So I am a sophmore at Allegany college of Maryland going for my bachelor's degree in Automotive Technology Management. I have built 1 Ld9 already that went in my dirt track race car but had to build it "stock" in order to meet the standards of the track rules. I will be working on a 1998 Cavalier z24 5peed and plan on running 10 psi of boost.
Now I have decided to build a more powerful Cavalier and have decided to go with a turbo charged setup. I have done my research and I am pretty certain I have an understanding of what I want to do.
THIS POST IS FOR SUGGESTIONS. I HAVE A BASIC IDEA OF WHAT I WANT TO DO.
My plans are as follows:
Wiseco 8:1 compression pistons
Head port and polish
1mm oversized valves
"secret cam swap"
Eagle h-beam rods
255 lph in-line fuel pump
Dyno tune
60 trim turbo
Things open to suggestion:
What wideband o2 to go with?
What boost gauge to go with?
valve springs and retainers?
2.3 oil pump swap or just bore the crank oiling passages?
What brand turbo to go with? Trying not to pay $1000 just for a turbo but do want decent quality
Turbo manifold? log style? I don't know if there is anyone around qualified to customize a header style for me?
injectors?
I appreciate any help and I am opent to all suggestions. Thanks.
Tyler Alkire wrote:
Wiseco 8:1 compression pistons
Head port and polish
1mm oversized valves
"secret cam swap"
Eagle h-beam rods
255 lph in-line fuel pump
Dyno tune
60 trim turbo
Unless you are leaving room for the future, you don't need to go that low on the pistons. 9:1 should be fine with a 60 trim. Everything else looks fine, except you may want to look into the racetronix fuel pump instead of an inline. External pumps can be very noisy.
Tyler Alkire wrote:
Things open to suggestion:
What wideband o2 to go with?
What boost gauge to go with?
valve springs and retainers?
2.3 oil pump swap or just bore the crank oiling passages?
What brand turbo to go with? Trying not to pay $1000 just for a turbo but do want decent quality
Turbo manifold? log style? I don't know if there is anyone around qualified to customize a header style for me?
injectors?
I can't think of one "bad" wideband. The Innovative LC-1 and AEM are easily the most popular. I bought the NGK Powerdex because it has support for the more accurate NGK sensor (although I still use the Bosch that came with it).
A boost gauge is a boost gauge...Go with whatever floats your boat. Cheap or expensive really doesn't matter.
Stock valve springs and retainers are fine with secret cams. Stiffer springs would technically be a "downgrade" unless you can find some way to float the stock valves with secret cams (I can't think of a single person that has).
Oil pump swap is really RPM based. So, if you don't plan on spinning much higher than stock, the stock pump should be fine.
Holset HX-35 and Borg Warner S200's and S300's are popular turbo choices among budget builders. You can often find good deals on diesel turbochargers on ebay or in the classifieds of import sites. I'm sure you can find a good used 60 trim Garrett in those places as well.
Atomic can build you an equal length or "shorty" style turbo manifold.
Injectors depend on how much power you want to make...So how much power do you want to make?
I have no signiture
I lol'd at the not wanting to pay $1k for a turbo but then wants good quality. Those two are mutually exclusive ya know.
While you can find deals and such, I know this, it all depends on how much time you're willing to wait to find it.
I'd stay VERY far away from most diesel turbo's without getting ALL of the specs first and know what you're doing. Diesels generate far more exhaust gases then gasoline motors so you will typically find the A/R's to be much larger than what you'd want on a gas motor.
I do have a turbo for sale if you're interested. It will likely meet or exceed you're power levels(575hp), but it is a very high quality unit and probly wont be in your price range. PM if interested tho, I currently have it listed for ~30% less than I payed and it is still brand new in it's box.
EDIT: I also wouldn't do 8:1 for only 10psi. You'd probably want to be looking at the 9:1 at the lowest and with a good tuning solution could see 9.5-9.8:1 being just fine.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edited Wednesday, January 20, 2010 12:07 PM
"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous
Joshua Dearman wrote:I lol'd at the not wanting to pay $1k for a turbo but then wants good quality. Those two are mutually exclusive ya know.
While you can find deals and such, I know this, it all depends on how much time you're willing to wait to find it.
I'd stay VERY far away from most diesel turbo's without getting ALL of the specs first and know what you're doing. Diesels generate far more exhaust gases then gasoline motors so you will typically find the A/R's to be much larger than what you'd want on a gas motor.
I do have a turbo for sale if you're interested. It will likely meet or exceed you're power levels(575hp), but it is a very high quality unit and probly wont be in your price range. PM if interested tho, I currently have it listed for ~30% less than I payed and it is still brand new in it's box.
I agree to an extent...but there is an enormous amount of information and compressor maps for the major ones ...and the A/R is meaningless when companies like Bullseye Power can make stainless Turbine housing for these turbochargers with gasoline engines in mind.
Borg Warner S300
Bullseye Power S300
...but I agree if you buy a "take-off" charger, you really need to know what you have before going any further with the project. Like I said though, imports have been using these things for years with tremendous success. I should also mention that the Diesels prefer higher pressure ratios, so I will concede the point that they are not necessarily the greatest choice for the low 1.7 pressure ratio the OP wants to run. A Garrett is probably the better choice there...but likely at a higher cost.
I have no signiture
^truth...but by the time you pay for a good condition diesel turbo and then pay for a new turbine housing.....not exactly as cost effective IMHO. You likely would find yourself saving less money than what the headache was worth, and have a used turbo to boot.
Whalesac, I think I know what your were talking about about, but A/R's are NEVER meaningless...they are about the most important parameter of a turbo's design specs. I think what you were meaning was it's not much to worry about since you can buy them without the larger A/R's...and to this I agree. But at that point, would it then still be considered a Diesel Turbo? I'd see that as a turbo built with a gas motor in mind and no longer suited for a diesel, nor found on a diesel, nor called a diesel turbo........
