So this kid is gonna trade me a Eclipse turbo, BOV, a wastegate, and some other @!#$ for my system. (Not a real fancy system.) And I'm wondering how hard would it be to put that in my Sunfire? The only thing I can think of that would kinda screw me over is the manifold.
As long as you have a manifold that supports the turbo you should be fine... we do offer a manifold with the TD05 flange (mitsu flange)
That works out then, I was just worried about having to get a custom header made up.
mitsu turbos are a very common turbo. the only thing you need to be concerened about is what turbo it is. some of the mitsu ones from an eclipse can be pretty small and can spool up VERY quickly. thats not always something desirable though... find out what turbo it is and do the calculations or use a calculator to place your motor on the compressor map for that turbo.
1997 Cavalier Z24
Bomz Short Ram Intake
Vibrant Cat-Back
KYB GR2 Struts
Goldline 1.75" Springs
RK Sport Upper Insert
RK Sport Lower Dogbone
Custom Tune by Shane @
innovativetuning@rogers.com
15.647 @ 88.02 MPH
A quicker spool is almost desired. The only thing to watch out for is the wastegate pressure on a mitsu turbo which is normally about 11psi which is higher than a basic setup should ever be running.
see, myself i wouldnt want a quicker spool. i drive my car every day, and to be building boost at 2200 rpm is pointless for me. i would still like to be able to cruise on the highway and city streets and not be building boost. having the car build boost somewhere in the 3000 to 3500 rpm range is what i would want, and any mitsu smaller than a big 16G would probably spool to early for me.
1997 Cavalier Z24
Bomz Short Ram Intake
Vibrant Cat-Back
KYB GR2 Struts
Goldline 1.75" Springs
RK Sport Upper Insert
RK Sport Lower Dogbone
Custom Tune by Shane @
innovativetuning@rogers.com
15.647 @ 88.02 MPH
Then don't turbocharge it.
I'd have to agree with spool being an issue on a cavalier (fwd). Also with most quick spooling turbos you give up some efficency and produce more heat. You might want to find out if it is a 14b or t25. A 14b would be better if you are gonna use a mitsu turbo. Hahn makes a t3 bolt on turbine housing with sizes ranging from 10cm up but a 10cm would be good on a ecotec. I think I have a 10cm housing laying around somewhere. Also a 14b can be upgraded to a 16g or big 16g and if you have the money a (sleeper) 20g. A 20g flows enough air for around 450whp.
The second thing I would be concerned about is if it's a 1g or 2g bov. The 2g bovs have been know to leak at around 12 to 13psi. Boost is a drug so never say you wont run 12psi. And if the side mount intercooler is included, ditch it. I've heat soaked a factory side mount on numerous occations. Eclipse/Talon items are easly upgraded on the plus side but on the downside can be had for little money. Figure out how much the system is worth and go from there.
i dont have "quick" spool. nor do i want it. i am at full boost at about 2750. gives me time to putt around and FEEL it kick into boost. i love where mine is at and wouldnt want full boost at 2000rpm if thats where it were to spool at.
Agreed, I'm fully spooled around 2800-2900RPM, its nice. Not many people believe that I get 32mpg after turbo, but I have the charts to prove it
" To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous. "
Robert Harkins wrote:I'd have to agree with spool being an issue on a cavalier (fwd). Also with most quick spooling turbos you give up some efficency and produce more heat. You might want to find out if it is a 14b or t25. A 14b would be better if you are gonna use a mitsu turbo. Hahn makes a t3 bolt on turbine housing with sizes ranging from 10cm up but a 10cm would be good on a ecotec. I think I have a 10cm housing laying around somewhere. Also a 14b can be upgraded to a 16g or big 16g and if you have the money a (sleeper) 20g. A 20g flows enough air for around 450whp.
The second thing I would be concerned about is if it's a 1g or 2g bov. The 2g bovs have been know to leak at around 12 to 13psi. Boost is a drug so never say you wont run 12psi. And if the side mount intercooler is included, ditch it. I've heat soaked a factory side mount on numerous occations. Eclipse/Talon items are easly upgraded on the plus side but on the downside can be had for little money. Figure out how much the system is worth and go from there.
You want your turbo hot though, you'll make more power. And the spooling issue can go either way, a quicker spool is gonna give you more power right away but traction could be an issue. And for the slower spooling turbo you don't have the power as quick, but your not worrying about traction plus if your turbo takes longer spool in most cases its going to make a lot more power and boost.
Around 2800 is pretty normal for a full spool up on a mitsu turbo, and was about the rpm range i was suggesting would be a quick spool. Ive seen setups that dont full boost til over 4000!
Vulcan Turbo, LLC wrote:Around 2800 is pretty normal for a full spool up on a mitsu turbo, and was about the rpm range i was suggesting would be a quick spool. Ive seen setups that dont full boost til over 4000!
Do you guys offer any cheaper manifolds?
Unfortunately no. I dont feel its worth it to offer a lesser quality product that will just fail over time.
Vulcan Turbo, LLC wrote:Unfortunately no. I dont feel its worth it to offer a lesser quality product that will just fail over time.
I would agree with that, and with materials costs skyrocketing, pieces like this are going to only get more expensive until the market and steel costs stabalize.
Luckily it appears the steel market is leveling out... but the cost of metal is still 3-4 times more than it was just a few years ago, i doubt the prices would go back down.
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You want your turbo hot though, you'll make more power.
Can you explain your way of thinking or point me to were you found this information. Considering alot of turbos are water cooled to cool the chra temp down for a few reasons ... your statement confuses me. Wouldn't that also cause a less dense air charge resulting in hp loss and raising the possibilty for detonation. Unless you are referring to keeping the heat in the manifold, thus keeping the kinetic energy high for a reduction in spool time.
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And the spooling issue can go either way, a quicker spool is gonna give you more power right away but traction could be an issue. And for the slower spooling turbo you don't have the power as quick, but your not worrying about traction plus if your turbo takes longer spool in most cases its going to make a lot more power and boost.
I agree with traction being an issue on quick spooling turbos as I stated before. There are way to many determining factors when referring to spool and power. Everything from compressor wheel design, compressor housing, turbine housing size, twin scroll, map width enhancement, ball bearing, variable geometry, and several other things. An hx35 (holset turbo) with a 12cm hot side has the spool characteristics of a small 16g (3200rpms on a 2 liter motor) but more top end than a 20g or 50trim. They flow enough air for around 520whp. I also can provide logs and charts on any of this information if you think it would be benifical in your choice of turbos or just for general information.
Robert Harkins wrote:Quote:
You want your turbo hot though, you'll make more power.
Can you explain your way of thinking or point me to were you found this information. Considering alot of turbos are water cooled to cool the chra temp down for a few reasons ... your statement confuses me. Wouldn't that also cause a less dense air charge resulting in hp loss and raising the possibilty for detonation. Unless you are referring to keeping the heat in the manifold, thus keeping the kinetic energy high for a reduction in spool time.
Quote:
And the spooling issue can go either way, a quicker spool is gonna give you more power right away but traction could be an issue. And for the slower spooling turbo you don't have the power as quick, but your not worrying about traction plus if your turbo takes longer spool in most cases its going to make a lot more power and boost.
I agree with traction being an issue on quick spooling turbos as I stated before. There are way to many determining factors when referring to spool and power. Everything from compressor wheel design, compressor housing, turbine housing size, twin scroll, map width enhancement, ball bearing, variable geometry, and several other things. An hx35 (holset turbo) with a 12cm hot side has the spool characteristics of a small 16g (3200rpms on a 2 liter motor) but more top end than a 20g or 50trim. They flow enough air for around 520whp. I also can provide logs and charts on any of this information if you think it would be benifical in your choice of turbos or just for general information.
I heard it from a engineer at GM Powertrain. Are you gonna argue against that?
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I heard it from a engineer at GM Powertrain. Are you gonna argue against that?
Yes, I have stated the obvious. You provide nothing but hear say. I have been wrong before and slightly enjoy being wrong because for me it is learning that I enjoy.
Just to let you know I am not trying to argue if it has come across this way. All I am trying to do is show that there are many determining factors and state the facts. I have owned 4 eclipse turbos and currently own 3. Over the past 6 years or so I have learned a decent amount in this area of the auto world but still have far to go. Being that I have owned a turbo vehicle, I have gone through many things including my share of turbos. What is wrong with passing the information on if it differs from what you have heard and are just getting into turbos/turboing?
I'm not trying to argure either, but I'm gonna take his word over yours just because of who he is. I've met him, and I've been to GM's Sport Compact Powertrain also.
As far as me just getting into turbo's, I guess you could kind of say that. Since I'm only 19, and this would be MY first turbo'd vehicle. But I have been around turbo's, my old man a Eco swapped S10 Xtreme. (Which is street legal and runs 10's.)
