Question #1
This quote was pulled out of another "Timing" thread over in the performance forum loacted here
Do I need to retard timing?
Joshua Roberts wrote:Retarding the timing is done to reduce chamber temps; so is adding more fuel. EGT and A/F ratio are both factors in this. High temperatures cause predetination, adding fuel is the answer to compensate for the extra air and make you not run lean/hot. Like everyone else said, you can run without pulling timing, but you need to add more fuel if you do this. If you can tune with both a true A/F reading and an EGT reading then you can pretty much go about it anyway you want.
Since retarding the timing is a MUST with us smaller engines (ohv) and a safety measure for the eco and 2.4, would running slightly larger injectors possibly cancel out the threat of retarding the timing? (in other words, require us not to buy a MSD DIS-II) It seems rather logical since most of the posts on the thread say the same thing and how much retarding the timing is a crappy way of not being able to add more fuel and all that jazz.....
I figured 2.4 injectors would help with this situation since they're a direct swap into a 2200 and I have a full list of other injectors that would fit into a 2200 also if a bigger size was needed!
Question #2
This one may not be all that logical because it was word of mouth from reputable people. A shop said by taking the air sensor out of the intake tube and leaving it hanging in the engine bay, it would tell the engine to dump more fuel in (which i also hear from members on here) thus creating a timing retard on the vehicle! Would this be a good idea to try, only when spraying and not daily driving? I guess it all stems back to the first question, will more fuel act as a timing retard in a sense?
Please everyone comment and post up!
P.s- Yes I understand that this is an expensive hobby and doing things right the first time with the right equipment is better than ghetto rigging! Just want some input on the ideas!
N2O + Bolt-ons
= 220Hp/
250Tq
Coming Soon:HpTunersPro, EagleConnectingRods, WiescoPistons, 13sec2200
that IAT bull$hit doesnt do a damn thing. the iat sensor IS seeing colder air temp when the n2o is injected into the intake...unless you're running direct port.
How is the IAT seeing colder air if thenozzle is after it, like most places suggest so it does not wreck it by spraying n2o or fuel on it.
As for option 2, i dont think you want to do that, heck depending where it hangs, it may be hotter air its reading as well. Like I said I know a couple guys have used it on boost to give a little bit more fuel, it doesnt do anything on otherwise stock cars
http://www.aplusperformance.com
http://www.modified-motorsports.com
The rate of combustion is faster with nitrous, so an engine does not need, nor is it desireable to have as much timing.
The point being you are attempting to have peak cylinder pressure (and heat) occur at a point that is optimal for your engine/cam combo.
Running nitrous a bit rich will help stave off detonation, but doesn't address the above.
If your car is tuned optimally, timing wise for N/A running, less timing with nitrous will make more power and be easier on the internals. It's really that simple.
None of this is my expert opinion, just regurgitated facts from reading over the years. Google the subject what is nitrous, nitrous ignition timing, tuning nitrous, etc. The theory and practice of nitrous use hasn't changed in decades. NOS's site has good reference info.
What you "need" to do versus what you "should" do are up to you though
The only opinion I offer when it comes to sizable shots of nitrous....there's no such thing as too much octane. Consider it engine self protection.
jbodyho.... aka the "old guy" as KQ4 call me.
instead of using bigger injectors, which would constantly make you run excessively rich, why not just use a larger fuel jet with your nitrous kit? (assuming its a wet kit.) That would take care of the lean condition, and keep the engine running cooler.
I guess what I'm asking is, since in the other post (link above) it practically says that more fuel into the engine (running rich) does the same thing as retarding the engine, so would that be a way to be safe while, let's say a 2200, runs a 75shot?
rob wrote:instead of using bigger injectors, which would constantly make you run excessively rich, why not just use a larger fuel jet with your nitrous kit? (assuming its a wet kit.) That would take care of the lean condition, and keep the engine running cooler.
That is also a good idea I assume, I'm just trying to figure out if adding more fuel to the equation will do the same as retarding the engine, so I'll feel a tad bit safer running the 75shot as I am doing now with just the mods you see in my profile!
