Time to get real serious... Eco build + fuel system finish my setup! - Boost Forum

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Time to get real serious... Eco build + fuel system finish my setup!
Friday, June 15, 2007 10:57 PM
Ok I've been buyin parts geting ready for my build, I'm waiting for everythign to arive... so far I have

-Complete spare Ecotec motor out of a Sunfire with 6,000 miles on it, thats what I'm going to build.
-Eagle forged crank
-Eagle forged rods
-Wiseco Forged 10:1 compression .020 over bore pistons
-MLS head gasket
-ARP head studs

I already have
-Hahn stage 2 kit - without FMU or fuel pump, just the injectors that come with the kit
-HPtuners

thast where I'm at so far and form here I need advise.


Balance shafts.... blanks from GM or a LMZ removal kit? Pros and cons of both, what the better more long term reliable option. I want to do this right the first time and there a decent amount of money into the motor so far, I don't want something to go wrong....

Cylinder head.... stock and have it ported/polished, oversized valves but what springs/retainers? or Patriot bare head and have oversized valves put in it but again what springs/retainers? or the simple easy way, a Patriot stage 2 complete head?

Fuel system.... I don't plan on going crazzy with power levels but I'd like to know I have more then enough fuel and it wont be an issue... at least capable of flowing enough fuel to surport 300 whp. So far I have the injectors that come with the Hahn stage 2 kit... should I stick with those or go bigger? also should I just do a 255 intank pump to go with it and be done with it? should I throw in the AFPR? I heard the afpr for the f-body that fits the eco rail don't liek to see boost at all, that the diaphams are preaty fragile. What route should I go with the fuel system here?

Clutch... what clutch? Heres my dilema, I'm building a "racecar" for weekends and for occasional fun on the streets, its not a drag car by any means, its being built for auto X- road corse kinda stuff. Realistically I don't power levels any higher then 300whp in the future. Heres the problem.... racecar = 04 cav 5-speed..... daily driver is another 04 5-speed cav. I don't want to go real extreme with the clutch becasue the daily driver is staying with a stock one, I don't want to drive it stock all the time and then jump in the other car thats the exact same car and have a completely different feel and kinda have to relearn the car everytime I take it out racing. Holding power is my main concern, feeling as stock as possible is next in line.

Last thing is machine work.... obviously I want the everything disasembled and cleaned, the block .020 over, the whole forged rotating assembly balanced (should I give them a crank pulley as well for the balancing?) the flywheel balanced to the presure plate. Check everything for cracks etc (even though everything is new parts in a barely used engine) make sure the head is straight, the block is straight, honing the cylinders, measure and order bearings, check clearances (basically blue print the motor) I'm gonna have them plane the exhaust manifold mating surface, should I have them cut the relief in the flange? (small line cut threw the flange in between each cylinder). What ring gap should I run? I'm starting to look into machine shops so I want to be as detailed as possible in telling them what I want. Am I missing anythign?









There's alot going on, I'm just trying to get this all stright out and planed. When the motor itself is done I'm gonna swap it into the car and leave it N/A for probobally 1000 miles or so for a break in then throw the turbo kit on and start having fun Shoudl I break it in on convential oil instead of the normal synthetic I use?

The more info I can gather the better, any information is helpful.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Friday, June 15, 2007 10:59 PM



Re: Time to get real serious... Eco build + fuel system finish my setup!
Friday, June 15, 2007 11:43 PM
Well i read quickly...
Balance everything together if possible and as close to perfect as possible. That means clutch flywheel crank EVERYTHING... some may say its TOO extreme but hell it will make it easier to go higher. Get everything on the crank polished (on my crank im also having the oil holes chamfered)

Get the reliefs cut into the flange it will help stop warping.

Price out ALL the head options. Find a good 4 cyl shop that has lots of prior experience AND a flow bench. w/o a bench the port could end up hurting flow. not much but when your paying into the 1k mark it better damn well be worth it


My thoughts on clutch is a Stg 3+ most streetable and closest (i say this very loosely) to stock

Convential oil for the 1st 5k... thats my theory and im sticking to it. Also do a lot of HIGH load HIGH vacuum pulls on break in. it helps seat the rings better then just babying it.

