Hey guys,
Well I've had the kit now since it came out on the market. Now the people that know me know that I have not even modified anything other than that temporary change of the air filter, because I have been skeptical about what the value would be from the different types of modifications. But now on to the real topic what is the downfall of this kit?
I have the aftercooler hooked up with all Cobalt SS parts on my car and first off that was a huge advantage because I can see that it does bring down the intake temperatures while driving. BUT the intake temperatures are still extremely high. What I have come to notice is that if you drive the car and then park it the intake temperature over a short period of time equals the coolant temperature. What makes this even worse is that then once your intake temperature is now reading a cool 165 degrees on a day that it is 70 out and you start driving it takes forever to get the temperatures down. Even still I notice that my intake temperatures sit about 20-30 degrees above outside temperature, and there seems to be a bottle neck at about 100-110 degrees that once you hit that point it is nearly impossible to get out of it.
The worste part is even above 100 degrees I can see timing retard kicking in already. Granted I know the car is still faster than it was stock and I appreciate the extra boost that comes from the kit but I feel robbed in the fact that I can't get the power I feel I deserve just because these intake temperatures are so high. It's bad enough that a kid which reads it reaches a maximum of 11 psi I think once have I ever seen it even come close to 10 most of the time it only runs 9. All of this is now being read directly from the factory computer no more aftermarket gauges so I can interpret what it is calculating for.
Does anybody have any intelligent ideas on what a possible solution for this might be? Anybody who actually had this problem or has this setup and can give me actual intake temperature numbers for what they have done, or change in temperature over time due to a specific change?
Here is an example: At the track on Saturday it was 50 degrees outside cold night here in NJ. I left the hood open and let everything really cool down well. The coolant temperature and the intake temperature came down to 60 degrees when I finally went to race. Started up the car and continued onto the staging area. By the time I was lined up to run Intake temperature was up to 170 and my intake temperature was up to 85. I make my pass and while accelerating I watch my intake temperature increase to 110 and the timing start to retard. I take the return path and get back in line to make a run when my line is called. I turn off the car, pop the hood, look at my temperatures the intake temperature is now 170 and so is the coolant temperature. By the time I made my next pass the temperature only cooled down to about 120 degrees and the timing was retarded enough that my times where 0.3 seconds slower, repeat same process intake temperature up to 130 time drops by 0.1 more seconds.
It just becomes annoying when I can't rely on the performance of the car other than looking at a data log that I have created including all my temperature mappings and where the car usually runs. I would love to just get that intake temperature much closer to outside air temperature and not have to worry about this anymore. Thanks for any suggestions that you might have to offer.
Welcome to likfe of a super charger. Chargers get heat soaked and therefore make everyhing in the engine bay hotter (which will include the intake system, and then your air for your intake. Take a bag of ice to put on the charger in between runs to help cool it. Run a true intake, maybe a CAI intake to bring in cool (outside air to the charger). Alky injection is always a good thing. Still the 100 degree's intake temp seems about right for what we use to see on my friends Turboed and intercooled Ecotec as well.
FU Tuning
I know the guys that developed the Cobalt Cup cars did something different to the intercooler to make it work better. Check the GA cup biuld book.
I'm not sure what heat exchanger you are using, or where you placed it. Maybe you could experiment with placement or try a larger one.
A ice chest resevoir would be pretty easy to plumb.
A manual switch for the pump could be devised esily. Letting you run the cooler while the car is off in the staging lane.
I think the most succesul addition is alcohol injection.
Get a header. One of the best ways to get heat out.
hmmm... get a vented hood...if your into that sort of thing i bet it would help out at least some.
White 98'Z-alive n kickn
Black 97'Z-down for the count
wire the coolant pump so that it can be ran with the car off , also use a fan to circulate air accross the heat exchanger
take a few bags of ice to ice down the s/c , i do that with mine and my 2.4 isnt after cooled and with alky i can keep the iat's below 100 when its cool out
use water wetter or similar additive to the aftercooler system
with the aftercooler hooked up and fuctioning , you will not see the same max boost as with out 1 , the denser air keeps the pressure lower(keeping it simple)
start visiting the cobaltss and redline forums, they seem to have no problem getting their IATs down, granted they can have two HEs if they want...
also what are you using to monitor all of this ? IATs, timing retard, etc... ? I'm interested in monitoring these too...
