with the proper computer tuning, adding more fuel, and more oxygen can increase horsepower and allow more torque, has anyone done this before? or know of anyone doing this? my first time doing a custom boost, looking for any hints or suggestions
Are you talking about hooking up an oxygen tank that people use to breathe?
sort of, like using it like a nitrous system, but instead of using nitrous oxide, using pure oxygen
yeah, it would be dangerous, but it would allow me to put more fuel into it without making a rich mixture. it would burn evenly even though i could double the amount of fuel put into it.
Mike Oag wrote:ybut it would allow me to put more fuel into it without making a rich mixture.
How do you figure? You can add as much nitrous as want, so how can you add more gas only its oxygen? If you want to add more gas add more nitrous... your engine will fail long before you reach the point of not being able to add enough nitrous to keep up with the fuel. There is a reason noone has done this. besides being extremely dangerous pure oxygen is extremely extremely volotile, I'm willing to put you would grenade your engine in a huge firery explosion before you'd be able to come up with some good results.
lol i have done it ..... leave it to me to try this stuff.
I actually worked at an oxygen generating facility and hooked it up to a dodge dakota.
It made the exhaust smell much cleaner, but I doubt it would be worth the cost of opperation.
We didnt use it long enough to see any improvements in HP or gas mileage.
We used a whole tank filled with 2500 psi in about 1/2 hr.
yeah, i dunno. as long as it wont blow out my engine, i will try it out, see what i can do with it. was the compressed oxygen liquid?
Rich Grayo Jr. wrote:why? oxygen is flammable, N20 isn't. sounds more of a hazard than being worth it.
Actually, neither are flammable, per se. Both are oxidizers, necessary to promote complete combustion of fuels.
Fact is, Oxygen Injection predates Nitrous Oxide. German Luftwaffe planes experimented with it in WWII for improving rate of climb. They met with moderate success, but a lot of hurt engines too. In its rare form, pure oxygen is a very unstable gas, and does not distribute itself well in an internal-combustion engine environment. However, tie that oxygen molecule to two nitrogen molecules, and bingo! Very stable, and easy to handle now, with usable boiling points and a much more tame. So it was that Nitrous Oxide (N20) was born into high-performance use. Those crazy Germans! We can also thank them for jets and rockets...
Bill Hahn Jr.
Hahn RaceCraft
World's Quickest and Fastest Street J-Bodies
Turbocharging GM FWD's since 1988
www.turbosystem.com
so the only real advandtadge to nitrous is more stability? and does 02 pure give more advandtadge in the fact that there is more of it, allowing more fuel to be mixed in?
Yes, but this advantage of greater stability is extremely significant. Pure oxygen not only has different characteristics in your engine, it's also a damned dangerous thing to have on a vehicle that relies on combustion. Should you have a malfunction, and you spray pure oxygen into the engine compartment, the ability of already heated-items to burst into flames is amazing. Bear in mind, our atmosphere, which feeds fires quite fine thank you, is only 21% oxygen. If the oxygen content here on earth were increased to 30%, parts of this planet could spontaneously erupt in flames. Now imagine how powerful 100% oxygen is!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Sunday, December 06, 2009 7:43 AM
Bill Hahn Jr.
Hahn RaceCraft
World's Quickest and Fastest Street J-Bodies
Turbocharging GM FWD's since 1988
www.turbosystem.com
yeah, seems dangerous to play with, especially risking my daily driving car. thanks
Quote:
so the only real advandtadge to nitrous is more stability? and does 02 pure give more advandtadge in the fact that there is more of it, allowing more fuel to be mixed in?
From
http://www.nitrous.info/how-nitrous-works.htm:
Quote:
So Why Not Pure Oxygen?
Air has only 21% Oxygen, the rest is made up largely of inert Nitrogen. That nitrogen does not aid in combustion at all, but it does absorb energy, expand and carry heat away. When you add Nitrous, it has 36% oxygen with the rest being Nitrogen once the heat of combustion has broken it down. So the more Nitrous Oxide you add, the less percentage of Nitrogen is available to absorb heat. That is why Nitrous increases engine heat very rapidly. If we were to add pure oxygen (which has been tried), the percentage of Nitrogen would fall much faster as more Oxygen was added.
