Ok guys, here are a few questions I have been wondering about.
A few guys have had some cams and stuff in past that they have not had successfully work on the Ecotec motor, question is why??
How the hell can the ECU see that you have bigger cams??
I know the guys have ran them N/A, and they were throwing bunch of codes and crap, but I don't see how?

I was looking at the GM Build Book, and from 400-600 hp build, they suggest you go with 274 lift cams with 222 duration.
Now, won't that duration kill you on the exhaust cam with a Turbo motor?

This is what I am planning on doing, in next few months.
I am going to local shop here and they are gonna make me a fuel and ignition box to control my motor.
I am gonna use that with my L61 bottom since I have now Eagle rods and Wiesco pistons.
As for head I am going to use my LSJ head that I have sitting collecting dust(well I have the whole motor I don't wanna use the bottom just yet)

The LSJ head is gonna have following, those cams, dual valve spring, TI retainers, seats, adjustable cam gears, and solid followers(I know theses tap like crazy and you might think why am I doing this?, I will be revving past 8000 rpm)
Why, I don't know why not.
I am going to be using LSJ cam position sensor, and individual coils since I have them and the wiring for all this crap.

The only problem that I am going to have is that LSJ doesn't come with PS pump but then I thought about using LSJ exhaust cam for the position sensor and the L61 intake for the power steering pump, but then I heard that cam do not interchange between the lost foam and sand cast head, is this true??

I know one might get intimidated with these questions and you might think you CANNOT HELP ME!!
If you know anything about any cams and you give me your input you are helping, if anyone knows about some other stuff, please feel free to input.
Even if you don't know about anything just say that I am crazy or whatever,

I might have a pretty quick Cavy, but I am far from knowing it all, I guess you can call my QUEST somewhat lucky.
Thanks guys.
This should be done by August and the bash I hope to go this year.
Trailoring the car outthere to Illinois.



Best time:"""11.946""" @ 114.73 mph @17psi 1.83--60"
11 second daily driver!!!!
Race Related 727-561-9440
Shop of choice for your 11 second J body!

Also, built bottom end and or top end LSJ and L61's available.
13's ----12's ----11's ----10's

so your going to use you l61 head for the built motor (the more built motor.....god I hate you) right? any reason for switching the heads?

also Im guessing the lsj rods and pistons are stonger then the wesico and eagle

sorry I cant help you.


"Kick azz is my boost hero!!! "

the cams are different...............your best bet is to get cams for the lsj or use the stock cams in it. btw both have the hex head for powersterring on the lsj

the cams are not interchangable ot my knowledge.....

on the l61 the exhaust cam is shorter, which causes a problem w/ the cant think of the name but its where the cams sit in.

but the cams out of the redline should work good.....or per say you could get the stock cams out of saab 9-3.its turbocharged and MIGHT offer more improvement than the l61's


imo


*************Yea i spell liek wrong get over it*****************
** If i write in caps its cause im @ work and i can only write in caps cause the keyboard is a retarded CAPS only keyboard.**

Ok here is the plan Jcavi, you got it somewhat wrong.
L61 head is an OK head for the most psrt but coming from VERY reliable source and I have read about it, once you start putting 30+ psi and 500+ tq through it the #1 and #4 Combustion Chamber starts to lift making your head gasket blow.
Detonation affect this as well and you sometimes get a little tunning with very sophisticated tools, cause they are so damn difficult. lol
There is a solution for this, you drill a hole though the head right above these particular chambers not inot the water jacket or oil gallery, but there is a part where nothing flows that you can drill you have to locate it and just tap and drive a stud or a bolt and put 5-6 inches of torque on the chambers to stop them from lifting.
Or you can swap the head to LSJ sand cast head which doesn't have this problem.
L61 head developed this due to it being made through lost foam process.

I however was given a brand new LSJ with F25 tranny and a blower that I have donated to Steve aka Blue on the ORG, since he wanted it, I had no use for it, so I can just use this head.
So I am gonna run the L61 head it is not giving me problems and it has been up to about 370 ft/tq but I have bigger plans, so I am gonna built this one and once it is done I am just gonna swap it one day.

Now the reason I am going to use the L61 bottom is cause it is forged right now and LSJ bottom that I will have left over is NOT.
It is not by any means stronger than my Eagle/Wiesco combo but neverthless stonger than stock L61 stuff.
When funds permit I will either get some Crower/? combo for the LSJ block for the 500-600 goal.

I heard a rumor that LSJ and L61 are running same internals, but if someone can confirm this it would be nice.
I know that both have the 86mm piston bore, only thing the stroke is shorter, but that could easily be accoplished with crank journals being closer together, and rods might be the same legth as well.
I don't know about the bottom end at this time tho.