(some may not agree with me but its what ive learned from the work ive done)

Also i could see your biggest challange is going to be tuning. I know HPT is out but it is limited when it comes to high revving boosted ecotecs. I know you want to rev to 9k rpms... with your setup i could see 9k coming from your car NO problem



Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Friday, June 15, 2007 11:45 PM


Re: Time to get real serious... Eco build + fuel system finish my setup!
Saturday, June 16, 2007 5:01 AM
I'm only going to comment on the clutch part. Really it does not matter what clutch you get it will be different from your other car. I have a stage 2 in my Z24. I love it, but it is soo different from my stock one. I also have a aftermarket flywheel as well, but it grabs!!!!! It has a small area (about a inch in travel), and it is in or out. Stock clutch has much more. I have driven a stage 3 before and it was about the same. I'm not saying they are hard to drive, just they are different. Good luck on the build.



FU Tuning



Re: Time to get real serious... Eco build + fuel system finish my setup!
Saturday, June 16, 2007 5:22 AM
Darkstars, first check out MSD's new fueling option it's awesome, plugs right into our stock ECU harness and can tune fuel per map value and can read up to a 4 bar map. Amazing, I am waiting for it to come out.

Secondly why did you go with 10:1 AND Boost? Just curious, I dont know any power plans, just wondering. Also good luck with that cometic, I know a lot of people who have had a problem with it, I am using the stock L61 gasket at 18 psi (well was) and it was fine, and Jazz was using the stock LSJ headgasket (on an L61) at 27psi. L61 Gasket is 2 layer MLS LSJ is 3 Layer MLS



LE61T PTE6262 Powered

Re: Time to get real serious... Eco build + fuel system finish my setup!
Saturday, June 16, 2007 9:51 AM
I think he wants to maintain power out of boost.



Re: Time to get real serious... Eco build + fuel system finish my setup!
Saturday, June 16, 2007 10:13 AM
the lemur wrote:I think he wants to maintain power out of boost.


thats what the msd does, with hpt you cant tune for out of boost as well as you could with msd

with this new msd you keep your stock drivability out of boost but it adds fuel per air... the best way to do it, meaning you set a target afr and let it go, it will adjust fuel as it needs, AND it's plug and play for ecotecs.. this will make hpt worthless



LE61T PTE6262 Powered

Re: Time to get real serious... Eco build + fuel system finish my setup!
Saturday, June 16, 2007 10:17 AM
MSD Fuel Injection Information



LE61T PTE6262 Powered

Re: Time to get real serious... Eco build + fuel system finish my setup!
Saturday, June 16, 2007 10:40 AM
QBE (The Boosted One) wrote:
the lemur wrote:I think he wants to maintain power out of boost.


thats what the msd does, with hpt you cant tune for out of boost as well as you could with msd

with this new msd you keep your stock drivability out of boost but it adds fuel per air... the best way to do it, meaning you set a target afr and let it go, it will adjust fuel as it needs, AND it's plug and play for ecotecs.. this will make hpt worthless


Worthless unless you want to tune the hundreds of other things that HPT can do and that MSD unit can not.


- 93 mph in the 1/8 mile
Member of J-Body Of Michigan.

Re: Time to get real serious... Eco build + fuel system finish my setup!
Saturday, June 16, 2007 10:44 AM
MSD can do timing, and all your fuel needs?

The only advantages I see are CEL cancellation, rev limit, speed limit, and as far as I know that may be it



LE61T PTE6262 Powered

Re: Time to get real serious... Eco build + fuel system finish my setup!
Saturday, June 16, 2007 11:08 AM
QBE (The Boosted One) wrote:
the lemur wrote:I think he wants to maintain power out of boost.


thats what the msd does, with hpt you cant tune for out of boost as well as you could with msd

with this new msd you keep your stock drivability out of boost but it adds fuel per air... the best way to do it, meaning you set a target afr and let it go, it will adjust fuel as it needs, AND it's plug and play for ecotecs.. this will make hpt worthless


I think his response was about your questioning his compression choice. Not about the MSD tuning. I personally would also go with the 10:1.



FU Tuning



Re: Time to get real serious... Eco build + fuel system finish my setup!
Saturday, June 16, 2007 11:09 AM
Oh, ok, I have 8.9:1 and turbo cams and have no problems out of boost.

But on a side note the MSD is supposed to do all that HPT does according to their tech Support, the biggest thing in my mind is tuning for 20+ psi without have to use hpt+fmu



LE61T PTE6262 Powered


Re: Time to get real serious... Eco build + fuel system finish my setup!
Saturday, June 16, 2007 2:21 PM
the biggest thing in my mind is not tuning for 20+ psi, or any tuning beyond HPTuners at this point, I apreciate the info but can we stick to the subject please.



Re: Time to get real serious... Eco build + fuel system finish my setup!
Saturday, June 16, 2007 2:37 PM
The MSN will do everything the HPT will because it's a stand alone unit, at least thats what my understanding is reading it. If the price is right it might not be a bad idea. I love that more manufacturers are noticing what the Ecotec is capable of and more products keep popping up. MSN was one of the first companies to step up and make product for us.