We would not be able to add much Oxygen before heat was a real problem to control. Also compressed Oxygen is in a gaseous form, so adding oxygen takes up more room in the intake system and reduces normally aspirated power, and the amount of Nitrogen from it. By injecting liquid Nitrous, the normally aspirated power only drops slightly and in some cases it increases due to cooling and contraction and it is adding oxygen and Nitrogen at the same time. To put it simply, with nitrous oxide, we can get more Oxygen atoms in the engine and have a lot more Nitrogen as well. Nitrous can make much more power before heat is uncontrollable. And it can be stored as a liquid in pressurised tanks where Oxygen cannot.
There's no danger in having pure oxygen gas under the hood of a car. If we remember the fire triangle from middle school science class, combustion requires three elements: Fuel, Heat and Oxygen. There's certainly heat under the hood, and there is oxygen. If your engine bay doesn't already burst into flames, throwing more oxygen into the mix won't make it happen either.
As for parts of the world spontaneously bursting into flames under a higher concentration of oxygen, I don't buy it. More oxygen just accelerates combustion where it's already present. Heat, Fuel, Oxygen. You need all three. A lit cigarette under pure oxygen will burn faster, however, a butane lighter will not. The cigarette's burn rate is partially controlled by its exposure to oxygen, which is why when you inhale, it glows hotter. Increase the oxygen and it will burn faster. The fuel delivery rate on a butane lighter is fixed, so no matter how oxygen rich the environment is, granted the flame wasn't previously starving, the burn rate remains constant.
2002 Cavalier 2200 5spd
well...hehe...reading your post, one might think I just make things like this up, and just hope people will "buy it". Of course, this is not the case. Allow me to debunk your attempt at debunking!
Oxygen-rich environments are extreme fire hazards. Of course, as you mention, most materials considered non-flammable cannot form fuel for a fire in our atmosphere. However, with pure oxygen present, even metals can burn! Known flammable materials are much more likely to combust if additional oxygen is introduced. There are many flammable items under the hood that can react to this. Additionally, should pure oxygen be present any time a fire erupts for any other reason, one has the recipe for major conflagration.
The planet's surface is coated with combustible materials. Even the soil is combustible in an oxygen-rich environment.
Let's take some excerpts from this
Leaflet Published by the British Goverment:
Oxygen behaves differently to air, compressed air, nitrogen and other inert gases. It
is very reactive.
Pure oxygen, at high pressure, such as from a cylinder, can react
violently with common materials such as oil and grease. Other materials may catch
fire spontaneously.
Nearly all materials including textiles, rubber and even metals
will burn vigorously in oxygen.
Even a small increase in the oxygen level in the air to 24% can create a dangerous
situation. It becomes easier to start a fire, which will then burn hotter and more
fiercely than in normal air. It may be almost impossible to put the fire out.
A leaking
valve or hose in a poorly ventilated room or confined space can quickly increase
the oxygen concentration to a dangerous level.
Oxygen can react explosively with oils and
greases. People have been injured or even killed when pumps, engines, tyres and
pressure equipment have been blown apart by the explosion. Oxygen can also
cause other materials to ignite spontaneously.
Bill Hahn Jr.
Hahn RaceCraft
World's Quickest and Fastest Street J-Bodies
Turbocharging GM FWD's since 1988
www.turbosystem.com
^^
He’s right.
We hooked up Liquid 02 once. Like Liquid N2O,
It sent a half a rod and half a piston through the oil pan, and we had to pry it out of the concrete.
But for the 28 seconds it ran, it mad 320 Hp at the wheels.
(99 2.2 S-10, stock)
This was with standard 100 shot jet and N2O kit, but with a O2 tank upside down.
Would not do it…. Oxidizers are not fun, and can realllly make a mess.
Take Haz-Mat some time.... you'll see.