MSD DIS-II to retard timing = $200+
(if more fuel is another way of acting like a timing retard in a sense)
bigger injectors from wrecked Z24 = $35
pulling out the IAT sensor = free
running a bigger jet on the fuel side = free
So it seems from alot of posts people are saying running rich gets you further away from detonation, as does retarding the timing,. SO, would adding more fuel in while spraying cure this timing retard curse us 2200's have...(any car actually, but an MSD is the only way besides a cam with (-) timing already on it for the 2200 to actually retard the timing from what I know)
JB (teh j00ced one) wrote:that IAT bull$hit doesnt do a damn thing. the iat sensor IS seeing colder air temp when the n2o is injected into the intake...unless you're running direct port.
Uhh well it DOES tell the ECU to dump in more fuel to compensate for air changes, thus going to my question of asking if more fuel = another way to help out with spraying a bigger shot....and I hope you haven't installed nitrous on a J yet considering the nitrous Nozzle should be a good ways away from where the IAT sensor is located (atleast on a 2200)
jbodyho wrote:The rate of combustion is faster with nitrous, so an engine does not need, nor is it desireable to have as much timing.
The point being you are attempting to have peak cylinder pressure (and heat) occur at a point that is optimal for your engine/cam combo.
Running nitrous a bit rich will help stave off detonation, but doesn't address the above.
If your car is tuned optimally, timing wise for N/A running, less timing with nitrous will make more power and be easier on the internals. It's really that simple.
None of this is my expert opinion, just regurgitated facts from reading over the years. Google the subject what is nitrous, nitrous ignition timing, tuning nitrous, etc. The theory and practice of nitrous use hasn't changed in decades. NOS's site has good reference info.
What you "need" to do versus what you "should" do are up to you though
The only opinion I offer when it comes to sizable shots of nitrous....there's no such thing as too much octane. Consider it engine self protection.
jbodyho.... aka the "old guy" as KQ4 call me.
I'm sure the answer I need is in here somewhere but it's not registering! Also the crappy thing about running a higher octane on our cars is that the ECU's are programmed for 87oct. I can get 102oct and even c16 but the engine would perform terrible and isn't there something in the engine that starts to fry when too much octane is present?
Thanks everybody for their opinions even if pne made no sense haha! I appreciate it and keep them coming!
N2O + Bolt-ons
= 220Hp/
250Tq
Coming Soon:HpTunersPro, EagleConnectingRods, WiescoPistons, 13sec2200
yes i have been running nitrous on my J for a while now, i spray my dry kit before the IAT sensor, using the zex ejector air filter. no problems yet. ive tried both locations. even if it does ruin the sensor, who cares. as you said, it costs literally nothing to go swipe a sensor off a junk yard car.
with the nozzle mounted after the sensor, all the air is still being chilled through the intake. the entire pipe is ice cold.
more fuel does not act as a timing retard. running a larger fuel jet than is recommended will cause major problems such as fuel puddling in the manifold, which will explosively ignite causing damage. too much fuel can also wash down the cylinder walls. the manufacturers jet recommendation is already set slightly rich to avoid lean conditions. any larger jetting will likely cause problems.
Cam timing is completely different from ignition timing. cam timing will not help detonation and will cause other problems, not to mention you'd probably need adjustable cam gears to do this, and an aftermarket cam profile.
JB (teh j00ced one) wrote:yes i have been running nitrous on my J for a while now, i spray my dry kit before the IAT sensor, using the zex ejector air filter. no problems yet. ive tried both locations. even if it does ruin the sensor, who cares. as you said, it costs literally nothing to go swipe a sensor off a junk yard car.
with the nozzle mounted after the sensor, all the air is still being chilled through the intake. the entire pipe is ice cold.
more fuel does not act as a timing retard. running a larger fuel jet than is recommended will cause major problems such as fuel puddling in the manifold, which will explosively ignite causing damage. too much fuel can also wash down the cylinder walls. the manufacturers jet recommendation is already set slightly rich to avoid lean conditions. any larger jetting will likely cause problems.
Cam timing is completely different from ignition timing. cam timing will not help detonation and will cause other problems, not to mention you'd probably need adjustable cam gears to do this, and an aftermarket cam profile.
Now that's some good info for my brain! Thanks!
N2O + Bolt-ons
= 220Hp/
250Tq
Coming Soon:HpTunersPro, EagleConnectingRods, WiescoPistons, 13sec2200
