Sorry in advance for rambling on in this thread, but i have a lot of thoughts/ideas/questions. If you feel the need to tell me this blower is no good for a stock L61, I'm aware
Big question - this blower takes a different pulley than the M62 right? I believe the bolt pattern is different on the hub. I cannot find a 5-rib pulley for the TVS - has anyone come across one? Or is the only way to switch to a 6-rib system (which wouldn't be that hard, just another step and added expense)? ZZP sells an optioned supercharger kit that comes down to about 1600 if you have your own blower and includes their massive heat exchanger. I've seen gently used TVS blowers go for as low as 1300.
Any guesses on output with a 3.4" pulley (also cammed and ported head w/ oversized valves)? Being that it's more efficient than the M62, and that's the largest pulley size I can find - the heat should be minimal. In theory it would be a good starting point for tuning on our 1-bar system with hpt. I've seen outputs on the LSJ over 350whp...
Another concern is our lack of an IAT2 sensor. The car's ecu really has no idea how hot the air is going into the engine. Is there any way to mount our IAT on the pressurized intake manifold to correct this? At least then we could control timing (and heat related KR) via the IAT spark modifier table. You could get more aggressive with spark for cooler IAT and retard it for high IAT - this especially interests me because of running a water/meth injection set up. If the water/meth would fail for some reason, the IAT would be higher at any given time and timing would be pulled as a built in failsafe. It's primative yet simple and effective.
this is Qwibby: I suppose you could use a threaded IAT sensor like some of us have before in our charge pipes. Just tap the intake manifold below the SC unit, albeit idk how comfortable you are drilling and tapping a hole there, or what will happen when it reads IAT's around 150 degrees As Far as anything technical with the TVS get a hold of rodimus, he may even stop by steves this weekend. That IAT sensor I believe is off late 80's F Body behicles.
ShowOff Customz
03 Cavalier
73 Beetle
68 Fairlane 500
oldskool wrote:
Big question - this blower takes a different pulley than the M62 right? I believe the bolt pattern is different on the hub. I cannot find a 5-rib pulley for the TVS - has anyone come across one? Or is the only way to switch to a 6-rib system (which wouldn't be that hard, just another step and added expense)? ZZP sells an optioned supercharger kit that comes down to about 1600 if you have your own blower and includes their massive heat exchanger. I've seen gently used TVS blowers go for as low as 1300.
You use the standard 6-rib pulley like you do with the M62 set-ups. There is no harm in leaving a grove open.
oldskool wrote:
Any guesses on output with a 3.4" pulley (also cammed and ported head w/ oversized valves)? Being that it's more efficient than the M62, and that's the largest pulley size I can find - the heat should be minimal. In theory it would be a good starting point for tuning on our 1-bar system with hpt. I've seen outputs on the LSJ over 350whp...
The lowest PSI rating i have seen for it is 18-19psi, but i forget the pulley size. Im also assuming that know that engine specifics can affect boost pressure.
oldskool wrote:
Another concern is our lack of an IAT2 sensor. The car's ecu really has no idea how hot the air is going into the engine. Is there any way to mount our IAT on the pressurized intake manifold to correct this? At least then we could control timing (and heat related KR) via the IAT spark modifier table. You could get more aggressive with spark for cooler IAT and retard it for high IAT - this especially interests me because of running a water/meth injection set up. If the water/meth would fail for some reason, the IAT would be higher at any given time and timing would be pulled as a built in failsafe. It's primative yet simple and effective.
It mounts up exactly like the M62 and there is a TMAP(Temperature Manifold Air Pressure) right off #1 intake runner in the LSJ manifold. I havent viewed the sensor in HPT so i have no idea of it's specific outputs, but i'd image it would do the trick.
I have a bunch of info on the HTV -1320LSJ on my laptop.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Thursday, April 08, 2010 6:24 AM
Hey Phil - do you know if that IAT from the firebird is plug and play with the jbody? I'm more than willing to tap the intake mani if it means the ECU sees accurate temps. Thanks for the heads up too - i need to check the upper threshold on our IAT - would not be cool to ride around with it maxxed, but i also hope to avoid temps that high lol.
Tinkles - ZZP explicitly warns against using the 6-rib pulley on a 5-rib belt system. I'm not sure why - maybe to sell a product or maybe the have a bad experience, but that is what prompted the worry about it. I guess the question is are people running s/c set ups that way? 6-rib pulley and 5-rib belt?
