hey everyone im new to the posting aspect of this site but have been reading and studying this website for awhile now, let me start by saying hello to everyone love the site lots of good information and people all around. Anyway im in the process of my build i got a 98 cavalier z24 with a 98' olds silhouette 3400, and a 2.2 5 speed manual. ive got both the motor and tranny in and and have majority of the electrical done so far. car starts and idles for a few seconds then dies as i dont have it fully completed yet! ive done alot of researching and im just wondering about possible mods for the future or some that can be done now, ive got all the basics covered but im wondering about not so basic mods like an ls1 tb and how i would go about installing that. ive got many questions but im mainly wondering what all you other 3400 guys have been able to accomplish with your swaps performance wise? the more input from you guys the better, thanks alot ill be posting some pics soon on my progress
Heads and intakes from the non-VVT 3500 are pretty popular for the 3400's.
i find it amusing that SHOoff has nothing better to do but follow me around & be an unhelpful dick in even cross-forum. - Jon Mick
The LS1 TB is not a simple swap. You could bolt it on with an adapter, but the flow will bottleneck at the entrance to the upper intake manifold. Mr. Goodwrench modded his UIM to accept the LS1 TB, but it was a major mod, not a bolt-on. Personally, I'd do a cam on it. I wouldn't swap the 3500 heads unless you were either going to boost it or put higher compression pistons, because you'll lose compression with the 3500's larger combustion chamber if you don't.
thanks guys for your input! i know all about WOT-Tech and had planned to get majorityy of my parts from them. whats the better combo 3500 lim ported with a 3400 uim ported or just go with both 3500 ported uim and lim? and i thought i read in here that the 98' olds silhouette pcm came without the anti theft system? correct me if im wrong i guess ill find out once its complete, i live in mississauga, canada and i found someone who tunes 60 and 90 degree v6 engines off kijiji. Mr.Quick thanks for the response, i do plan to run a cam not sure if im gonna do a custom grind or go with something from wot-tech but then again not sure i want to go n/a or boost, turbo is definately a big interest of mine so i dont want to spend good money on an n/a cam only to swap it out for a boost cam you no? but if the ls1 tb is a big mod is there any other tb upgrade that doesnt require as much modifications not that its a problem but for now i just want to get the car running but also throw on some mods that are relatively not to time consuming as getting the engine running and fixing all the bugs is my biggest priority, any input on what would be a better build plan turbo or n/a? i was leaning more towards turbo because of the lack of aftermarket parts for these engines, im aiming for 300-400whp to give you guys an idea going above that would be even better haha but for now 300whp is a pretty achievable goal with these engines.
3500 heads do lower compression, but you still gain power. The valves are bigger in the 3500 heads.
As for the intakes... depends on what you do man. With a 3500 UIM, you need an adapter for a TB, as all 3500's have DBW. Using a 3400 UIM at the least you can use the stock 3400 TB on it. Also, a 3400 UIM flows better than a 3500's intake.... stock for stock. Once you get into porting, it's 3500 all the way.
Personally for me, I was also considering trying a set of Pacesetter headers for the Grand Am. I'm not sure if they'll fit right being in the j-body... but I guess I'd find out eventually. As long as they clear the radiator though, I bet they will. Then I also have the M90 sitting here off a Ford T-bird that I would like to get on the engine, but I have no clue how I'm going to accomplish it.
i find it amusing that SHOoff has nothing better to do but follow me around & be an unhelpful dick in even cross-forum. - Jon Mick
FYI, the GA headers fit the J-body. Someone on here has them, and I can't remember who.
And as far as gaining power with the 3500 heads, it pushes the powerband up further, and you lose some low end. This is why I wouldn't do it unless boost or aftermarket pistons to make up the difference.
SHOoff yeah i read that before that the stock 3400 uim flowed better than the 3500 but yeah for sure i would be doing a nice pnp job on everything, i hate stock stuff love to have everything in my engine modded and customized
headers are something i was also very interested in but like you said wasnt sure if the grand am ones would fit a 3rd gen jbody but mr.quick you say they will fit? and is that without having to do any mods? SHOoff an m90 on a 3400??? how would you do that without having the thing sticking out off your hood :p ive seen a 3400 in a guys beretta before but it was a terrible set up he had cut a hole in his hood and had the blower and air filter sticking out of the hood, i dont mean to knock him at all just not something i would want i would love to have a supercharger if it could be done without having to cut my hood up lol, and another question i bought a brand new clutch but its only a stock replacement for the 2.2 i have a feeling its going to wear out very fast, what clutches are you guys running?
Your stock clutch will be OK on a stock 3400. Modded, you need a sturdier clutch.