That is what I am doing.




Best time:"""11.946""" @ 114.73 mph @17psi 1.83--60"
11 second daily driver!!!!
Race Related 727-561-9440
Shop of choice for your 11 second J body!

Also, built bottom end and or top end LSJ and L61's available.
13's ----12's ----11's ----10's

Thanks snowman, I am just going to get the LSJ 274 cams then, since from what I understand you are saying that the intake cam still has the hex drive even tho the cars don't use it cause they don't run the PS pumps.

This is a motor from Saab but aren't they all?? I don't think Saab Turbo cams will carry my power band up to 8K, but thanks for the advice I will look into those just to see if there is any difference.



Best time:"""11.946""" @ 114.73 mph @17psi 1.83--60"
11 second daily driver!!!!
Race Related 727-561-9440
Shop of choice for your 11 second J body!

Also, built bottom end and or top end LSJ and L61's available.
13's ----12's ----11's ----10's

Quote:

Ok guys, here are a few questions I have been wondering about.
A few guys have had some cams and stuff in past that they have not had successfully work on the Ecotec motor, question is why??
How the hell can the ECU see that you have bigger cams??
I know the guys have ran them N/A, and they were throwing bunch of codes and crap, but I don't see how?

i dont know the answer to all the rest but as far as this goes.

the reason the ecu threw codes and pulled timing is they were all too agressive N/A profile cams for the STOCK ecu to handle. the excessive overlap created the "lope" well the stock ecu picked up on the "lope" and probley thought it was knocking.. so it pulled timing to try and compinsate. phamton knock. when the ecu thinks theirs knocking due to a radiacal cam profile. thats why almost everyone had lil or no gains. or even losses with them.

since your going with a f/i cam with less overlap. you SHOULDNT have a problem... key word being shouldnt... since no one as done a f/i grind on the eco.. u would be the 1st.

hell man why not

1st on stock internals, axles etc and 11's. why not be the ginni pig on the cams

just a lil fyi, aaron at turbo tech has turbo grinde cams for the eco.

http://www.turbotechracing.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=529&idproduct=2450

-Turbo Applications power from 2200-7000rpm .423 intake and .419 exhaust valve lift, 248 intake and 244 exhaust duration advertized (204 intake and 200 exhaust @ .050" duration) Wide power range, good power.

i dont know how much power you exactly plan on running.... but just some advice.. i remember in one of your other threads u were upset when the turbo went. if you plan on making 500whp, how reliable do you think the car is going to be? its not fun if your constantly breaking things.
lil more boost, head work, cams, maybe stronger axles.. u should be very very deep into the 11's.

just trying to be helpful. I pulled this out of the Eco sticky that NJHK wrote. I thought it might help.

Influx wrote:I thought I posted this information on the org, but I just have it on ecotecpower.com. I made a list of all the Cam options for the ecotec. You can add it to the cam info above, or just use this link....

http://www.ecotecpower.com/forums/read.php?f=4&i=2325&t=2325

Desert Tuners

“When you come across a big kettle of crazy, it’s best not to stir it.”

John H the cams that you are reffering to?? Are they for LSJ motor or L61 cause I am planning on using the LSJ head?
I am by no means gonna mess with the stock ECU or anything this will be full programmable fuel and ignition management that I am going to pick up here locally.

Yes, I got sad after my 1st Turbo went (It was my baby man, 1st born I mean understand that this was the beggining of all for me and my Turbo days) But I have moved on and have a year warranty now.
Breaking stuff, I don't most of the time, this I will do right.
I got someone very knowledgeable about Ecotec motors working on my side with this thing.

The cams I am looking at are I guess GM Performance or some crap., They need to peak power wise at least 7600-7800 cause I wanna take it 8000 plus.

I am thinking about picking up another ride tho, so breaking will not be as big of an issue.

Z24 FreQ, thanks but those are N/A cams as I can tell.

Thanks for all the input guy weather good or bad.



Best time:"""11.946""" @ 114.73 mph @17psi 1.83--60"
11 second daily driver!!!!
Race Related 727-561-9440
Shop of choice for your 11 second J body!

Also, built bottom end and or top end LSJ and L61's available.
13's ----12's ----11's ----10's

apparently, there is a Comp Cam grind for N/A, turbo and supercharges. I thought you might get some info from those specs.


Desert Tuners

“When you come across a big kettle of crazy, it’s best not to stir it.”

Cool, I might call them today and see what they have available.
Thanks man.



Best time:"""11.946""" @ 114.73 mph @17psi 1.83--60"
11 second daily driver!!!!
Race Related 727-561-9440
Shop of choice for your 11 second J body!

