I've been doing some searching on Jbody....but most are using alcohol w/ GMPP Supercharger. I'm just wondering how many are using it with turbo? Is there a big advantage to it? I talked to a guy who runs alcohol inj. on his '87 Grand National. He claims he can go as high as 25psi boost on 93 octane w/ Alky and only 19psi boost on 93 octane only. Thats a 6psi difference !!
Currently, I'm on a stock motor @ 7psi but I'm thinking going 9 or 10psi with a elec. boost controller. Alcohol injection would be my liquid knock retard. If anyone has experience with this I would love to hear your input. I plan on doing my homework on this before I change anything.
The only other mod I may do is HPT tuning, just not sure if it will be with the GMPP Reflash.
lisyening..doing this as well..
Not really any point as far as I see. Your IC is doing the cooling that the alcohol would be.
I used to race cars, now I race myself.
5K PB: 24:50
10K PB: 54:26
adiabatic efficiency
turbos have it... superchargers.. not so much
thats why knock is a problem with s/c.. intake air temps are much higher than turbos
also why turbos make more power per psi than superchargers (not to mention parasitic belt loss)
turbo's don't need alky injection unless you're running high boost (read: 30psi),with a compression ratio thats too high or too low an octane fuel or both
Ecotec motors are 10:1 compression, so, 10psi is getting up there. I figured with an Alky set-up it would act as a "race fuel" with out spending $6.00 a gallon. This is what I was looking at :
Alcohol Injection Set-up-Cooling Mist
I was turboed/intercoooled and had meth/water injection... with a good tune you dont really need it, but it helps get rid of knock, raises octane if you use enough meth, and lowers your IAT's even when used with a I/C . . . . Scanning with HPT before the i/c i noticed IAT drop dramtically as soon as the injection started, and after the i/c it wasnt so much, something like 10 degrees... but, i tuned my car out of needing it because i didnt like my engine relying on an electrical pump or injecting anything but fuel into my engine
if you arent i/c'ed then DEFINITELY get water injection id say
|Forged 8.9:1 Wiseco Pistons|Forged Eagle Rods|HPTuners|60trim|Tial Wastegate|
|Precision Intercooler|2.5" Exhaust|2.5" Charge Pipes|630CC Mototron Injectors|
|Stock: Fuel Pump, Transmission, Manifold, TB, Head, Head Gasket, Ignition, Suspension...|
10PSI on 10:1 comp isn't anything. Let me know when you start enjoying to fun of 17PSI on 10:1 comp. LOL. That gets scary sometimes.
Just make a good tune, USE REAL RACE GAS, and @!#$ the meth injection. Race gas is worth it for the fact your car will toss more timing in too. Hell I use 3 gallons MAX for a whole day and I've gotten through a weekend race on 5 gallons of race gas. It's not like your filling your tank with it.
I used to race cars, now I race myself.
5K PB: 24:50
10K PB: 54:26
Team Vision Racing (aka hypsy) wrote:Not really any point as far as I see. Your IC is doing the cooling that the alcohol would be.
Not to bash you or any thing as its clear you know your stuff ... But alcohol will help a turbo or a supercharger with or with out an intercooler... Just if you run with an intercooler you will want to spray it in after the IC does its stuff...
It will not only lower intake temps even more going into the engine but the higher the alcohol level your spraying the more your octane will raise..
slvr05cav you said you talked to a guy with a Grand National about it, thats where i got my idea from (my old man) he runs 30psi of boost on a stock GNX engine with 94octane gas and pure methonal injected in and he said even with his huge intercooler he still droped lots with adding alcohol.. And i believe max boost he could go before was like 20-21psi before he would get huge knock... and now @ 30psi he gets no knock at all
The First Twin Charged jbody
blue car (R.I.P) - 240whp @7psi..
silver car - 305whp 315lbs.tq @15psi (91 Octane) or 420whp & 425lbs.TQ @20psi (94 octane+Alcohol Injection)
All dynos run on a Mustang dyno
I realize some people are running in excess of 12psi with a stock bottom-end. The reality of it is, that your driving a time bomb, everytime you're in it. I know there are other alternatives, but I figured this would be effective and not as costly. My objective is to have a reliable, long lasting, everyday driver. But, still take it to the track and run those $35,000+ 350z, Lancers, Subaru, and SRT4s down!!
slvr05cav wrote:I realize some people are running in excess of 12psi with a stock bottom-end. The reality of it is, that your driving a time bomb, everytime you're in it. I know there are other alternatives, but I figured this would be effective and not as costly. My objective is to have a reliable, long lasting, everyday driver. But, still take it to the track and run those $35,000+ 350z, Lancers, Subaru, and SRT4s down!!
id say Alcohol would be a good safty to use then... im doing the same... running alky and going to 9 maybe 10psi at most (depending on the hp im making too) and just run alcohol constantly.. so that i dont get any knock or any thing.. plus it will steam clean your internals
so if you ever had to work on them you got clean ones to work with lol
The First Twin Charged jbody
blue car (R.I.P) - 240whp @7psi..
silver car - 305whp 315lbs.tq @15psi (91 Octane) or 420whp & 425lbs.TQ @20psi (94 octane+Alcohol Injection)
All dynos run on a Mustang dyno
alky is a great way to help prevent detonation at higher boost levels and still let u run pump fuel. buddy of mine has an evo wtih an fp green turbo, 28psi, and 91 octane. using a snow performance meth kit.
only advice is make sure you have your alky tank full.... dont want it shutting off in the middle of a pull...