Chris
'02 Z-24 Supercharged
13.7 @102.45 MPH Third Place, 2007 GMSC Bash SOLD AS OF 01MAR08
A few things...
Quote:
Pure oxygen, at high pressure, such as from a cylinder, can react
violently with common materials such as oil and grease.
Once O2 leaves the cylinder, it's no longer at high pressure.
Quote:
Other materials may catch fire spontaneously.
Things might catch fire without a known reason, but I find it hard to believe no heat sources are involved.
Quote:
Nearly all materials including textiles, rubber and even metals
will burn vigorously in oxygen.
That's true even in air. Sodium, magnesium, potassium and other metals burn violently in plain air.
Quote:
It becomes easier to start a fire, which will then burn hotter and more
fiercely than in normal air.
Again, I find it hard to believe even in pure oxygen, that things burn without a source of heat. An article of clothing saturated in O2 will go up in flames if a cigarette ember lands on it, but this is hardly spontaneous.
Agreed, but there must be a source of heat to initiate combustion.
Quote:
Oxygen can also cause other materials to ignite spontaneously.
2002 Cavalier 2200 5spd
Solid Snake wrote:
Quote:
Pure oxygen, at high pressure, such as from a cylinder, can react
violently with common materials such as oil and grease.
Once O2 leaves the cylinder, it's no longer at high pressure.
LOL, of course it's not! It's the amazing Velocity and Volume, along with the high oxygen concentration, that a High Pressure Cylinder can create...this is what makes the potential reaction so much more dangerous.
Solid Snake wrote:Quote:
Other materials may catch fire spontaneously.
Things might catch fire without a known reason, but I find it hard to believe no heat sources are involved.
You may find some new info hard to believe, but it's only because you've never learned what I am presenting here for yours, and everyone else's, safety. You may wish to study this subject in more detail before you allow what you "believe" to trump new, established information you can "learn" from an expert.
Solid Snake wrote:Quote:
Nearly all materials including textiles, rubber and even metals
will burn vigorously in oxygen.
That's true even in air. Sodium, magnesium, potassium and other metals burn violently in plain air.
Yep. And Pure Oxygen can cause ignition in metals would not burn in mere air alone.
Solid Snake wrote:Quote:
It becomes easier to start a fire, which will then burn hotter and more
fiercely than in normal air.
Again, I find it hard to believe even in pure oxygen, that things burn without a source of heat. An article of clothing saturated in O2 will go up in flames if a cigarette ember lands on it, but this is hardly spontaneous.
You may also need to learn up on this point as well. You appear to be laboring under a misconception that every fire requires a spark or a source of heat. I suggest that in addition to reading the link I provided, you also study "spontaneous combustion" (no, it's not just about people bursting into flames!).
Solid Snake wrote:
Quote:
Oxygen can also cause other materials to ignite spontaneously.
Agreed, but there must be a source of heat to initiate combustion.
Not always true. However, with an engine operating at exhaust temperatures in excess of 1500 degrees F, and an engine compartment full of hot and/or pressurized flammable fluids and gases, the already dangerous ability of oxygen to cause fires is greatly enhanced. That's really the gist of all this...pure oxygen in an environment of already heated materials, possible sparks and flames from ignition and exhaust, and flammable liquids is a complete recipe for DISASTER. No matter what you may believe, this is a fact.
Here's an example of one of the most horrible events of an oxygen-rich environment causing the death of very valued personnel:
Apollo 1 Launchpad Disaster
An excerpt from the above:
Although the ignition source of the fire was never conclusively identified, the astronauts' deaths were attributed to a wide range of lethal design hazards in the early Apollo command module. Among these were the use of a high-pressure 100 percent-oxygen atmosphere for the test, wiring and plumbing flaws, flammable materials in the cockpit (such as Velcro), an inward-opening hatch that would not open in this kind of an emergency, and the flight suits worn by the astronauts.
Here's a quick primer on how Spontaneous Combustion works, and in it you will find instances of items combusting without a source of ignition:
Spontaneous Combustion
A key excerpt:
How spontaneous combustion occurs:
1. A substance with a relatively low ignition temperature begins to release heat, which may occur in several ways, such as oxidation or fermentation.
