Ok I'm in the planing stages right now....
Heres the goal, I'm pretay much looking to make a racecar (not drag car, auto X, road corse kinda stuff). I'm gonna be building a motor to handle alot of abuse but not all that much power. Max peak power doesn't concern me at all, I'm more concerned with the ability to make power through out the power band. The cars main purpose will be racing but it will be driven to and from events. I don't want power to hit instant, I want a nice smooh power band.
I already have a hahn stage 2 kit, I'm wondering if I should stick with the super 16G or o rgo alittle big bigger (18G)? I'm thinking the 18G may have more lag then I want but I don't know that for sure... I already have jet hot 2000 coating on the manifold, I'm thinking ceramic coating on the turbo and charge pipes may speed up spool times a bit, good idea or no? I was considering trying to track down a place to rebuild the turbo, coat it, and possibly extrude hone it as well, if the benefit is worth it for my 16G I will look into it (or again if the 18 G is a beer option?)
now some motor details...
what compression ratio? balance shafts... stock, nuetral, or delete? Cylinder head, patriot head with differnet valve train, SS valves and slightly stronger springs at the least... but stick with same sized valves or go alittle bit bigger? Would it be worth it to have a ported head? What kind of effect will a ported head / larger valves etc.. have on the power band? rods and pistons will obviously be forged... I'm thiking I'll skip on the eagle crank. I'll go through with ARP hardwear where I can, are there any bearing options other then stock for the eco yet or no? And I think the last question would be flywheel.... stock or lightweigt, chances are a Spec Stage 3 clutch would go in.
Alot of people do builds for drag racing so i have alot of questions becasue this is the road less traveled.
Edit- Cams as well, stock, or Comp turbo grind? again I don't know what effect on the power band thet will have. Overall I'd liek to make power from 2500 at the latest all the way to 7000ish. Tuning will be a proper dyno tune with HPTuners.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Tuesday, May 08, 2007 9:31 PM
Dam thats a mouth full.....IF this were MY car,... I would put the hahn kit on with the 16g for starters, get a solid tune and see how it goes for the season. Since it's smaller than the 18 or 20G You will most likely be at full boost majority of the time, since you will spend most of your time at 2500+ rpms, you should be alright.
I would also consider the head as well just to help with air flow in the higher rpms and with a lightweight flywheel you should knock down the spool time a little more with the 16G. Plus if you get to far into it you might possibly regret having all that extra power, as you will be spining the tires more often and not putting it all to the ground. Don't get me wrong though a little smoke off the tires coming out of a turn always made me smile......
But I know diddly about the hahn kit or the eco in general as I'm stubborn and want to keep my 8 valves of wonder. Just giving my .02
I'm looking forward to seeing the outcome of this post, and the looks of the guys in the sm class having to run with a beer.
-Jeff
JUCNBST wrote: I would put the hahn kit on with the 16g for starters, get a solid tune and see how it goes for the season.
with the weak ring lands I don't really want to throw the kit on without the rods and pistons at least, and if I'm doing that I'll just do the build once. I was actually considering driving with no boost, just the built motor, give it a nice N/A break in then throw on the bost.
And I knwo what you mean about geting the power to the ground, thats why I don't want a huge turbo or tons of power.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Wednesday, May 09, 2007 5:20 AM
Which 16G is it? Get the 'big' wheel EVOIII if you can. An 18G would be way too much for a FWD car that is required to turn under power.
As far as the ring lands being 'weak', not entirely true. The culprit is the end gap on the rings, which were sized for a 150hp NA motor. Open those up and you'll be safe to 300whp on stock internals, which is about as much as that turbo will put out, just keep a good tune.
For the broadest powerband keep stock cams. As far as the head, clean up the ports, and go with +1mm valves. You don't need a ton of porting with a turbo motor, especially on stock cams.
Delete the balance shafts if you feel like it.
fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.
My opinion:
1) keep the 16G, if you go big on the turbo for road racing, you will spend most of your time out of boost unless your reving the crap out of the car, then it will be jumpy and undrivable.
2) Consider the type of driving you are doing against this: If you use a lightened flywheel AND remove the balancing shafts you are reducing the spinning mass on the bottom end, this will make you car rev quickly BUT it will also cause the rpms to drop just as fast between shifts AND anytime you dont have your foot on the gas. I know a few people who kept thier stock flywheel for that reason. The car may become too jumpy for autocross typre racing.
3) Do a port and polish regardless, its a breathing mod, it will help.
4) If your not trying to throw down 20 psi of boost, buy forgrd pistons at the stock comp ratio. There is no reason to lower the compression alot just to run 10psi of boost. On top of it keeping the stock ratio will help you in the lower rpms when your not in boost. This will make the power band smoother overall at lower psi.