There was someone on here a few years back that did a 3400 with an M90 sticking out of the hood in a Sunfire, just like the Beretta you mentioned. Looked silly. At one point, I was working on a custom lower intake manifold to put an M90 on, but I scrapped it and I'm instead going to turbo my 3400 when it gets built.
yeah eh it definately does not look very good having that sticking through the hood the days of having a blower sticking out of the hood only looked good back in the day on the old muscle cars, why did you scrap that idea? do you think it is at all possible to have the m90 installed keeping it under the hood? yeah turboing seems to be the most sensible and proper way to boost these engines, what are your plans for turboing? what turbo works best with a 3400? and bottom end and stuff? sorry for so many questions ive just searched this forum enough and theres not really an open discussion where people talk about pure 3400 mods
I scrapped the idea because for the work it was going to take me (I was building a custom lower intake--not a small undertaking on these engines), it wasn't going to get me the gains that a proper turbo would. It is definitely possible to keep an M90 under the hood, but it's all going to be custom fabrication. There isn't enough room to make any kind of adapter and keep it low enough. For turbo size, it's going to depend on what else you do to the motor, what power band you want, etc...I can't answer that question for you. I'm actually still trying to decide if I want two smaller ones or one big one, because I haven't committed to an engine design yet. Right now I've got a 3100, but one of the 3400 engines I have in the garage will be built in full at some point in the future. I'm thinking of throwing a cam and some higher compression pistons in the 3100 for now, though, just to add a little more kick.
Mr. Quick wrote:And as far as gaining power with the 3500 heads, it pushes the powerband up further, and you lose some low end. This is why I wouldn't do it unless boost or aftermarket pistons to make up the difference.
Not such a bad thing. I know the low end on my 3400 tends to hurt more than it helps most of the time. Just turns into smoke.
Graham Bozzelli wrote: SHOoff an m90 on a 3400??? how would you do that without having the thing sticking out off your hood :p ive seen a 3400 in a guys beretta before but it was a terrible set up he had cut a hole in his hood and had the blower and air filter sticking out of the hood, i dont mean to knock him at all just not something i would want i would love to have a supercharger if it could be done without having to cut my hood up lol, and another question i bought a brand new clutch but its only a stock replacement for the 2.2 i have a feeling its going to wear out very fast, what clutches are you guys running?
The particular guy you saw used an M90 off of a L67. Thus they bolted it to the intake manifold (or welded I suppose), and put it on the way they saw it. The T-birds M90 is not set up like the on on the 3800 is. It's a remote setup, so it draws through and runs through an intercooler through charge piping before entering the engine, rather than just feeding straight into the intakes. It's also mounted upside down in comparison to the 3800's. In actuality you can mount those blowers in pretty much any orientation. So, it doesn't have to go on the top of the engine. It can hang on either side, then just hook up the appropriate plumbing.
i find it amusing that SHOoff has nothing better to do but follow me around & be an unhelpful dick in even cross-forum. - Jon Mick
The Eaton is an M62.
I don't have AC on mine, so I've got some open space there. I'll most likely have to remote the oil filter though. I'm sure with some time, and probably too much money, I can get it figured out.
i find it amusing that SHOoff has nothing better to do but follow me around & be an unhelpful dick in even cross-forum. - Jon Mick
very nice yeah ive looked into the m62 centrifugal unit before but it has alot of problems with it bearings etc and is not really to realiable, an m90 on the other hand would be of interest to me. so your saying mr.quick you tried to set up an m90 like the pictures above? with the shaft coming off it? or can you intall it without having to do that so that it looks somewhat like the gtp setup obvs i no its a 90 degree engine and wouldnt mount the same but i mean without having to use that shaft. Also have you guys done the irs swap and rear disc swap? i was wondering if its worth it to switch to the irs and have to change the bolt patterns, i no i want rear discs for sure tho, do you guys have any little mods done like bigger tb, or are there any other swappable parts from other cars?
The centrifugal setup is a Vortec. The Eaton is apparently (as SHOoff said) an M62, not an M90. Looking at it again, I think he's right. When I was designing a setup with the M90, it was going right on top of the engine, like on the 3800s. I was designing a completely new lower intake manifold for it, but it was going to be one hell of a fabrication project and I decided it wasn't worth it.
As for the IRS swap, it's totally worth it. It's not hard at all, and you can do the NFW swap in the front to have the matching bolt pattern, plus 12" brakes (or you can just do the complete N setup and have 11" brakes). I haven't put a larger TB on my 3100, but I'm not really doing much to that. I'm trying to get the car finished up, and then I'm going to build one of the 3400s I have sitting in the garage.
I know it's an M62 because I've seen the kit for sale at different places and I also know, unfortunately, how much they go for these days.
I know making a LIM to accommodate an M90 is a bitch because the V isn't wide enough on the 60 degree.
i find it amusing that SHOoff has nothing better to do but follow me around & be an unhelpful dick in even cross-forum. - Jon Mick
SHOoff wrote:I know making a LIM to accommodate an M90 is a bitch because the V isn't wide enough on the 60 degree.
It definitely wasn't a simple project, but it can be done and still fit under a stock hood. It was going to be slightly taller than a 3800SC manifold, and the injector bosses were going to be tucked under a little bit. Part of me wanted to do it just because, but in the end, I decided that for all the work I would be doing, I could get much more out of a nice turbo setup.
so I was looking at headers for my 3500 swap. I assume the ports are the same as the 3400 or 3100. anywhere to get a reasonable price on a set. all i am seeing is in the 500 range.
I've been looking at a set of Pacesetters. For the painted black ones, you can get them for something like 375.
i find it amusing that SHOoff has nothing better to do but follow me around & be an unhelpful dick in even cross-forum. - Jon Mick