Aren't all the T-maps more than 1-bar? I'm not switching to any "fake x-bar" tune.
Wow - 18-19 psi? I haven't been able to find anyone that's used a 3.4" pulley on a ported/cammed head. Hopefully it's more like 10-ish lol. If this all pans out, I'll also have significantly more displacement than the LSJ for a nice pressure drop
I was just going to edit my post. with this info:
What PSI can I expect from "x" pulley?
64mm / 2.5" ~ 27.5 psi
70mm / 2.75" ~ 25 psi
75mm / 2.95" ~ 22.5 psi
80mm / 3.15" ~ 20 psi
85mm / 3.35" ~ 17.5 psi
89mm / 3.5" ~15psi
All of the S/C guys including myself are running a 5-rib belt on a 6-rib pulley. The S/C install instructions tell you to cut a rib of the LSJ belt(making it a 5-rib belt) so it'll work on the L61 pulleys. GM > ZZP, they are just trying to sell products.
Thanks for the info - that makes me feel warm inside lol. Think i've seen that chart before - assuming those boost numbers are for a stock LSJ?
oldskool wrote:Hey Phil - do you know if that IAT from the firebird is plug and play with the jbody? I'm more than willing to tap the intake mani if it means the ECU sees accurate temps. Thanks for the heads up too - i need to check the upper threshold on our IAT - would not be cool to ride around with it maxxed, but i also hope to avoid temps that high lol.
Tinkles - ZZP explicitly warns against using the 6-rib pulley on a 5-rib belt system. I'm not sure why - maybe to sell a product or maybe the have a bad experience, but that is what prompted the worry about it. I guess the question is are people running s/c set ups that way? 6-rib pulley and 5-rib belt?
Aren't all the T-maps more than 1-bar? I'm not switching to any "fake x-bar" tune.
Wow - 18-19 psi? I haven't been able to find anyone that's used a 3.4" pulley on a ported/cammed head. Hopefully it's more like 10-ish lol. If this all pans out, I'll also have significantly more displacement than the LSJ for a nice pressure drop
Ask "David" whitecavy what camaro IAT sensor he uses......I know the sensor DOES NOT like high boost.
The offset in grooves are so close from the 5 rib to 6 rib pulleys.....the belt will be fine. Is it 100% correct no, but it will be perfectly fine.
The grooves on the 5 and 6 ribbed belts are 100% the same....
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Thursday, April 08, 2010 7:29 AM
PRND321 Till I DIE
Old Motor: 160whp & 152ft/lbs, 1/4 Mile 15.4 @88.2
M45 + LD9 + 4T40-E, GO GO GO
oldskool wrote:assuming those boost numbers are for a stock LSJ?
Yep. A ported head and my exhaust should drop them down a bit.
after i max out this m62, im going to try a prep for a tvs also. I have a spare engine im building. So im subcribed, trying to get some good info on this thing.
Mods: Synapse Charge Piping, Short Throw, Bad-Mab Dp, Dejon Intake, BYT Tuned!
Parts For SALE! Pacesetter Header(ECO),17'in Resonator, Alternator, Starter, Viper Alarm.
((Super))KbRedCavy wrote:after i max out this m62, im going to try a prep for a tvs also. I have a spare engine im building. So im subcribed, trying to get some good info on this thing.
It's alot of work, trust me.
i believe it! I like a challenge tho, Thats why i have the M62 should keep me busy for a while, while i build this block
Mods: Synapse Charge Piping, Short Throw, Bad-Mab Dp, Dejon Intake, BYT Tuned!
Parts For SALE! Pacesetter Header(ECO),17'in Resonator, Alternator, Starter, Viper Alarm.
I dont see it being able to run with anything other than a standalone
1989 Turbo Trans Am #82, 2007 Cobalt SS G85
^Really you don't think the stupid eco- ECU can keep up? properly tuned? even with HPT?
Mods: Synapse Charge Piping, Short Throw, Bad-Mab Dp, Dejon Intake, BYT Tuned!
Parts For SALE! Pacesetter Header(ECO),17'in Resonator, Alternator, Starter, Viper Alarm.