Re: Time to get real serious... Eco build + fuel system finish my setup!
Saturday, June 16, 2007 3:22 PM
so anyways.... again, can we get back to the subject, only only post related post so far has been a sugestion on the clutch.

if you want to contiue discusing the MSD tuning stuff do it in the tuning forum, not my engine build thread.

thanks.



Re: Time to get real serious... Eco build + fuel system finish my setup!
Saturday, June 16, 2007 3:35 PM
John Higgins wrote:
I think his response was about your questioning his compression choice. Not about the MSD tuning. I personally would also go with the 10:1.


ding ding ding

....sorry no more thread jacking....


Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Saturday, June 16, 2007 3:37 PM


Re: Time to get real serious... Eco build + fuel system finish my setup!
Saturday, June 16, 2007 4:29 PM
Sorry, I was just thinking that the MSN setup might be an option for you as well. About the clutch, have you thought about doing the dual clutch that Adam Hahn is going to run? I only suggest it because you are going to be pretty hard on your clutch shifting quite a bit and what not on the track. Just think it would hold up better, not cheap though. As far as the flywheel goes, if you get a lightened one you will rev up faster but lose some torque. What kind of tracks are you running on? Lots of straight away's or more corners than anything else. I will help as much as I can because I want to run on some street courses rather than the drag strip, getting a little old just going in a strait line.



Re: Time to get real serious... Eco build + fuel system finish my setup!
Sunday, June 17, 2007 1:23 AM
Quote:

Ok I've been buyin parts geting ready for my build, I'm waiting for everythign to arive... so far I have

-Complete spare Ecotec motor out of a Sunfire with 6,000 miles on it, thats what I'm going to build.
-Eagle forged crank
-Eagle forged rods
-Wiseco Forged 10:1 compression .020 over bore pistons
-MLS head gasket
-ARP head studs

I already have
-Hahn stage 2 kit - without FMU or fuel pump, just the injectors that come with the kit
-HPtuners


why did u go with an eagle crank? the stock one is good for like 600 hp. as far as the mls gasket, im running a oem one and it work flawless
with the hahn stage 2 kit. the super 16g maxes out at mid 300s whp.



Quote:

Balance shafts.... blanks from GM or a LMZ removal kit? Pros and cons of both, what the better more long term reliable option. I want to do this right the first time and there a decent amount of money into the motor so far, I don't want something to go wrong....


cant help there. im running stock and unmodded. if you want to spend the money, id go for it but its one of those things that youd do once everything else is and trying to make that lil extra power

Quote:

Cylinder head.... stock and have it ported/polished, oversized valves but what springs/retainers? or Patriot bare head and have oversized valves put in it but again what springs/retainers? or the simple easy way, a Patriot stage 2 complete head?


im running a stock head. shaved abit. ferrea titianium springs/retainers.


Quote:

Clutch... what clutch? Heres my dilema, I'm building a "racecar" for weekends and for occasional fun on the streets, its not a drag car by any means, its being built for auto X- road corse kinda stuff. Realistically I don't power levels any higher then 300whp in the future. Heres the problem.... racecar = 04 cav 5-speed..... daily driver is another 04 5-speed cav. I don't want to go real extreme with the clutch becasue the daily driver is staying with a stock one, I don't want to drive it stock all the time and then jump in the other car thats the exact same car and have a completely different feel and kinda have to relearn the car everytime I take it out racing. Holding power is my main concern, feeling as stock as possible is next in line.


i run the spec IV unsprung 6 puck. its damn near the same clutch feel as my buddies stock 04. only difference is it doesnt slip and you cant feather it. but pedal pressure i damn near as much as stock


http://www.myspace.com/15102113

12.5@116 2.0 60ft
Re: Time to get real serious... Eco build + fuel system finish my setup!
Sunday, June 17, 2007 5:47 AM
Yeah I think you could run astage 3 or, a stage 2, does not seem like you want a lot of power,but yet you do mods necessary for more then 500 whp?

Fuel - Just get a set of 440's, no pump needed, those will handle 300 whp, at that point, get a stage 3.

Balance Shaft - really not necessary to remove, I ran 17 psi and I dont need them out. save money

Head - I think you've got it good, patriot stage 2 period, I still disagree with cometic gasket, look at john and I stock L61gasket at 15+psi

Machine work - I think you also maybe going overboard with all the balancing and blueprinting, youre not building a 10 second race car,youre building something to have fun with, most machine shops will know right away how to build the motor right,if they are reputable,but you will pay

hope that helps, remember HPT is limited I found out the hard way.