"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous
Joshua Dearman wrote:^truth...but by the time you pay for a good condition diesel turbo and then pay for a new turbine housing.....not exactly as cost effective IMHO. You likely would find yourself saving less money than what the headache was worth, and have a used turbo to boot.
Whalesac, I think I know what your were talking about about, but A/R's are NEVER meaningless...they are about the most important parameter of a turbo's design specs. I think what you were meaning was it's not much to worry about since you can buy them without the larger A/R's...and to this I agree. But at that point, would it then still be considered a Diesel Turbo? I'd see that as a turbo built with a gas motor in mind and no longer suited for a diesel, nor found on a diesel, nor called a diesel turbo........
Gotta agree with Josh here....
P&P Tuning
420.5whp / 359.8wtq
Joshua Dearman wrote:Whalesac, I think I know what your were talking about about, but A/R's are NEVER meaningless...they are about the most important parameter of a turbo's design specs.
correct
Joshua Dearman wrote: I think what you were meaning was it's not much to worry about since you can buy them without the larger A/R's
correct
Joshua Dearman wrote:But at that point, would it then still be considered a Diesel Turbo?
It's just a name given to them because they are only found OEM on Diesels. You are welcome to call them whatever you'd like (call it a grapefruit for all I care)...but one OEM turbo sticks out in my mind that has a relatively small turbine AR for which Cummins owners usually ditch. That's the Holset HY35w or HE351w. It has a 9cm^2 turbine housing, which in A/R terms I believe is close to a 0.50 A/R. Also, a varient of the Holset HX-35 uses a 12cm^2 housing which corresponds to about 0.7 A/R. I'm not entirely sure though. My memory is a little foggy. It's been a lttle while since I researched them...just a lttle food for thought.
I have no signiture
well i found a turbo kit....for just $888 plus 80 for shipping...
I just reallized what I wrote didn't make a great deal of sense
If 9cm^2 corresponds to Area/radius = 0.50, then 12cm^2 would have to correspond to 0.67. As an engineer, you would think I would catch such a silly mistake. My appologies (I think Mr. Samual Adams is starting to get to me).
I have no signiture
Whalesac wrote:Joshua Dearman wrote:But at that point, would it then still be considered a Diesel Turbo?
It's just a name given to them because they are only found OEM on Diesels. You are welcome to call them whatever you'd like (call it a grapefruit for all I care)...but one OEM turbo sticks out in my mind that has a relatively small turbine AR for which Cummins owners usually ditch. That's the Holset HY35w or HE351w. It has a 9cm^2 turbine housing, which in A/R terms I believe is close to a 0.50 A/R. Also, a varient of the Holset HX-35 uses a 12cm^2 housing which corresponds to about 0.7 A/R. I'm not entirely sure though. My memory is a little foggy. It's been a lttle while since I researched them...just a lttle food for thought.
Fair enough, I'm not trying to bust balls man....but you know, and I know, there are people who will get the wrong idea with that naming.
EDIT: quotation failure EDIT: X2..dammit
Edited 2 time(s). Last edited Wednesday, January 20, 2010 2:53 PM
"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous
First off the OP, where in MD are you from? Im in Northeast Baltimore
Id ditch the 8:1 and run atleast 9:1 which if you want more power from a low boost you can run 9.5:1 safely. For my build Im using 9:1 .040" over pistons and a cometic thicker hg soo compression will be pretty low, but Im also using a very slightly decked 95-99 head which raises it a bit. Plus I plan to run 20+ pounds of boost.
For cams I was eventualy gona use the secret swap, but decided that I didnt wana have to tear it apart again when I cant reach my goals, so Im using HO cams.
Im using a walbro 255lph inline pump, but also using a modified walbro intank pump. I modded the intank to have the extra pickup just like the racetronox pump has. Theres a thread on it in the performance forum. If your intank pump cant keep up or is bad, an inline wont do you any good.
Forgot to address the turbo subject..I may or may not run a "diesel" turbo, depends on if I find a decent deal on something else. There are many of them well suited for good 4cyl builds, and there are tons of imports that show this. I also have a friend who worked at a diesel shop and has many sitting around I could get dirt cheap. I may be looking into a larger holset Hc1, or HX35. People say well theyre not ball bearing which is a downside, but many of them even come with divided inlet housings or can be bought.
I dont think theres anything wrong with using factory diesel turbochargers. Go on ebay and just type something like "turbocharger", youlld see names like Holset, bullseye and borg warner right with the bigger names like Garrett, Turbonetics and Precision.
Im located in cumberland, md. way east from you! lol probably 3 hours or so. Thanks for all the advice guys! I guess I will change to 9:1 compression. Racetronix makes a fuel pump for our cars? Final things I am unsure about are do I need any ignition mods and what fuel injector size to go with!
I would like to put in a vote for High Output cams, stock size SS valves, 10:1 final static compression,
and a Garrett full 60-1 with .63 a/r T3 STYLE inlet and 4 bolt outlet option.
3 inch exhaust, 2.5 inch charge pipes, HO intake manifold with a 70mm GM throttle body grafted on.
You will make a lot of power on your '10psi' goal. And that's a turbo under $900.
I think log or header style manifold choice depends on intended use.
Racetronix makes a pump for F-body cars that can be used in J cars with a little work, IIRC.
I remember from school that our GM ignition systems SHOULD BE more than enough,
but that hasn't held true for everyone running a boosted LD9. Look into the external coil swap
with some sort of aftermarket coils and wires. Plugs will need to be colder.
Injectors? IDK. You should figure out a power goal. That would be so much more useful
than a '10 psi' goal.
ZZZZZZZ