14.425 @ 97.833 mph stock + GMPP s/c on drag radials.
I data logged mine after I installed the SC and my IATs are around 130 - 135 after several hard, hard runs! I've never seen IATs on mine that high? Most times I'm around 100-120 on normal, daily driving. Seen as low as 95 and a high of 137.
Also, I was seeing a strong 10 psi before my heat exchanger, strong 9psi after the heat exchanger and now that I have installed a CAI (instead of the OEM S tube with a K&N), I once again am seeing a strong 10 psi...even 11 at times now that the outside temps have cooled off.
My probelm has been the engine temps since I installed the SC...seeing 212 or so as a high but that's another post!
I'm not sure why you are seeing so much heat in your IATs? I'll data log tomorrow some for you and post up what I find again on mine and see if that helps any. I'm using auto enginuity as my program in case anyone wants to know.
Eh...old man with a Corvette now...it was bound to happen sooner rather than later right?
Cobalt Addiction Heat Exchanger, with a co2 cooler on it
Water Meth Injection
machined supercharger from intense
possibly a dry shot of nitrous, very small one like a 25
possibly some hood modification, like a extractor hood, has a vent in it near upfront, also fiberglass wont retain as much heat as your stock metal hood
just some ideas....
1989 Turbo Trans Am #82, 2007 Cobalt SS G85
I'm using a scan gauge to watch everything. Blueduece try this, run the car hard let the temperature for coolant get up to normal 190, then turn off the car and let it sit for about 30 minutes. Come back don't start the car just look at what your tool reads for intake temperature and coolant temperature. They should be equal. If they aren't let me know and maybe it would be worth the investment to use what ever cooling method you use.
I'm trying to avoid any modifications to the system because I am still underwarranty and have used it already thanks to a faulty ignition on #2 but that is another story. So I'll wait before tryign any of these "tricks" that you guys mentioned. However I'm not looking to try things that "might" work I would like to try things that are proven as reliable concepts for daily use. Also what kind of long ram intake did you purchase to use? I was thinking maybe using an intake could cool it down, but I haven't gotten to the point where I am ready to relocate the battery and modify to get a tube down into the fender.
I'm not sure why your coolant temps are that high though, sounds to me like your thermostat isn't opening up soon enough. Hope you get that fixed don't want to see your engine over heating like that. Mine rarly ever goes over 190 and that's even when I'm in traffic.
I'd tell you how my temps are doing but I dont have my car anymore, I still have the S/C just not the car, hehe. Good luck with figuring it out!
Is the pump spining the correct direction?
Do you have good flow in the system (no kinked hoses or restrictions)?
sig not found
I think what you should take note of is what the grand prix guys are doing. They have m90s so basicly they are dealing with the same problems.
Heat = KR
They have been doing this for longer than the cobalt or red line guys, if you dont think they get results they have at least 50 cars running 12.99 or better.
http://www.clubgp.com/newforum/tm.asp?m=2867792&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1
This link will start you out, its what they do to reduce pulley size. If you want less KR and heat soak it would be a good place to start.
"Go Before Show Yo."
CARCUSTOMS.NET, THE BEST SERVICE ON THE ORG!!!
So his concern is that he is equalizing with no flow? Not much you can do about it unless you take the suggestions mentioned here.
If you were to add a bypass switch to the IC pump and the rad fan that would in no way affect the warranty on the supercharger system, as they AREN"T PART OF THE KIT! If you want you stuff to cool down you have to make it cool, an ambient system will equalize, if you keep the fluid flowing, problem solved.
Alright...I ran my scanning tool on my SC Eco today and I seen a few things...
One...my IAT are running around 115 - 135 depending on traffic and such but in the open, I see around 125 - 130.
Now, I ran the scan tool after all of this ( about 30 minutes after like you said) and saw exactly what you talked about...engine temps were the same as IATs...but I'll have to say after thinking this thru...I see no reason why they wouldn't be the same!
Here is my thought process on this...the engine is not running and therfore the IATs would be the exact same as the engine temps...no reason for them not to be!!
If I was...and when I was....running the car hard there was airflow...plently of airflow from the CAI I have and my IATs were down where they should be!! When the car is not running and the SC is not pulling air in the intake, why would the IATs be lower?
I may be missing something here but seems to me as long as the IATs are down around 100 - 125 or so when the car is running then you have no problems...when the car is off and only measures the IATs as they stand...they should read about the same as engine temps or as cold or cool as the air you are in...not pulling in as the car is not running...but the air you sit in considering the engine bay temps and the overall temp of the engine.
IDK..maybe I've missed something here...I am going to run more tomorrow as I want to see what my temps are (IATs and engine temps) compared to be before I ran the CAI and the heat exchanger so I'll have a bit more info tomorrow...
(sorry, here in Germany it's already 1120!!!)
Eh...old man with a Corvette now...it was bound to happen sooner rather than later right?
OK thanks. Now that you have seen the first part here is the second part which creates my full issue. The car has now sat for 30 minutes, the intake and coolant temperatures have equalized. Now go for a drive. How long does it take to cool down the temperatures again? Usually once my temperatures are up to 150+ I can't get them back down. My concerns are mostly about my daily driving than anything else. Because I go to work in the morning car is all fine. I go on my lunch break the temperatures are high and they don't go down below 140. I go home after work temperatures are still high. Finally temperatures drop at night and the temperatures start to come down to 100. I just wish I could get those temperatures down to 100 during the day and not have to way for the sun to go down and the temperatures outside to drop to the point where I need the heat on.
OK thanks. Now that you have seen the first part here is the second part which creates my full issue. The car has now sat for 30 minutes, the intake and coolant temperatures have equalized. Now go for a drive. How long does it take to cool down the temperatures again? Usually once my temperatures are up to 150+ I can't get them back down. My concerns are mostly about my daily driving than anything else. Because I go to work in the morning car is all fine. I go on my lunch break the temperatures are high and they don't go down below 140. I go home after work temperatures are still high. Finally temperatures drop at night and the temperatures start to come down to 100. I just wish I could get those temperatures down to 100 during the day and not have to way for the sun to go down and the temperatures outside to drop to the point where I need the heat on.
Basically what I have decided is like you guys said with the running the pump on a switch. I'll put a timer on it so that the pump and fan always run for 5 minutes after the car is off. I figure that should be a good enough time to keep things moving. It's the first of logical steps that I can think of which will make it better temperatures.
But here is something I just caught. Blue Duece, what are the outside temperatures that yoru itnake is so hot? I'm running a stock intake and my intake temperatrues are not that high while normal cruising or even under WOT. (Until I let the car sit after driving to work).
I'm a little lost as to the nature of the problem... Basically what you're saying is the charger is hot and doesn't cool down fast and that is why the IATs (taken after the charger right ?) are high ? Because I can only see a hot charger as the reson to why the air would be hotter than usual... I'd have to monitor my IATs, but a full day at the track with 20+ passes trapping the same in the morning and in the evening tells me I'm not having such an issue and I'm not even intercooled yet...
14.425 @ 97.833 mph stock + GMPP s/c on drag radials.
Hmm not even intercooled. Interesting. Actually it's not that the blower is hot. it's that the manifold is refusing to cool down. I have been monitoring this all summer because my times drop drastically as the day goes on, and I have been going out getting tools and gauges to watch everything and determine where the exact issue is. I've narrowed it down to the manifold getting hot and staying hot, but I can't figure out how to cool down. I've had many thoughts which have been brought up in these posts but nothing that I can garuntee will work. And I'm not looking to invest to much money into this, I would rather just do something right the first time. Which is why I'm asking for help from the org trying to see if anyone else has looked at ways to resolve this and what their solutions have been, plus their results.
ok I get it now... basically since the manifold is now metal instead of plastic and it's bolted to the engine, it makes sense that it will stay relatively close to engine temps... so the flowing of the coolant after the car is stopped makes sense, but I wonder how effective that would be, seeing as the HE isn't getting any air to cool down the coolant... so as it passes through the HE it doesn't cool down, but when it returns to the intake manifold it becomes hot again... wouldn't it be even worse than letting the major part of the coolant out of the intake mani by NOT flowing it ?
