Alright so my Z24 engine just went on me (something with the connecting rods), and the dealership quoted me approx $3600 to have a used motor with 70 XXX km put in. Seeing as I only bought the car a few months ago for $3000, I do not want to basically buy it again just to have the same engine put in. I figure if I'm going to spend money on this car, I want an upgrade, and a big one. I am only 19 and have always liked cars but have only become somewhat knowledgeable with the last 2 years, so something like an engine swap obviously requires I do ALLOT of research before I decide if this is the route I want to take. Please note that because I am 19 does not mean I am on a tight budget, I actually run a business franhise and have always saved as much as possible to spend on my education, and my car. I'm not attending school this yea, as i am taking on line coarses so I can continue my business during the school year so I basically have a full years tuition sitting in the bank that I don't need, plus my current income.

The reason I say all that is so I don't get responses just saying that I don't realize what this will cost, or I'm a stupid irresponsible kid whos gonna crash going to crash swerving through traffic on the highway etc. I'm serious about this swap, and I'm serious about driving, I have a clean record and I DO NOT street race.

Anyways heres what I have found out so far, please correct any mistake I may and probably will make.

1) Engine.
-series one = waste of money, series two = GREAT, series three = better? (I'm assuming its better, but probably harder to find or requires more work?)
-the ones that came with supercharger stock are built with better internals
2)Transmission
- I want to keep a standard transmission so I believe easiest options are the Isuzu or getrag transmissions.
- I have a 1999 Z24 so apparently the Isuzu will fit right in
- the getrag would require new mounts, but apparently is a better overall transmission

3)Electrical (this part I am very confused with)
-I do not want to rewire my entire car, so I believe I need to keep my current ecu, and have a second one run the engine?
-also I read that any gm ecu of the same year of the engine can run it, if it is reprogrammed?
-I have no idea how to hook up two ecu's in a vehicle, I'm sure I can find info I just haven't spent as much time researching this as the other parts, I imagine it requires splicing a !@#$load of wires

4)Body work
-the engine require a frame to to hold it, that needs to be built to fit my car (dimensions/recommended material for this would be GREAT, or some photos)
-engine mounts will need to be made, possible tranny mounts

I realize what this will cost me depends greatly on where I find the parts, and how much I pay for them. But excluding the prices of the engine, tranny, and ecu, what sort of cost am I looking at for anything else I will need (and what else do I need, I'm sure this isn't everything). Also I read alot about certain parts of the transmission that need to be modified etc, what does that typically cost, and is there no standard transmission that will work without modification?

Ps: right now I am definitely leaning towards doing this swap as I love my car, and selling it now would be a huge loss on my part as Ive just spent a crapload of time fancying up the inside of the car (all new fabric (black and blue), black/blue seats, fabric on doors redone in blue, complete sound system, ps2, headrest monitors etc and was planning on pulling out the dash and painting it, you guess it black an blue. So its not even the money I would lose if I got rid of the car, its just that I have put alot of time into it and would hate to say goodbye to it, and if I improve the engine, that (atleast to me) justifies spending the money.

THANK YOU ANYONE WHO RESPONDS WITH ANY INFO OR ADVICE, sorry if I sound like an idiot that has no idea what Im talking about, still learning

have u concidered a 3400 or 3500 swap. either way u will need a diffrent tranny andt the 3*00 v6s are alot closer to bolt in.electrical u w ill end up splicing the cav and 3800 ecu together most of the 3800 and some of the cav. and either engione if u do a search there are how to's.

Honestly I haven't spent much time looking at the 3400 or 3500 swap. I really got excited about the supercharged 3800 and have been focusing most of my attention to that.

Stupid question because I'll probably find the answer before anybody replies to this, but are the either the 3400 or 3500 available with a supercharger?