Aaron Booms wrote:Robert Harkins wrote:I'd have to agree with spool being an issue on a cavalier (fwd). Also with most quick spooling turbos you give up some efficency and produce more heat. You might want to find out if it is a 14b or t25. A 14b would be better if you are gonna use a mitsu turbo. Hahn makes a t3 bolt on turbine housing with sizes ranging from 10cm up but a 10cm would be good on a ecotec. I think I have a 10cm housing laying around somewhere. Also a 14b can be upgraded to a 16g or big 16g and if you have the money a (sleeper) 20g. A 20g flows enough air for around 450whp.
The second thing I would be concerned about is if it's a 1g or 2g bov. The 2g bovs have been know to leak at around 12 to 13psi. Boost is a drug so never say you wont run 12psi. And if the side mount intercooler is included, ditch it. I've heat soaked a factory side mount on numerous occations. Eclipse/Talon items are easly upgraded on the plus side but on the downside can be had for little money. Figure out how much the system is worth and go from there.
You want your turbo hot though, you'll make more power. And the spooling issue can go either way, a quicker spool is gonna give you more power right away but traction could be an issue. And for the slower spooling turbo you don't have the power as quick, but your not worrying about traction plus if your turbo takes longer spool in most cases its going to make a lot more power and boost.
This is how it works... Turbocharging is all about thermal management. I suppose you could say you want your turbo to be 'hot', but there's a lot more to it than that. Increasing temperature at the turbo can cause millions of headaches, from increasing your IATs by significant amounts, leading to detonation, to the potential of coking the oil in the turbo and essentially ruining the turbo itself. The goal is to
minimize heat loss throughout the system. By keeping the heat inside of the manifold, turbo and downpipe, you are maximizing the kinetic energy in the exhaust gases instead of having thermal losses. You will spool more quickly, attain boost faster, and ideally make more power. This may seem like it goes hand in hand with your desire to keep your turbo 'hot', but it doesn't mean that the higher the temperature of the turbo, the more power you will make. As you increase temperature of the turbo, you will need to use a larger intercooler, even higher octane fuel than you normally would, you have to be more aware of rubber hoses and other heat sensitive equipment under the hood. Not to mention, you're going to see very degraded engine lifespan.
I can appreciate that you want to listen to the GM tech you speak of, and I'm sure he knows what you're doing, but it seems like he did not give you the full story and you don't fully understand yet. Being headstrong is not going to hurt someone's feelings on a post here, but it sure might hurt your engine
I suggest that you pick up a few turbocharging books, namely Corky Bell's "Maximum Boost" if you want to learn more.
Good luck!
" To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous. "
Quote:
This is how it works... Turbocharging is all about thermal management. I suppose you could say you want your turbo to be 'hot', but there's a lot more to it than that. Increasing temperature at the turbo can cause millions of headaches, from increasing your IATs by significant amounts, leading to detonation, to the potential of coking the oil in the turbo and essentially ruining the turbo itself. The goal is to minimize heat loss throughout the system. By keeping the heat inside of the manifold, turbo and downpipe, you are maximizing the kinetic energy in the exhaust gases instead of having thermal losses. You will spool more quickly, attain boost faster, and ideally make more power. This may seem like it goes hand in hand with your desire to keep your turbo 'hot', but it doesn't mean that the higher the temperature of the turbo, the more power you will make. As you increase temperature of the turbo, you will need to use a larger intercooler, even higher octane fuel than you normally would, you have to be more aware of rubber hoses and other heat sensitive equipment under the hood. Not to mention, you're going to see very degraded engine lifespan.
I can appreciate that you want to listen to the GM tech you speak of, and I'm sure he knows what you're doing, but it seems like he did not give you the full story and you don't fully understand yet. Being headstrong is not going to hurt someone's feelings on a post here, but it sure might hurt your engine
I suggest that you pick up a few turbocharging books, namely Corky Bell's "Maximum Boost" if you want to learn more.
Good luck!
A better and extend summary of what I said in my second post. Corky bell's book is awesome and covers everything you would need to know. Even has a brief write up on blow through carb set ups. I'm currently reading it for my second time. I have can't remember crap syndrome.
Stock waste gate on a 14b (stock first gen DSM/eclipse turbo) opens at ~8 PSI. You'd need a boost controller to raise the boost, but you can't go any lower then 8. But with an exhaust any larger then 2.5 inch your gonna creep to like 15-18 psi, rendering the stock waste gate uselss if you want to run low boost.
1990 Eclipse GSX
Dave Dunsmoor wrote:Agreed, I'm fully spooled around 2800-2900RPM, its nice. Not many people believe that I get 32mpg after turbo, but I have the charts to prove it
sheeet i am fully spooled at 37-3800 rpms
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