5)There are no resonable options for the eco yet as far as bearings, im using new stock ones.
6)You may also want to consider: If you want a flat power curve down low themn all the way to 7000, but not HUGE power, you may even want to consider the gm supercharger.
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Gameoverracing. wrote:You may also want to consider: If you want a flat power curve down low themn all the way to 7000, but not HUGE power, you may even want to consider the gm supercharger.
I second using the GM Supercharger.
I think you should Jet Coat everything hot like you were talking about. Keep the stock compression pistons. If you're not going for huge power, there's really no need to upgrade your head or cams really, I know they'll make more power over stock. It depends on what kind of power you want. Everything depends on how much power you want. The sky's the limit, but you need to decide. For 300 and below, keep the stock head and cams. 301+ LZM Triflow cams, Patriot Head, larger valves.
For road racing though, I would look into the supercharger.
I can tell you from experience that you're going to want as big and efficient of an intercooler as you can possibly fit in the car. With the smaller turbo spooling constantly you're going to get heat soak EXTREMELY fast. Bar and plate designs take a little longer to warm up than a tube and fin style does, but on the other token it takes longer to cool off than a tube and fin design does. Plus the advantage of a tube and fin is it cools more efficiently, but the bar and plate flows better.
If it were me, I'd go with a tube and fin design and possibly a cryO2 intercooler sprayer (check the rule book first for whatever class you plan to race in).
I my opinion.
I would sell the Hahn kit, and get a GM charger if your after reliability, and not HP numbers. I also would work on the suspension. Lower it, adjustable struts, strut tower braces, sway bars. Really nice WIDE tires. Light weight wheels. Gut the hell out of the car, if it is truly going to be used for racing. Lighter is always better no mater what type of racing you are doing. Remove heater, A/C, and all wiring. I mean GUT IT. I wouldn't go with a big TB, a medium one would be better. I also wouldn't go with a LARGE exhaust. A medium one would be better for a larger power band. I would keep the stock head-n-cams. I would lighten ANYTHING component, or buy lightweight components. I also would get an oil cooler for hot track days. A cooling fan override would also be good.
Keep that engine as cool as possible and it will last a long time.
Seat time is the best thing you can do.... Period.
PRND321 Till I DIE
Old Motor: 160whp & 152ft/lbs, 1/4 Mile 15.4 @88.2
M45 + LD9 + 4T40-E, GO GO GO
Power is a priority just not peak power. a linear smooth constatnt power band doesn't mean anythign if its only puting a 100whpdown. I would like 250ish whp. The car will be gutted top to bottom, basically a 2 seats partial dash frame and a shifter. Suspension I have covered, I want to switch from my Rota's to a lighter wheel, tracklites? gram lights? Kosei? I'm thinking 16's or 17's with the correct sized tires, I'll run Azeni 615's till they wear out then go to an R compound, I plan on the Willwoods up front (from what I've heard they are the most lightweight big brakes for our cars) lighter parts where I can, hood fenders, wieght reduction etc..
I thought about the GM charger but I don't know if it will make the kind of power I'm really hoping for, my other thought was I know how many people have heat soak issues on the GM charger, also the belt configuration... has someone figured out a belt to run the GM charger with the A/C delete?
I've thought about which way to go with weather the GM charger or hahn kit and my mind has been made up simply for the fact that I have the hahn kit already and it already has some extras, but I am open to differnt ideas.
heatsoak on the ecotec charger? I don't think so... intercool it with a good heat exchanger, get the dual pass plate for the intake manifold, a good pump and you will never heat soak it... also water/meth injection does wonders for the supercharger...
250 whp is easy on the charger, phlatcav had 245 whp on his car and not that much mods...
but my real advice would be to keep your hahn racecraft turbo kit, make it as reliable as you can and just up the boost a bit and there ya go 250 whp...
no sense in spending money on unnecessary parts.
14.083 @ 99.746 mph GMPP s/c intercooled on drag radials.
Gameoverracing. wrote:My opinion:
1) keep the 16G, if you go big on the turbo for road racing, you will spend most of your time out of boost unless your reving the crap out of the car, then it will be jumpy and undrivable.
2) Consider the type of driving you are doing against this: If you use a lightened flywheel AND remove the balancing shafts you are reducing the spinning mass on the bottom end, this will make you car rev quickly BUT it will also cause the rpms to drop just as fast between shifts AND anytime you dont have your foot on the gas. I know a few people who kept thier stock flywheel for that reason. The car may become too jumpy for autocross typre racing.
3) Do a port and polish regardless, its a breathing mod, it will help.
4) If your not trying to throw down 20 psi of boost, buy forgrd pistons at the stock comp ratio. There is no reason to lower the compression alot just to run 10psi of boost. On top of it keeping the stock ratio will help you in the lower rpms when your not in boost. This will make the power band smoother overall at lower psi.
5)There are no resonable options for the eco yet as far as bearings, im using new stock ones.
6)You may also want to consider: If you want a flat power curve down low themn all the way to 7000, but not HUGE power, you may even want to consider the gm supercharger.
I agree with 'almost' everything he said. The light weight flywheel and balance shaft delete (on an LD9 at least) has none of those draw backs, but all of the positives. In my case, the engine actually jumps up about 500rpm after the throttle is closed, and clutch is disingauged (like between shifts).
I love turbo's, so I say stick with the Hahn kit. From what I've seen from their kits, the turbo is matched perfect with engine size and rev range. Its not to peaky, and spools quickly. You should have no problems with it the way it is.
SPD RCR Z -
'02 Z24 420whp
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'04 GTO 305whp
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'78 Buick Opel Isuzu W41 Swap
building a car thats good at auto x and road course will be kind of hard.. the difference in cornering speeds dictates two completely different setups.
imo, a road course car would be way more fun but would cost a bit more since you'd have to build a stronger engine. auto x is slow speed, 2nd most of the time, MAYBE 3rd.. and you want a beefy midrange to help you pull through lowspeed stuff without the absolute necessity to downshift. in other words, the S/c would be your best bet
for road racing, I'd go with a medium sized turbo and stock compression. also, if you're going to be cornering hard constantly while on the throttle, a dry-sump oil setup or an accu-sump might not be a bad idea to keep the oil flowing even under a high g turn.
regardless of what you do, port the head, oversize the valves. open up whatever you can and if they make a lighter version of it put it on the car (flywheel). it will help for revmatch downshifting and heel-toe
your powerband is going to be effect most by your power adder and your cam choice.
I say go with 17" motegi traklites so you have a nice stiff sidewall, clearance for big brakes, and lightweight.
and as was said, an efficient intercooler is an absolute must. not really an issue for drag racers since all we do is basically sprint for a very short period of time.. heat is going to be a major problem when you're on it hard for a long time, pushing 150mph+ on the back straightaway
I don't need to mention suspension components since I'm sure you're well aware of whats needed for either setup.
DaFlyinSkwirl (PJ) - BPU++ wrote:building a car thats good at auto x and road course will be kind of hard.. the difference in cornering speeds dictates two completely different setups.
imo, a road course car would be way more fun but would cost a bit more since you'd have to build a stronger engine. auto x is slow speed, 2nd most of the time, MAYBE 3rd.. and you want a beefy midrange to help you pull through lowspeed stuff without the absolute necessity to downshift. in other words, the S/c would be your best bet
for road racing, I'd go with a medium sized turbo and stock compression. also, if you're going to be cornering hard constantly while on the throttle, a dry-sump oil setup or an accu-sump might not be a bad idea to keep the oil flowing even under a high g turn.
regardless of what you do, port the head, oversize the valves. open up whatever you can and if they make a lighter version of it put it on the car (flywheel). it will help for revmatch downshifting and heel-toe
your powerband is going to be effect most by your power adder and your cam choice.
I say go with 17" motegi traklites so you have a nice stiff sidewall, clearance for big brakes, and lightweight.
and as was said, an efficient intercooler is an absolute must. not really an issue for drag racers since all we do is basically sprint for a very short period of time.. heat is going to be a major problem when you're on it hard for a long time, pushing 150mph+ on the back straightaway
I don't need to mention suspension components since I'm sure you're well aware of whats needed for either setup.
Wheere are you finding proper sized 17" tracklites? I tred to find some and I couldn't. The tracklites are only 15's and 16's and the tracklite 2.0 don't come in a 17x7.5 with 5X100 pattern and a 45ish offset
btw I didn't ignore the rest of your post that just stuck out and I plan on geting the wheels soon when I figure out wht to go with.
idk whats up with motegi's site (all their traklites are listed as 16" now)
but if you check out tirerack.com or wheelstudio.com they have the motegis listed for 17"
the only problem is they're quite a bit of green, but forged and lightweight, you can't go wrong
also, tirerack has this annoying thing where they don't let you buy the wheel unles you input your car make and model, and apparently the traklites dont fit jbodies..
but chris (white 2200, black GTO that got creamed and he nows has an LS2 powered vette), Karo, and a few others have used these wheels on jbodies so they do work.
wherever you'd order them from I'd call up and order the diameter, width, and offset you want just to make absolutely sure you get the right setup