LE61T PTE6262 Powered

Re: Time to get real serious... Eco build + fuel system finish my setup!
Sunday, June 17, 2007 8:47 AM
With the clutch the debate is stage 2+, 3, or 3+ nothign higher then a 3+

I got the crank casue it was $32x shipped to my house, its forged, chamfered oil passages, microfinished, x-ray'd and magnafluxed, no machine work required ready to drop in... can't go wrong with that, its not much more expensive then reworking the stock one. As for the the crank and balancing the rotaing assembly, I'd rather do it right and do it handle more then I will ever throw it and know its gonna be completely bullit proof for my aplication. I'll be able to run 300 whp while reving the @!#$ out of it and it the motor will take it all day long for a LONG time. I'm a fan of doing it "right" the first time. And balance shafts have nothing to do with how much PSI of boost is run through an engine.

I'll look into a set of the 440's who makes some that are dirrect replacement into the eco 04 fuel rail and head?

I know HPT is limited but, I already have it, and I payed nothing for it, for the time being thats the route I'm going.



Re: Time to get real serious... Eco build + fuel system finish my setup!
Sunday, June 17, 2007 10:01 AM
Darkstars wrote:I'll look into a set of the 440's who makes some that are dirrect replacement into the eco 04 fuel rail and head?


I have a link for a set of 60# injectors for 200ish with pigtails... FLOWMATCHED!!!!

I will post it up when i get home from work tonight



Re: Time to get real serious... Eco build + fuel system finish my setup!
Sunday, June 17, 2007 2:31 PM
Wrench Monkey wrote:
Darkstars wrote:I'll look into a set of the 440's who makes some that are dirrect replacement into the eco 04 fuel rail and head?


I have a link for a set of 60# injectors for 200ish with pigtails... FLOWMATCHED!!!!

I will post it up when i get home from work tonight


^^ Nuff Said....


Well dam, you got a hell of an engine in the making



LE61T PTE6262 Powered


Re: Time to get real serious... Eco build + fuel system finish my setup!
Sunday, June 17, 2007 3:06 PM
http://www.neweraperformanceparts.com/default.asp?S=503&A=E&PKV=ss42fm|0 with pigtails

http://www.neweraperformanceparts.com/default.asp?S=503&A=E&PKV=m60nh|0 With out pigtails


Copy and paste the links.... i cant get this @!#$ to work

Your welcome ryan


Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Sunday, June 17, 2007 3:10 PM


Re: Time to get real serious... Eco build + fuel system finish my setup!
Sunday, June 17, 2007 4:14 PM
so with the pigtails those are dirrect fit, they are the right length for the eco etc..? just install and splice in the harness?



Re: Time to get real serious... Eco build + fuel system finish my setup!
Sunday, June 17, 2007 4:33 PM
idk much about the ECO. but it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out an eagle crank would more than likely be lighter then a stock ECO's. its not JUST for strength, the lightweight of it helps out as well.

darkstars... u got one hell of a deal on that crank, WOW... props to you!

as for your balance shafts, again... delete them for the weight savings, anything that takes off rotational mass weight is going to help, and if your doing auto Xing, thats the best place to utilize the less weight spinning. you need to be able to pop up out of those corners FAST, by dropping all the weight you can, its just going to help you that much more

ive seen pics of the LZM's and they are pretty freakin nice, id say go with them.


i would also suggest just getting the patriot head fully done, just look at the skwirl for results. it would be better than having a stock one just p&p'd because they CNC machine everything. they're heads are very nice. perfect if you as me. too bad they dont have any intention of making one for us LD9 boys, which ive said over and over again is complete BS.




Re: Time to get real serious... Eco build + fuel system finish my setup!
Sunday, June 17, 2007 5:59 PM
Darkstars wrote:so with the pigtails those are dirrect fit, they are the right length for the eco etc..? just install and splice in the harness?



Just installed a set for a guy in IL (John Hawthorne) Direct fit just wired in the pigtails and bingo. That was on 03 i think S/C Ecotec . He ended up getting a bad injector and had a misfire problem but i havent talked to him about how they took care of him for it. If you want you could send me the injector harness and pigtails and i can wire them up for you, but im sure your handy with a soldering iron... Just throwing it out there for ya.

Question for ECO guys. Do the stock Eco injectors have the spacer on them from the factory? Or is that something that comes with the supercharger?

If the injector spacers come stock then your fine Ryan.



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