Also another stupid question because I'll look at some how-to's after I post this but how much easier is it to swap in these engines, is the only more difficult part with the 3800 building the subframe and custom mounts, because that to me doesn't seem like enough extra work to settle for something less powerful. If someone could list a few pro/cons comparing the 3400/3500/3800 swaps I would greatly appreciate it. Obviously I'm trying to figure that out myself right now but someone who already knows could get me that info alot faster.

Thank you.

if the right parts r sorced the 3x00 motors are more or less dropin. quicklilcav is doin a gp on mounts and u would just have to wire mostly. thereis other stuff but not much that not fairly easly overcomable. im not too farmilliar with 3800 swaps but i know u need to weld in mounts and i think its a lil more involved. o and 3x00 motors didnt come s/c but there fairly easy to turbo and b4 u ask no a 3800 s/c wont bolt to the top of a 3x00.lol

they subframe isnt too bad the mounts are a pain and i made my own downpipe so that wasnt exactly easy and they wiring is what took me the longest i finished mine in 3 weeks and i only worked on it after work and on my days off

For the mounts, did you just take some measurements of what you needed, drew up a design and send it to a shop to make it for you? Do you have dimension of the mounts/subframe? Also is 3 weeks pretty average or should I expect to be without a car for longer than that (how many people were working on your car)? I don't care if my car is not drivable for a while, I just want to know how long I'll be saying "Dad, can I borrow your car? I need to go to work".

I think I am going to go for the 3800, the extra work seems worth it so far, since it seems the hardest part is the wiring which needs to be done regardless of which engine I choose. Plus the more I do, the more I can brag about afterwards.

Also when I look up the 3400 engine theres a ton of different versions of it, I'm assuming only certain ones will fit easily. Which versions of the 3400/3500 are recommended? I know with the 3800 i want the L67.

In my opinion, if you have to ask how much this and that will cost, then the swap is not for you.

I would believe most people that did this swap, was not worried about price.

Its not so much that I hate when people come on here and say they are going to do this swap, but that their reasoning behind it is they got a price quote to replace their engine and they think they can do a 3800 swap close to the same price.

In your case with the $3600, you could make the swap happen. BUT, are you talking about doing this swap yourself with a buddy or something? In that case you could put the factory motor back in after you find a cheap running one. That wouldnt cost you $3600. It would cost you whatever the motor costed you. Thats why at this moment, I find your logic dumb.

Not that I'm trying to start an argument but I find your logic dumb. First you said that if I have to ask what things will cost, than this swap is not for me. Then you say that for $3600 I could make the swap happen. I never said that I wanted to find a cheaper solution than $3600, I just said paying the dealership that much for another 2.4L is stupid. I was actually expecting to spend quite a bit more than that, so thanks for the good news. I said that money was not an issue, just because I want to know how much things should cost does not mean I am on a budget. I only asked about the rough cost of the other swaps because if I could get an 100 extra hp for $1000 or 150 extra hp for $4000, I would probably just take the 100 and spend the other $3000 on something else. Like I said in the post, I already have the money. I plan on spending it. I'm just trying to figure out how much a swap (most likely the L67) will cost so I will know what I will have left to spend on other parts of the car (exhaust system, rims, paintjob are all on my to do list, and possibly some engine mods to the new engine)

If anybody has advice or more info I would appreciate your input. Im still doing research right now but any help to speed up the process would be appreciated.

wont fit



JBO since July 30, 2001

Daniel Simoes wrote:Also is 3 weeks pretty average or should I expect to be without a car for longer than that (how many people were working on your car)? I don't care if my car is not drivable for a while, I just want to know how long I'll be saying "Dad, can I borrow your car? I need to go to work".

It all depends on your skill, how much time you're puting on it per day, and if you have to order parts in the middle of it. Personally, I put about 25 hours of actual work time into my swap, but due to my busy schedule, it took me 2 years to get it done. I wasn't in any kind of a rush, because I have another vehicle, and I didn't have all the parts when I started it.