14.425 @ 97.833 mph stock + GMPP s/c on drag radials.
DanteMustDie wrote:ok I get it now... basically since the manifold is now metal instead of plastic and it's bolted to the engine, it makes sense that it will stay relatively close to engine temps... so the flowing of the coolant after the car is stopped makes sense, but I wonder how effective that would be, seeing as the HE isn't getting any air to cool down the coolant... so as it passes through the HE it doesn't cool down, but when it returns to the intake manifold it becomes hot again... wouldn't it be even worse than letting the major part of the coolant out of the intake mani by NOT flowing it ?
The heat exchanger will cool down, as it's exposed to fresh air, whether it's being forced past it or not, and the rest of the coolant in that system will cool down accordingly via osmosis, the same way that a block heater heats the coolant in the system.
For the original poster: A CAI will help once the car is running, as cooler air in = cooler air out, and a header will help get heat out of the engine and engine bay so it's not lingering causing heat soak. I'm guessing you live in a warm climate, so throw some water wetter or other product into the coolant system(s), as it helps increase the system's efficiency of getting rid of heat. If it's available in your area, try running ethanol blended fuel, as the ethanol burns cooler and can help with detonation if that's an issue.
15.3 @ 89.97mph, 14's on the way?
The ECOnator (Encriptor) wrote:But here is something I just caught. Blue Duece, what are the outside temperatures that yoru itnake is so hot? I'm running a stock intake and my intake temperatrues are not that high while normal cruising or even under WOT. (Until I let the car sit after driving to work).
I don't know why my intake temps are so hot as it's not hot here at all...more like mid 60s right now and even 40s or so at night! I have some bad engine bay temps from the engine running warmer than it should and a header that just heats up my engine bay like crazy!!
I have to go run the car some more with the new coolant I have and see where I am again I think? Plus I just got hte CAI installed and other than Saturday, I hadn't run any data on it other than what you asked for. So I need to check it all again and see as I was more concerned with what it was reading after 30 minutes than what it was doing while driving...
I'lll let you know or post up here once I get a chance after work to run it again.
Eh...old man with a Corvette now...it was bound to happen sooner rather than later right?
The ECOnator (Encriptor) wrote:Hmm not even intercooled. Interesting. Actually it's not that the blower is hot. it's that the manifold is refusing to cool down. I have been monitoring this all summer because my times drop drastically as the day goes on, and I have been going out getting tools and gauges to watch everything and determine where the exact issue is. I've narrowed it down to the manifold getting hot and staying hot, but I can't figure out how to cool down. I've had many thoughts which have been brought up in these posts but nothing that I can garuntee will work. And I'm not looking to invest to much money into this, I would rather just do something right the first time. Which is why I'm asking for help from the org trying to see if anyone else has looked at ways to resolve this and what their solutions have been, plus their results.
Ergo why putting in a swtich to run the pump and a rad fan, if your HE is positioned where the rad fan will be able to actually pull air through the HE, would be the best way to do it. Normalization occurs in every system.
This is the main reason that I broguh up position of HE's in another thread, if you hang them way out fron off the bumper support the rad fan does you no good. Mine is right in front of the condensor and the rad fan will pull air through mine if I need it to set-up that way.
Also realize that when you shut the car off, the bypass valves closes and the rotors have stopped spinning, so the air that is in the manifold is trapped and has no circulation so it will normalize to the ambient temps around it, and unless you added a spacer between the manifold and the head that doesn't conduct heat, the manifold is going to leach heat off the much wamrer block, as that is one of the transitive properties of Aluminum: It is an amazing heat conductor.
Anyone try installing Air/Water Cooler?? I plan on a S/C and was gonna try it, seen them make big tempature drops on other cars.
the eco s/c is set up with a air to water heat exchanger system
atleast the intake is , then you gotta do the pump lines and exchanger radiator