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12.5@116 2.0 60ft
slvr05cav wrote:I realize some people are running in excess of 12psi with a stock bottom-end. The reality of it is, that your driving a time bomb, everytime you're in it. I know there are other alternatives, but I figured this would be effective and not as costly. My objective is to have a reliable, long lasting, everyday driver. But, still take it to the track and run those $35,000+ 350z, Lancers, Subaru, and SRT4s down!!
invest in forged rods and pistons.
alky injection on a >500whp car is kind of embarassing... just seems like a "last resort" kind of step used way too early in the game.
idk to me alky injection is a band-aid for other issues.
if you want the car reliable and bullet proof, drop in forged rods and pistons, drop compression and call it a day.
I don't see how preventing knock by using alky injection is a band aid fix. I think it would be a good idea for the original poster to use it.
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DaFlyinSkwirl (PJ) - BPU++ wrote: invest in forged rods and pistons.
alky injection on a >500whp car is kind of embarassing... just seems like a "last resort" kind of step used way too early in the game.
idk to me alky injection is a band-aid for other issues.
if you want the car reliable and bullet proof, drop in forged rods and pistons, drop compression and call it a day.
sorry but you could not be any more wrong with that... a Band Aid fix?? how is cooling the intake temps more then just an intercooler would a band aid fix? and getting more power with less boost??
one example i can think of is my car vs my buddies car both tuned by the same guy, both 2.4L engines (pretty close to the same mileage on them too), mine being the turbo+supercharged and his just turbo which should still be the same power or close to with the same psi.. and i dynoed 20whp more then he did at the same boost level with slightly cooler intake temps then he had as i am running alky injection and he isn't. band aid fix? or just a smart mod? i just have mine coming on at close to my peak boost level so its not used until i step into the gas
The First Twin Charged jbody
blue car (R.I.P) - 240whp @7psi..
silver car - 305whp 315lbs.tq @15psi (91 Octane) or 420whp & 425lbs.TQ @20psi (94 octane+Alcohol Injection)
All dynos run on a Mustang dyno
I would say do the alcohol injection. It does help cool intake temperatures a lot and it will reduce the chance of knock. The only thing i say is don't use it just so you can turn up your boost at the track because that can be a sure way to make a motor go BOOM! Use it as a cooling aid and you will see a difference in power. They do make variable stage alky injection systems, it will turn on at certain psi/rpm levels that you set it to. Modififed Magazine did a test on an EVO 8 about 11/2 years back and they car had basic bolt ons and picked up some 30 HP at the wheels because of the cooler intake charge from the alky injection.
jd soza wrote:I would say do the alcohol injection. It does help cool intake temperatures a lot and it will reduce the chance of knock. The only thing i say is don't use it just so you can turn up your boost at the track because that can be a sure way to make a motor go BOOM! Use it as a cooling aid and you will see a difference in power. They do make variable stage alky injection systems, it will turn on at certain psi/rpm levels that you set it to. Modififed Magazine did a test on an EVO 8 about 11/2 years back and they car had basic bolt ons and picked up some 30 HP at the wheels because of the cooler intake charge from the alky injection.
yea exactly what he said... tune your car to a safe boost level with out using alcohol so that you could technically get away with out spraying if you had to and then add in the alcohol and tune for the slight raise in power with the cooler temps but keep your boost the same as before.. You will be able to bring your timing up and such with spray so you wouldnt be able to run it all out if you werent spraying but you could still drive it fairly hard, and most kits have a low level sensor and such.
The First Twin Charged jbody
blue car (R.I.P) - 240whp @7psi..
silver car - 305whp 315lbs.tq @15psi (91 Octane) or 420whp & 425lbs.TQ @20psi (94 octane+Alcohol Injection)
All dynos run on a Mustang dyno
What I want to do is run 6psi of max boost on the street. Then when I go to the track turn it up to 10psi with Alky injection. This way I'll use it only when I race at the drag strip. A electronic boost controller will be used to up boost.
This is the kit I may go with :
Cooling Mist
Josh F wrote:DaFlyinSkwirl (PJ) - BPU++ wrote: invest in forged rods and pistons.
alky injection on a >500whp car is kind of embarassing... just seems like a "last resort" kind of step used way too early in the game.
idk to me alky injection is a band-aid for other issues.
if you want the car reliable and bullet proof, drop in forged rods and pistons, drop compression and call it a day.
sorry but you could not be any more wrong with that... a Band Aid fix?? how is cooling the intake temps more then just an intercooler would a band aid fix? and getting more power with less boost??
one example i can think of is my car vs my buddies car both tuned by the same guy, both 2.4L engines (pretty close to the same mileage on them too), mine being the turbo+supercharged and his just turbo which should still be the same power or close to with the same psi.. and i dynoed 20whp more then he did at the same boost level with slightly cooler intake temps then he had as i am running alky injection and he isn't. band aid fix? or just a smart mod? i just have mine coming on at close to my peak boost level so its not used until i step into the gas
I see what PJ is saying. Why not throw in some pistons and rods and be able to boost it as much as you want whenever you want? I do understand the alky purpse and advantages, but the way slvrcav is talking about is as a way to increase boost potential which would be a band-aid/crutch, not just to cool air temps at his current boost level. In my opinion, if you have the time, put some pistons and rods in it. That way you are safe to pretty much any reasonable boost level and its fun to work on cars and learn through doing. But with the right tune and right fuel regardless of alky or not, the Ecotec has been proven to take 10 PSI with no problems.
Street-Legal 2003 Sunfire 10.58 @ 139 MPH