Also, built bottom end and or top end LSJ and L61's available.
13's ----12's ----11's ----10's

you're welcome. I'd like to see you get to a 10 sec daily driver too.

actually, I think this is good experience/knowledge for anyone that wants to build a fast eco-powered J.


Desert Tuners

“When you come across a big kettle of crazy, it’s best not to stir it.”

See tho, so many people don't see my car as a daily driver even now.
Even tho I drive it every day all day just like it is, because it is my ONLY car.

Imagine what will they think of it when a have to get a cage in it.


Best time:"""11.946""" @ 114.73 mph @17psi 1.83--60"
11 second daily driver!!!!
Race Related 727-561-9440
Shop of choice for your 11 second J body!

Also, built bottom end and or top end LSJ and L61's available.
13's ----12's ----11's ----10's

FI cams dont have a big overlap?


"Kick azz is my boost hero!!! "

LSJ pistons and rods should fit the 2.2 eco, because i think they're the same size. The diff is that the LSJ rods are forged steel I-beams whereas the L81 are powder metal.

Supposedly the LSJ head flows better, and the sodium filled valves should hold up better to high power.

As for cams, the reason they didn't work previously and threw codes is because drastically changing cam specs without changing the fuel curves and adjusting timing advance to match is going to cause either rich/lean mixtures at certain rpms or even misfires in extreme cases. Even in the days of the carburetor you couldn't just throw a different cam in and expect it to work. The 274's should be fine with the ability to TUNE properly for them.




Arrival Blue 04 LS Sport
Eco
Turbo
Megasquirt
'Nuff said

i have no ecotec cam knowledge. all i heard is that a few people had issues.

i got the seceret cams in my ld9, i love them. . i cant imangine having some 'real' power and a good set of cams. whooo weee, sounds like fun.

the l61 and the lsj do not run the same internals, the l61's rods fail at 283 and its been tested many times by gm, the lsj internals will easily last clear up to around 400, the cranks are the same i believe tho.

jcavi- the lsj rods and pistons arent nearly as good as the eagle rods and the wiseco forged pistons. you use the lsj rods and pistons to around 400 and the wiseco pistons and rods are rated to 700+ hp, so to answer your question. the lsj internals arent better than wiseco or eagle.

Quote:

the l61's rods fail at 283 and its been tested many times by gm

thats been proven a joke.. gm did that on strait nitrous and a dry kit at that. many boosted cars have it that and passed it on stock internals.. dj, hypsy, paco, sun cavi i believe has too. im pushing close ball park right now.

Oh yea, I was way past 283 to the motor, I was past 283 at the wheels.
So internals are interchangeable so I can take my internals out of a 2.2L and jam them in the 2.0 and they will work.
I guess i am gonna look into that a little more.

Sorry guys I was banned for a day so I couldn't replay and stuff for saying I was messing with another car on a public road I swore I will not say anything anymore.
I am scared to post anymore quiet frankly cause I can say HI and gett banned, funny thing.

Anyways thanks everyone for the inputs and Jake thanks for the follow up.


Best time:"""11.946""" @ 114.73 mph @17psi 1.83--60"
11 second daily driver!!!!
Race Related 727-561-9440
Shop of choice for your 11 second J body!

Also, built bottom end and or top end LSJ and L61's available.
13's ----12's ----11's ----10's

Bonnett wrote:the l61 and the lsj do not run the same internals, the l61's rods fail at 283 and its been tested many times by gm, the lsj internals will easily last clear up to around 400, the cranks are the same i believe tho.

jcavi- the lsj rods and pistons arent nearly as good as the eagle rods and the wiseco forged pistons. you use the lsj rods and pistons to around 400 and the wiseco pistons and rods are rated to 700+ hp, so to answer your question. the lsj internals arent better than wiseco or eagle.

newb.



FU Tuning

alright as for cams, the eco cams that were freaking out the ECU was N/A cams, the problem was they had alot of vavle overlap. On a N/A engine valve overlap causes scanging. As the exhaust is starting to close the intake is open, kinda flushes the cylinder out with fresh air fuel charge so theres no left over burnt up exhaust in the cylinder to rob power...... which IS a good thing but as the cylinder is geting flushed out where is that unburned air and fuel charge??? Straight past your O2 sensor into the cat, unburned fuel + 02 sensor = rich faults. The other issue with them is they caused alot of lope (listen to the sloppy idle) especially on a 4 bangerwe don't really have enough rotating mass to steady out a lopey idle's RPM speed, which in turn makes the computer think there detonation at Idle and its knocking. I don't know about the 222 cams killing you or not but honestly I think it'd be fine, you just need to make sure you avoid valve overlap or its gonna kill your spool time and cause a power loss.


one thing I will advise you to do is pick up a micrometer set, and a one of the T gauge you can lock in place... if you want to know if things are interchangable start measuring! Get us some answers too

wesico and eagle would be my choice over the LSJ internals. Your forged either way so why not stay at a 2.2 liter over a 2.0.