I know there has been at least one swap done in a weekend, from pulling the 4 banger to driving the 3400. It's very doable if you're prepared, but if you're not, it's anyone's guess as to how long your car will be off the road.

Daniel Simoes wrote:Also when I look up the 3400 engine theres a ton of different versions of it, I'm assuming only certain ones will fit easily. Which versions of the 3400/3500 are recommended?

The only 3400 you don't want is from the Equinox/Torrent. They are easy to spot as the upper intake manifold is taller, black, and has the throttle body on the passenger side instead of the drivers side.

The 3500 you probably don't want to mess with is the VVT version, which is easy to spot by the difference in upper intake manifold. On the VVT version, the passenger side of it has a curved "V" shape in it. The non-VVT has a straight edge on that side.

As for bang for your buck (and time & effort), I would go for a 3400, and put some money into upgrades. You can easily drop that engine in, especially with my mounts, and with some fairly inexpensive upgrades (cam, exhaust, mild P&P on the heads and intake manifold, etc) be puting out some very decent power for a very little increase in weight. There are tons of options with that motor. Some guys swap the flat top pistions and the 3500 heads on them, too, which make a very nice addition (this increases valve size, compression, and intake flow).

you dont just draw somthing up and have somone make it you draw it up and you make it

3800 is not a beginner thing to drop in people read the posts about it and say how hard can it be but at 19 theres things you probably haven't encountered that you need to know fabrication is key

if you don't have that engine sitting in the right spot you oil filer will hit the shaft or even the relocation kit can hit the shaft
if the shaft angle is not right you will break shafts daily
if you don't have the engine level and square it will vibrate like crazy an dcould give a false knock and retard the timing and make your engine run slower then it should.

look into an eco with a saab turbo setup or cobalt supercharger. they have les power but run close to the same times as they can giver off the line where as a 3800 has to stay below 75% throttle until its in 3rd gear or you spin like crazy



JBO since July 30, 2001

Daniel Simoes wrote:Not that I'm trying to start an argument but I find your logic dumb. First you said that if I have to ask what things will cost, than this swap is not for me. Then you say that for $3600 I could make the swap happen. I never said that I wanted to find a cheaper solution than $3600, I just said paying the dealership that much for another 2.4L is stupid.

Your obviously missing my point. Swapping the original motor back can be cheap. You understand that. But you have more than enough money than that so you want to put in something more powerful. In that case with $3600, build the 2.4, and supercharge/turbocharge it. It would be a lot easier, more logical, and can potentially be faster.

Alright I'm gonna give the 3400 another look, from what I'm reading online, if I can get the LQ1 from 94-97 its not that much less powerfull than the 3800 (hp wise atleast). If it really is that much easier maybe I'll do this now because I would like to be able to drive my car again (it still runs, but I don't drive so I dont cause further damage because I may reapair/sell it once it is pulled out).

Maybe I'll put the L67 on my to do list. Hopefully I don't regret not going with the more powerfull motor, but the 3400 still sounds pretty powerful.

I'm going to read through what ever I can find on the 3400 (I know I've stumbled across a few but just glanced over them).

I would still like to do the L67, but I guess it may not be worth the extra work since I'm not trying to build something completely rediculous, just something I'll be happy with. I'm sure I'll eventually wanna run a super/turbo charger, but I guess when I get there I'll decide on boosting the 3400 or swapping it for a 3800.

If anybody wants to argue in favour of the L67, feel free to, I'm not completely set on the 3400. Anyways I'm sure I'll have some questions to post after I read some more info (hopefully I find everything I need, but realistically I probably wont).

Quiklilcav- Unless I find something that makes me change my mind I'll definetly want to get some of those mounts from you, should make things easier.

L67 FTW.. you won't regret it a bit. Boost is horribly addictive... while you could build the 3400 up, you can just swap a smaller pulley on the L67 and go faster!

Hey, you can build up the L67 too.. Gen V blower swap... swap the Series 3 bits that you want, lighter rods, etc... sure the L67 is an old design, it's iron block, iron head... but it's practically bulletproof.