Rodimus Prime wrote:I dont see it being able to run with anything other than a standalone
Hey Rod, is that because of our limited fueling/100 unit VE range? Or timing or both? I would plan on a 2:1 FMU at least and water/meth injection. That with 60 lb/hr injectors and a carefully scaled IPW VAC modifier should let you idle "ok" and dial in fueling in boost. as a bigger engine (with the largest pulley you could get). I'm just thinking out loud here, so what are you thoughts on why this wouldn't work with HPT/FMU?
PSIG should be lower than the chart Tink posted because of the better flow form the ported head/cams/OS valve, and moar displacement lol.
Rodimus Prime wrote:I dont see it being able to run with anything other than a standalone
Reason? Swapping the M62 for the Harrop is the same as swapping from a 16G to a 20G.
I would run the TMAP for the IAT part alone. I think you can wire in just the IAT part of the sensor as well.
FU Tuning
oldskool wrote:Hey Phil - do you know if that IAT from the firebird is plug and play with the jbody? I'm more than willing to tap the intake mani if it means the ECU sees accurate temps. Thanks for the heads up too - i need to check the upper threshold on our IAT - would not be cool to ride around with it maxed, but i also hope to avoid temps that high lol.
i used the camaro iat sensor. don't recall which year it was from. it threads right in on the lsj manifold on the alternator side.
my carDomain updated 3/2/10 Forged and Supercharged
Not sure if this is going to help you but this is what I am doing for tuning with a 1bar with the gm kit. Since the kit came with the tmap and harness all i did was unplug the map connector from the harness and plugged it into the stock 1bar. I added a T connector into the hose going from the manifold to the FPR and then hooked up the 1bar. I kept the tmap in the manifold and left the IAT plugged in.
To do this you would need the harness and the tmap. You can then wire in the IAT to the harness and you'd be all set. The camaro sensor does sound like a better and easier route but I just wanted to post this in case you or anybody else was interested tuning with the 1bar.
For the people with the GM kit:
Note: The kit came with new IAT and Map connectors which replaces the stock connectors on the car to plug into the harness. This is what i had to do to get my stock 1 bar to work with out repining the old connectors back on. This way I can always unplug the 1 bar and and connect the tmap back for the gm reflash in between the time I'm tuning.
This is the stock 1 bar map.
I melted off that plastic tab.
As you can see in my diagram, that the replacement connector can now plug into the stock map with no problems.
Note: The wiring on the new connector for the kit is now backwards. I originally plugged in the map so the locking tab from the connector snap on the little tab on the map sensor. I learned this when i fired up the car for the first time and my map was not reading correctly. All you have to do is a 180 on the connector and it plugs in just fine.
This is what i was gonna do for fueling so I don't have to max out the ve offset per what Admiral Jedi had posted on the ecotecforum.com . I was planning on using the .27000 injector constant (still using the kits injectors) like noted in John's fake 2.5 bar thread. I remember getting the car to run on a fake 2.5 and it provided the fueling I needed for the high rpms. The reason I'm switching to a 1 bar was because my timing readings were off when under boost when I compared them to my logs with what I had in my tables. Going to the 1 bar helped me fix this issue.
Save your money. It might be worth something someday.
Good info. I'm surprised the Camaro IAT screws into the manifold,but good to know.
FU Tuning
Too Whiney wrote:Good info. I'm surprised the Camaro IAT screws into the manifold,but good to know.
should be able to see it in my pic on the upper left side of the manifold
my carDomain updated 3/2/10 Forged and Supercharged
Between the info posted here and hours of discussion with Tinkles and Phil over this weekend, the conclusion is the TVS will be a lot of fun on a Jbody
. Tuning via 1-bar should not be anymore difficult than with the M62 as long as you start with a large pulley (i want something like a 3.6" to start), and work your way up from there. FMU's and progressive water/meth injection are your friend for boost-referenced fueling. Hell, a big sidebar for us was discussing the GM reflash and how insanely rich it is. You could probably run something like a 3.6" pulley on the reflash.
you can run that set up just fine on a one bar as long as you have a great tuner and enough fuel...
The camaro iat you speak of is a part from autozone. Part number SU-107 and yes the j ECM reads it just fine it's plug and play.
I would ask this guy how fun it is. Loooks and sounds pretty damn fun to me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzmT4kC-FsI&feature=youtube_gdata