If the cams are different I would say screw the power stearing, lossing it all together would probobally be the best option. It will free up more power not to mention you did say you want to spin up past 8K mark.... your accessories are gonna have to spin that fast as well and that will definetly speed up the probess of wearing them out.

As for internals being interchangable, the crank is different for sure cause its destroked down to a 2.0, the rods have affect on stroke or anything just compression ratio, the pistons effect displacement and compration rataio, ao long as the crank journals are the same size on both engine they would proobally be interchangable... hell if they are not the same size you could easy hone them out a bit more or get a slighly thicker bearing to take up space and keep the clearances correct.

and yes comp cams has a turbo eco grind

and now I'm gonna be late for work, thats what I get for posting in the mournings hahhaha

Nice post man thank a lot and I like the way that thing sounded. lol
I am gonna get some deffinite answeres fot the internals for you guys.



Best time:"""11.946""" @ 114.73 mph @17psi 1.83--60"
11 second daily driver!!!!
Race Related 727-561-9440
Shop of choice for your 11 second J body!

Also, built bottom end and or top end LSJ and L61's available.
13's ----12's ----11's ----10's

Quote:

I was banned for a day so I couldn't replay and stuff for saying I was messing with another car on a public road I swore I will not say anything anymore.
I am scared to post anymore quiet frankly cause I can say HI and gett banned, funny thing.

No kidding.
Everytime I say something, I'm afaraid of getting either banned, or flamed, too.

I can offer you this bit of advice. Having been very succesfull with my own turbo race cars, and being in the cam business, I can tell you that the cam overlap/ turbo/nonturbo cam issue is more myth than reality (just like the backpressure arguement). For the most part, you cam (duration) for your intended RPM range, regardless of whether you are turbo, or S/C, or not. You run as much lift as you can with your valvetrain/duration will allow.
The effect of the overlap that makes everyone nervous is long gone by the time you reach any meaninful boost level. The reality is that if you want to make power to 8K, your going to have to sacrifice something on the bottom end, anyway.
I learned this lesson myself, not only on my own land speed cars, but also from working with well known land speed racer Tom Bruch (Porsche master tech for 40yrs, and over 2 dozen LS records)
I do not sell cams for your motor.
OK flame away.

I see man so get some high ass lift cam and log duration, well as long as it gets with particular lift and I will be good.
I chose NOT to go higher than 274 lift cause on DSM's that bitch still carries power up to like 8500 rpm.
Iknow I local T here that has them the HKS 272's shifts at like 8800 and occasionally 9200 rpm.
Makes like 550+.

Thanks man



Best time:"""11.946""" @ 114.73 mph @17psi 1.83--60"
11 second daily driver!!!!
Race Related 727-561-9440
Shop of choice for your 11 second J body!

Also, built bottom end and or top end LSJ and L61's available.
13's ----12's ----11's ----10's

To use the LSJ rods you have to use special pistons. Has anybody even read the PDF that has all of the ecotec info in it? It even shows you how to install LSJ con rods with a special piston ( wrist pin is moved up because the rods are longer).

I was a little confused because they installed rods and pistons with the motor still in the car which a great idea but they did not balance the crank? Is that because the Ecotec uses balance shafts?

SUNCAVI did you balance you internals when you installed yours?

I know GM's HP rating for parts are low but I sure wouldn't take the LSJ rods over 400 wheel HP and by the time you buy the special Pistons (GM sells them) you are at the same cost as the Eagle/wiesco combo.

As for Cams I don't think you can compair HKS 272's to something that has a 272 duration there is a lot more to cams then just duration there are ramp up rates and all kinds suff I don't even understand.

I think expermenting with cams is a great idea especially for FI cars they can make good power increases but you have to becareful there are a lot of things to watch for I.E: coil bind, valve float, Piston valve clearance, etc, etc

Jason

Lift has little to do with max RPM, or powerband, and comparing DSM grinds to Ecos makes little sense.
Decide where you want to rev, choose duration, based on that, and the lift that suits you best for your application will follow. Your lift choices will be narrowed down by a few things, of course.One of them is the hardware you plan to run, like springs, etc., but you also have to live with whatever is available.
Its all part of a combo that has to work together.