My swap took me 2 years... but I had another car, so it wasn't really an issue. I made sure it all worked, before the first time I turned the key.

Daniel Simoes wrote:Alright I'm gonna give the 3400 another look, from what I'm reading online, if I can get the LQ1 from 94-97 its not that much less powerfull than the 3800 (hp wise atleast). If it really is that much easier maybe I'll do this now because I would like to be able to drive my car again (it still runs, but I don't drive so I dont cause further damage because I may reapair/sell it once it is pulled out).

Personally, I would skip the 94-98 3100, unless you've already got it and want to do the swap right away, then build another engine. The heads and intake don't flow nearly as well, and the power is noticably lower than the 2000+ 3100 or 3400. However, if you do get that engine, for example, out of a 94-98 Grand Am, get the 96-98 and get the ECM/harness with it. It will be a very straightforward swap.

Daniel Simoes wrote:Quiklilcav- Unless I find something that makes me change my mind I'll definetly want to get some of those mounts from you, should make things easier.

Just PM me when you're ready, and keep an eye out for the lower mount GP.

Also, if you're going to do the older 3100 from a GA, I have one of the old style mounts left. Since the new style are less money and most people are doing 3400's, the old style are going away. Hit me up on PM if you're interested.

Quiklilcav wrote:Personally, I would skip the 94-98 3100, unless you've already got it and want to do the swap right away, then build another engine. The heads and intake don't flow nearly as well, and the power is noticably lower than the 2000+ 3100 or 3400. However, if you do get that engine, for example, out of a 94-98 Grand Am, get the 96-98 and get the ECM/harness with it. It will be a very straightforward swap.

I'm not sure if you misread what I wrote or if wikipedia was wrong (which since nybody can edit them, is very possible), but I read that the LQ1 is a third gen 3400 motor. From what I saw on wikipedia its the most powerful 3400 (215 hp @5200 and 225 torque @ 4000). Can anybody confirm that the LQ1 would be the best 3400 to go with?

John Lenko wrote:L67 FTW.. you won't regret it a bit. Boost is horribly addictive... while you could build the 3400 up, you can just swap a smaller pulley on the L67 and go faster!

Hey, you can build up the L67 too.. Gen V blower swap... swap the Series 3 bits that you want, lighter rods, etc... sure the L67 is an old design, it's iron block, iron head... but it's practically bulletproof.

I definetly don't think I'll regret the L67, unless something horrible happened to my car and it was all a waste of money (but that could happen regardess of what I put in the car). The only thing is I'm doubting if I would be able to complete the swap within a reasonable amount of time. The fabrication would probably be the most problematic because I would not be able to do that on my own (I know someone that could weld for me, so he could build me the subframe, not sure about the otherstuff though). NOTa_24 kinda worried me with the whole if the engine is perfectly mounted its not going to work properly anyway and then its got be pulled again etc..


I still would like if someone could compare the two in terms of difficulty, cost, and power (and I don't mean well if I put the 3400 and mod the hell out of it I can get 700hp, because I could do the same with the 3800 and end up with more). Right now I'm still leaning toward the LQ1, since it seems to be much easier and is still quite an improvement from my stock engine.

The LQ1 is the DOHC 3.4L, not the 3400. Have fun getting it in (it will fit, but noone here has any info posted about how to do it). Once it's in, have fun fixing it.

I think your problem seems to be looking at the stock power numbers and deciding by finding the highest one that you're going to use that one, when you really need to do more research into what will work and what won't and wether or not it will be worth it.

