Hello everyone!
Adam and I have been kicking around some ideas for the Sunfire project, and we decided that it would be interesting to get some feedback from everyone here on the board.
We've got several ways we can go...
First off, to bring things up to date, this is the street 2003 Ecotec/5 speed Sunfire Adam drove to 11.40 @125 performance back in late 2005. In that iteration, it was built to show the capability of our standard bolt-on turbosystems, and it used all off-the-shelf readily available parts. Basically, it was a Stage II kit with the addition of a 20g-H turbo and our PortFueler StreetRace intake manifold setup. In 2006, we just turned the boost down, and did some bracket racing and street cruising.
For this season, we've got a new engine that's pretty tasty, with sleeved cylinders, steel crank, ported head, bigger valves, bigger cams, and of course rods/pistons. This is considerably more potential than the previous engine, which was fairly mild (stock save for piston and rod upgrades).
So, here's the options:
1. We can run the existing turbosystem and add a nitrous kit. This is a great way to continue to show the capabilites of the standard turbosystem. Easy and fun, but the additional complexity and maintenence chores of the nitrous system are negatives, and as this engine would be capable of some serious power overall, we'd probably run out of airflow before we'd max it out.
2. We can put a large turbo on it and build a new system with a larger intercooler and piping, and a new turbo header (our standard manifolds have been proven good to about 575 HP in GM Racing applications, but we'd want to surpass that). This is considerably more work than option 1, but will result in a cleaner setup overall, with no bottles to fill or nitrous system to keep up on. We like the idea of no nitrous, but aren't sure if a 'one-off custom' setup is the best choice for a Hahn RaceCraft car. Of course, a one-off custom is ok at ths point because we've already shown the capabilities of the standard turbosystem we offer. In this new iteration, it could just be a car we go have fun with, as opposed to its previous life as a 'product demonstrator'. On the other hand, it would not be a one-off if we also make these new, higher-flow components available to the public...then it's all good...yet, at low production volumes, they likely won't be inexpensive.
In either case, we've also got some options with the engine management. We could continue on with the PortFueler, and use HPTuners to tailor the rev limiter and accomodate the different airflow the head/valve/cam upgrades present. Or, we could use a DFI Gen VII, which would be better suited to the task overall, but makes it more of a 'race' car.
Also, in either case, we are also going to develop a multi-plate clutch system (this will definitely be a production item), and are considering an airbag suspension (for those of you who may recall, we had 'bags' on our first Eco Cav a few years back, and we are interested in continuing to develop this concept). Both of these items will surface in other threads in the appropriate board categories.
So, what do you guys and gals think? Any and all comments are welcome, we'd like to think of this car as a product of the J-body community overall...fact is, it would not have existed in the first place without you people creating a reason for us to build it.
Bill Hahn Jr.
Hahn RaceCraft
World's Quickest and Fastest Street J-Bodies
Turbocharging GM FWD's since 1988
www.turbosystem.com
option 2 interests me more, plus it would be more fun. it would be really nice to see some one other than GM hit some nice barriers with the ecotec.
i'm very interested in this clutch that you speak of.
11.4 on just rods and pistons... You have proven more than you would ever be expected to.
You have shown that the Ecotec more than a threat to imports, so now show them where to stick it!
<img src="http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/3/web/831000-831999/831395_11_full.jpg">
Option 2. With HpTuners and the Portfueler.
It would be cool to see you break some records with parts that a lot of us are more likely to use on a street car. I am planning on getting the port fueler one day, and I already have HpTuners... So, seeing this combination breaking records would be great!!
No spray!
Or... Option 2 + spary
only cause ima add a 50-75 shot one day
|Forged 8.9:1 Wiseco Pistons|Forged Eagle Rods|HPTuners|60trim|Tial Wastegate|
|Precision Intercooler|2.5" Exhaust|2.5" Charge Pipes|630CC Mototron Injectors|
|Stock: Fuel Pump, Transmission, Manifold, TB, Head, Head Gasket, Ignition, Suspension...|
I think you guys need to do what you want to do and stop worrying about the perception of the kit at this point.
You've showed that your kit can take a J to speeds and times no one thought possible even a couple years ago. I think you guys need to take the gloves off and run that biatch full out. I know with that crazy imagination of yours and the driving skills of you and Adam you guys could do things that no one will believe.
Just my .02.
I used to race cars, now I race myself.
5K PB: 24:50
10K PB: 54:26
balls out, bigger turbo, better setup.
I'm all about standalones vs. HPT.
how fast can you take a stock bodied j? that's the next goal you guys should reach. (apparently its to the 11's so far!)
no nitrous.
Steve, what is your definition of a stock bodied car??? Would the air bags make that out of the question?
Street-Legal 2003 Sunfire 10.58 @ 139 MPH
an attainable shopping list is certainly better for business...
|Forged 8.9:1 Wiseco Pistons|Forged Eagle Rods|HPTuners|60trim|Tial Wastegate|
|Precision Intercooler|2.5" Exhaust|2.5" Charge Pipes|630CC Mototron Injectors|
|Stock: Fuel Pump, Transmission, Manifold, TB, Head, Head Gasket, Ignition, Suspension...|
drop the bottle....run this thing on all boost....see how far u guys can push the eco with a giant F'n turbo....you guys are an inspiration to all of us.....and a 10 sec sunfire would be rediculus....'
on a side note- did u guys ever make a 2.4 kit??? What kinda times u put down with that kit if u did....
you scratch my ride IMA EAT YO CHILDREN
something that's streetable and will pass emissions.
Desert Tuners
“When you come across a big kettle of crazy, it’s best not to stir it.”
Shifted wrote:Balls to the wall man, go all the way.
x2. Show everyone your capability's with these engines.
Proud member of Jbody of Kentucky ... Click on sig to go!
I'd have to say option 1.....gm already did option 2 in a big way and if you go that route it will not show anybody anything they didn't already know......that the eco can make power. What people dont know is for how cheap it can be done, this is where gm sucked. My thoughts are to take your off the shelf system and max it out with a cheap nitrous kit and see where you land. That way people can afford to get a very fast J, not scrimping and saving to get low volume parts which is what is already out there for the eco's.
It's just that by the time you finish the "balls to the walls" system you wont have anything more than what you had before...............stick with showing off what your off the shelf (higher volume = lower prices = people can actually buy) systems can do.
GM did do option 2, but they are a massive corporation that knows their motors and management systems in and out and have the financial budget to back it all up. Heck, they are even rotating motors in their cars. We know the ECO can take power and make more. But of course the company that makes every part in the car can make any model full of power and fast, they have the parts to spare
. Why not let a private company show them how it can be done with a so much less radical version?
Street-Legal 2003 Sunfire 10.58 @ 139 MPH
Well i dont really see option 2 as selling more products for you. option 1 atleast says look what you can do if you buy this kit. option 2 says look what you can do if you get all these custom parts. and dont get a cheap nitrous kit, not that you would but maybe throw in some backing parts and put some rods and pistons in it just to be safe.
option 1 is ok , but will put you near your max power , depending on how much you spray
option 2 , would be very cool , even more so if you think about making some kits for those that want some serious power
I agree do option 2 but market the "harcore parts" for the jbody platform. You arent going to sell a ton of them but if your doing it anyway....
14.261@ 95.45
Check out my car....
http://members.cardomain.com/o4blackfire
The issue with nitrous is that in a high shot, (150+) you cannot just run a single dry nozzle to the throttle body. We would have to route a wet system with 4 nozzles, one going into each runner on the intake manifold. Plus, with that high of a shot, we would need a bottle that has to be heated and try to keep it at the same pressure for EVERY pass. Not to mention only about 3 runs per bottle with that big of a shot. Which leads to the continual hole in pocket from buying more and more nitrous.
Street-Legal 2003 Sunfire 10.58 @ 139 MPH
FReQ Z wrote:something that's streetable and will pass emissions (in all 49 important states).
As said, we know what these motors are capable of already, we don't need another race car. Also, I think you'd be surprised at the market size for something like a tubular T4 manifold.
fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.
I'm failry positive that no matter what iteration we decide on, we will make the car technically street legal. But when it is raced, we would be putting slicks on it and removing the exhaust.
Street-Legal 2003 Sunfire 10.58 @ 139 MPH
Adam Hahn wrote:GM did do option 2, but they are a massive corporation that knows their motors and management systems in and out and have the financial budget to back it all up. Heck, they are even rotating motors in their cars. We know the ECO can take power and make more. But of course the company that makes every part in the car can make any model full of power and fast, they have the parts to spare . Why not let a private company show them how it can be done with a so much less radical version?
Sounds like you minds been made up.....so why are you even asking? Not trying to be a dick, but you didn't give great reasons why you want to go with option 2 other than to get into a penis contest which doesn't help anybody in the resonably priced aftermarket performance world. just my $0.02