2. The heat is unable to escape, and the temperature of the material rises
3. The temperature of the material rises above its ignition point
4. Combustion begins if a sufficiently strong oxidizer, such as oxygen, is present.
Bill Hahn Jr.
Hahn RaceCraft
World's Quickest and Fastest Street J-Bodies
Turbocharging GM FWD's since 1988
www.turbosystem.com
A very effective "everyman demonstration" just occurred to me: the good old
Oxy Acetylene heating/cutting torch:
As any mechanic knows who's handled one, the acetylene on its own burns sooty. Add a small amount of pure oxygen, and that sooty, cold flame becomes a blue point hot enough to turn 1/4" thick steel red. Then, pull the trigger to cut, and watch what the same amount of acetylene does when a mere 40 PSI of oxygen is added. That flame will now incinerate the metal, cutting right through it with ease.
So, an excellent depiction of how different degrees of oxygen react, with the same amount of fuel. We have a cold flame with no additional oxygen, hot flame with just a bit more oxygen, voracious cutting flame with 40 PSI of oxygen.
Now imagine what 1000 PSI of oxygen might do...
Bill Hahn Jr.
Hahn RaceCraft
World's Quickest and Fastest Street J-Bodies
Turbocharging GM FWD's since 1988
www.turbosystem.com
Quote:
1. A substance with a relatively low ignition temperature begins to release heat, which may occur in several ways, such as oxidation or fermentation.
2. The heat is unable to escape, and the temperature of the material rises
3. The temperature of the material rises above its ignition point
4. Combustion begins if a sufficiently strong oxidizer, such as oxygen, is present.
I think we're disagreeing on the definition of "spontaneous". It might appear "spontaneous" to a casual observer because the source of heat isn't always external, but heat, fuel and oxygen is present in every case.
2002 Cavalier 2200 5spd
You may disagree with the definition of spontaneous, but it's clear to me, and also to the experts in such matters whose reference materials I've cited in this thread. It's really just a tangent anyway, for beyond pure oxygen's inarguable ability to cause spontaneous ignition in some materials, the point remains:
The possibilities for a hugely powerful oxidizer like pure pressurized oxygen to cause a dangerous flammable condition under the hood of a car are dangerous beyond reason, for not only are highly flammable materials quite present, so are possible sources of extreme heat and spark.
Further evidence to support this conclusion are offered in detail in this thread. Pure oxygen use in dangerous environments is a well-known risk, not at all subject to opinion or a lack of knowledge.
By the way..have you ever used an oxy-acetylene torch for cutting up metal? Just curious if you've experienced the power of pure oxygen first-hand...
Edited 4 time(s). Last edited Tuesday, December 08, 2009 3:36 PM
Bill Hahn Jr.
Hahn RaceCraft
World's Quickest and Fastest Street J-Bodies
Turbocharging GM FWD's since 1988
www.turbosystem.com
I think the best case for how Dangerous it is, was the Apollo reference.
BUT WTF dose NASA know.
.....
Chris
'02 Z-24 Supercharged
13.7 @102.45 MPH Third Place, 2007 GMSC Bash SOLD AS OF 01MAR08
I haven't seen this guy post since december 5th. Anyone check the news for vehicle explosion?
Keep in mind that "regular air" like what you breathe, what normally goes into your intake for the engine, etc... is only 21% oxygen. It's also 78% nitrogen.
Putting pure 100% oxygen into your engine instead will make you go lean, very quickly. You better have enough fuel for that extra oxygen, or you're going to go through pistons awful quick.
And while we're on it.. since regular air is already 78% nitrogen... spending $4 a tire for 100% nitrogen in your tires... is a waste of $16.
John Lenko wrote:And while we're on it.. since regular air is already 78% nitrogen... spending $4 a tire for 100% nitrogen in your tires... is a waste of $16.
Don't forget about Shell pedaling their "Nitrogen Enriched Fuel".....lolz. All that means is less heat(energy)/volume of fuel. Good deal for them tho!
"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous
