that it doesnt make the noise all the time and also quits over 1500 rpm. My guess is when there is a load on the flywheel bolts they are not banging around in the holes, you let off the gas then they start to get sloppy, making the tapping noise. If this were also true it wouldnt make the noise while under a load such as leaving a stop sign or going up a hill.
Now I know that you are thinking that its coming from the timing chain area, It may appear to be, but it cant hurt to take a look at the flwheel bolts. you didnt state whether its a stick or auto, Im just pointing you in the direction. I have had them come loose on me after an engine install, I always lock tight and torque them, especially the ones on the crank.
good luck.
01 cav w/01 3400 gam gt 4t45e
also check the crank pulley and make sure it is running true and not wobbling. if you pulled it improperly you could of damaged it.
Thanks guys. You gave me some more to look at.
any luck finding the problem
I've never pulled the timing cover off of mine so i have no clue if the timing cover pressed agian or held anything. Some motors you can run with out the timing cover mainly older v8's for few secs to see what is going on.
So basically i was just say start if for few secs to see if the chain was slapping around. As for your pic you posted. Did you take it off after your noise or was that before? If that is now you can tell the chain is rubbing it in which that is problably your noise. It does how ever sound like the timing chain.
It might help if you said what side the noise was louder on(driverside or passenger). Because if it is on the passenger side i don't see the flywheel being loose causing it but anything is possible. Also as for bearings that doesn't sound like rod or crank bearings at all.
o i seen what you said. NO don't drain the oil. That would be the worst thing to do. If you have ever seen somone adjust rockers is about how it would be. I'm not sure how much oil or pressure the oil has coming out in the cover but it would probably throw some and leak on the ground a bit. You just wouldn't want to run it for say more 3 or 4 mins incase the oil were to get low.
I'm sorry to keep posting but we had a grand am with a 2.4 come in the shop awhile back with a similar tick but it was loud. And here the belt was stretched and on top of that the tensior broke and was causing the noise. The tensioner has a spring in it and it can break off inside. To the point the pieces that broke of won't let the tensioner move to tighten up. Moreless creating a stop in side of it cast part and the arm would bang back and forth.
This is a common problem if you ever have a belt break and make the tensioner hit the crank pulley quick or if you take the belt off and let it fly back. Also try the hose trick. Take a old hose and put one end up to you ear and then take the other and put it on the cam tower then the cover and such. It will make the noise echo and you can find were its the loudest that way.
I havent tried anything new that was mentioned yet as it has been a little too cold to work on it
the last couple days even in the garage where I keep it. It's probably only 50-60 in there
right now but being so used to 80-90 degrees in Florida theres no way I can work in that
unless I start a campfire in there. I believe it will warm up shortly(70-80) and I'll give it a go.
Thanks again for all the input everybody.
ever have any luck figuring out your problem
Tore it all apart again and replaced two more lifters on exhaust side, noise still there.
I had a new timing set on hand to make sure the chain in there wasn't stretched.
It wasn't and the gears in there looked as good as the new set also. Double
checked the guides and they are fine.
On a good note I can do this in about half the time I started doing it in beginning so
it isn't so bad doing it over and over. I am a timing chain cover expert now
A old timer engine builder said it sounded like it was from the bottom end.
Everything points to it not being a bearing as it goes away when giving it
throttle and it doesn't get louder. I am going to pull the oil pan and check
if anything seems loose.
What I need is a honest experienced mechanic to listen to it and tell me what it is.
This old guy I brought it too definitely knew his trade but he said he was too busy too
even take on more work. Besides he said it's bottom end and expensive then
told me of another older mechanic down the street. Probably friends getting each
other more work.
I'm willing to pay somebody to tell me what it is but it seems they only want to get paid to
start digging inside the engine. Nobody seems interested in the idea of telling me what it is
so I can fix it myself.
Anybody know any honest mechanics in Tampa/Clearwater/St.petersburg area in Florida
that know the LD9 well?
I thought you said that it wasnt making the noise when you rev it up. (Sorry I dont have sound om my pc for the video)
Im assuming that you did check the flywheel bolts? If you put a socket and extension on the crank pulley you can check this easily. Use a breaker bar or ratchet and slowly tun the engine, one way then the other, quickly changing directions. Your listening for a clunk when changing directions. It may be easier for you to turn with the spark plugs out.
In the past for me there are 2 things that caused a bottlom end noise in the LD9. The flywheel thing was on a 2200, but could easily happen to any one.
First thing is a piston skirt broke on one of the cylinders, Enough was borken off to cause the piston to slightly cock in the cylinder on each stroke. Since it was only the skirt the compression test was all good. I ended up just replacing the engine, didnt know what exactly was wrong till I pulled the pan and found a piece of the piston skirt laying the bottom of the pan.
Another thing that I ran into was on the oil pump there is some sort of counter balance shafts , a weird ass design. This was on the earlier ones so I dont know if they changed it or not. The balance shaft bearings would wear out and make a hell of a racket. It would sound like a bucket of bolts all the time! not a cheap fix either.
If I were you Id pull the oil pan. the biggest pain of that job is getting the lower coolant tube off. If you have ever changed the thermostat, you know what Im talking about. Other than that it should be pretty simple.
Your going to have a hard time getting free advice when the person your asking has the potential of making a buck, especially if they are experienced. I dont do it at my shop and dont expect anyone else to do it either. Gotta pay the bills man.
Plus if I tell you what is wrong for free, and you come back after spending several hours and a chunk of cash. Most people have the balls to come back to me and bitch that it wasnt the problem. This only gets worse if the customer pays to diagnose it. I dont even go there.
Diagnostics is where mechanics make their money, if they diagnose it wrong themselves and the car never leaves, no one is pissed. Mechanic just shrugs it off as experience and moves on to the next possibility. Most mechanics I believe mis diagnose each car at least once, and 3-4 times if the problem is intermittent. 5-8 times for non mechanics! Common problems are often one shot sure thing , but they are charging for experience, so dont expect to get a deal here cause it took 2 min to diagnose. Your uncommon problem is something that has to be picked apart, and is normally charged for the amount of time it takes to track down the noise. Could be hours and a hefty bill. Im not saying that cause im a mechanic, but because its how it is. Time is money in the buisness. We hope for the common problem jobs, then you show up for just the diagnostic, and to be 100% correct.
Sorrry I dont mean to sound pissy, Its just that there is alot of people that think they are mechanics, spend loads of cash on wrong parts, then bring it to me and whine about a fifty dollar repair bill. When I know that they spent at least $200 in parts that they didnt need.
The reality is every case is different in some way, so there is no 100% answer 100% of the time , 50% of the time at best.
So if you dont have the cash to have a mechanic look at it, and phisically point the broken or worn part out to you , then your going to have to start pulling parts off, starting with the oil pan.
01 cav w/01 3400 gam gt 4t45e
Quote:
Sorrry I dont mean to sound pissy, Its just that there is alot of people that think they are mechanics,
spend loads of cash on wrong parts, then bring it to me and whine about a fifty dollar repair bill. When I know
that they spent at least $200 in parts that they didnt need.
No offense taken. I have only spent about $60 for 4 lifters and that's all so I'm not complaining. I only wish I
could pay somebody $50 to tell me what this noise is let alone repair it. Yeah Im at the point where I want to
pay and have somebody tell me what it is. When I brought it to the dealer they said if it's internal it would be
over $100 an hour to find it. They also tell me that it takes 4 hours to get inside the timing cover. At that rate
if they took half a day to find it, I would have been better off to pull it myself and drop another engine in from a
yard. If a mechanic has been under a car for more than a couple years they should be able to diagnose this.
I don't mind paying if they know what they are looking for but, so far all the advice from several mechanics and
"car guys" has been a dead end. The problem may be like you said that even if they know what it is just by
hearing it they are still wanting to charge me more than what a good used engine costs to pay their bills instead.
The good thing is, I have more vehicles so they don't have me by my nuts on this one this time.
I actually forgot to check the flywheel bolts. I'll try thatnext before pulling the oil pan. What do I look for when I
am looking at the oil pump balance shaft you mentioned. Although this noise is not all the time so maybe that's
not it either.