Example you mentioned even using the Series III 3800 s/c. The power numbers are higher, and by looking at the number is seems cool and all. But when you get down to it, that engine has a very conservative program that seems to want to limit you from having that hp. In a GTP with the Series III once you get around the traction control, torque management, traction control and whatever else, you're lucky to ever see that 260hp. The ultimate combination is the Series II engine with the Gen V blower on it. Same amount of boost, 250rpm lower and a bit higher efficiency. Go ask the GTP guys about the series III.






i find it amusing that SHOoff has nothing better to do but follow me around & be an unhelpful dick in even cross-forum. - Jon Mick

SHOoff wrote:The LQ1 is the DOHC 3.4L, not the 3400. Have fun getting it in (it will fit, but noone here has any info posted about how to do it). Once it's in, have fun fixing it.

I think your problem seems to be looking at the stock power numbers and deciding by finding the highest one that you're going to use that one, when you really need to do more research into what will work and what won't and wether or not it will be worth it.

Quote:



Well I had asked which 3400 engines were recomended and the answer i got was just to avoid the ones from the equinox/torrent, so I assumed all the others would work. Which engine SHOULD I be looking for to do the 3400 swap?

LA1





i find it amusing that SHOoff has nothing better to do but follow me around & be an unhelpful dick in even cross-forum. - Jon Mick

lol quote fail...

anyway I just read in wikipedia that it clearly says "The LQ1 (also called the Twin Dual Cam or TDC) was a 3.4 L DOHC V6 motor ..."

Which engine am I looking for if I do go with a 3400?

Is this the one I want? -"Pontiac Grand Am 1999-2005: 3.4L 3400 V6: 170 hp (175 for GT), 195 ft·lbf (264 N·m) of torque (205 for GT)" I'm confused because I'm getting different years and what not when I look up the engines on wiki compared to when I look at the actual cars, I am rather sleep deprived right now, maybe I'm not reading correctly.

Yes the 99-05 GrandAm model year 3400. Thats what you want.

The 3400 that comes from some of the minivans is the same thing, but could be found in some earlier years. Also, the 3100 from a 2000 or newer car will produce nearly the same power. But the engine code is LA1





i find it amusing that SHOoff has nothing better to do but follow me around & be an unhelpful dick in even cross-forum. - Jon Mick

Daniel Simoes wrote:

Quiklilcav wrote:Personally, I would skip the 94-98 3100, unless you've already got it and want to do the swap right away, then build another engine. The heads and intake don't flow nearly as well, and the power is noticably lower than the 2000+ 3100 or 3400. However, if you do get that engine, for example, out of a 94-98 Grand Am, get the 96-98 and get the ECM/harness with it. It will be a very straightforward swap.

I'm not sure if you misread what I wrote or if wikipedia was wrong (which since nybody can edit them, is very possible), but I read that the LQ1 is a third gen 3400 motor. From what I saw on wikipedia its the most powerful 3400 (215 hp @5200 and 225 torque @ 4000). Can anybody confirm that the LQ1 would be the best 3400 to go with?

Yep, I misread the engine code. The 3.4DOHC is not a 3400. Only one 3rd gen has had the DOHC engine swapped into it to my knowledge, and it took the same work as a 3800sc.

As SHOoff mentioned any 2000+ 3100, or any 3400, will have close to the same power, and be a fairly straightforward swap. They also have a lot of potential with plenty of options for increasing power fairly easily. The 3400 came out, IIRC, in 1997 in the minivans, and they are the same as the cars. The only slight difference in some of them are the position of the heater hose hookups. The absolute best setup is a Grand Am 3400 (99-05), Alero 3400 (99-04), or Malibu 3100 (99-04). Those engines will be the most bolt-in, including using the heater hoses that go with them.

Alright awesome, you guys have been alot of help I guess I'll start looking around for an engine. Once I get the engine I'll pm you about the mounts, should be soon.

Is it usually more cost effective to get the engine and parts all from scrapyards or just buy a used car so I get everything I need at once?

Also this is probably going to sound like a dumb question, but a scrapyard near me is going to have a take everythig you can carry day next week, which I will most likely be going to. Assuming I can find one of the cars I'll be looking for, what would you think would be the most important things to grab, (to bad I can't carry a car...).