Well I'm almost to the point where I'm going to send my motor out to be built, and I know tuning is the kicker on our cars. Last time when I had my mp62 tuned I was lucky enough to have Ryan (cavattack2200) work his magic on my eco....but now I'm selling all that and going tubro because I'd like to be at 375-400whp for my dd. What are your opinions running this on your car, positives, negitives, would you do it again? I've considered doing the Ld9 harness and supercharger reflash swap, and even using hpt with an afpr and fmu...but I figured I would look into the PF as another option as I'm not against spending money on something that works. Whats your opinion on the split second software for the tuning of the EIC? I'm also curious of how the 2nd row of injectors is plumbed into the stock fuel system so if anyone has any good engine shots they could share that would be awesome.
Thanks for the input guys.
port fuellers are great for low boost builds. they just add fuel to the engine based on tps, rpm, and map sensor(boost level). they do not adjust timing so high boost builds are not a good idea wth this type of system unless you have some sort of timing controller. if your looking for a high boost build then a ecm tune with a 2.5 bar map sensor is the way to go.
a port fueller taps into your existing fuel system by means of the shrader valve port on the rail or by spliting the supply line with special fittings which may require a special shop to do. you will be supplying fuel to extra injectors so your fuel pump needs to be up to par. this is the setup i am currently using on my 06 cobalt as i dont have any tuning options for my year vehicle. if you have an eco engine then you will need to buy or build an intake manifold as the stock eco fuel rail and injectors are in the way so a port fueller spacer will not work. if your vehicle is supported by tuning software then i would suggest you go that route instead of extra injectors.
Port fueler is the way to go hands down. What joel doesn't realize is that with the port fueler you can also use hpt to control your timing. Cameron is running the PF with his 500+ whp eco. It's an amazing system because it reads fuel per boost up to 3 bar. And will add fuel per boost, the secondary injectors only ever come on in boost so out of boost the sock ecu retains drivability. I would do it again, over and over and over.
Joel - our port fueler systems come with a manifold and ALL necessary hardware.
As you can see the feed line runs into the new rail, and runs into the stock rail after. I'd recommend the racetronix pump swap seeing as it's 99% direct swap in, I am running it and it was a giant help. Any other questions, shoot me a PM I am way low on posts for the month
LE61T PTE6262 Powered 
Joe L- Thanks for the input but sounds like you've had a few obstacles with your balt, do you have a build thread here or on ecotecforum?
Phil- I've been on a racetronix F body pump and 14v harness since I've been supercharged so that's covered. Thanks for the input. Do you have any other pics you could post up or send via pm like from the drivers side looking at engine bay? I think I remember reading an old thread where you had Oldskool working on blending the hpt with the PF and after a little messing around He got a good crossover into boost using bigger injectors than what Hahn provided origionally correct? I know you said to pm if I had more questions but I'm trying to keep it on the forums so others can look this up later on down the road.
Yeah, he did some AWESOME smoothing, he actually wrote his own page in excel to interpolate afr's and such between both programs. I'll have him chime in here, and unfortunately atm I do not have any other pics. What would you need to see, maybe I can explain it?
Here is an older more close up pic
LE61T PTE6262 Powered
As far as tuning it in tandem with HPT, i'd recommend having a loggable boost gauge. Using that boost gauge and your wideband, you set up a histogram in HPT to look exactly like the PF map. Log either raw AFR or AFR error in this histo depending on how you want to translate the data to the PF software. I have two spreadsheets handy that either use HPT's commanded AFR, or set the commanded AFR through the sheet (more resolution). You and/or your tuner are welcome to either of them if you want.
One thing to note is if you set the commanded afr in HPT and your using stock injectors in the stock rail, chances are you will max them w/o touching the high RPM VE table. Think about it - you will be running 7000+rpm and commanding ~12:1AFR, give or take, and the stock injectors just won't handle that if you leave the VE table stock. You will actually have to dial it back to keep the IDC in check. For example, Phil's was around 110%. That is one of the advantages of setting the commanded AFR thought the sheet - you don't have to worry as much about maxing the stockers.
Best of luck, this type of system is one of the better approaches to higher horsepower on our platform (w/o speed density), although it's a bit more work up front, IMHO it's better for drivability and there is less guess work when the weatehr changes and such.
JUCNBST wrote:Well I'm almost to the point where I'm going to send my motor out to be built, and I know tuning is the kicker on our cars. Last time when I had my mp62 tuned I was lucky enough to have Ryan (cavattack2200) work his magic on my eco....but now I'm selling all that and going tubro because I'd like to be at 375-400whp for my dd. What are your opinions running this on your car, positives, negitives, would you do it again? I've considered doing the Ld9 harness and supercharger reflash swap, and even using hpt with an afpr and fmu...but I figured I would look into the PF as another option as I'm not against spending money on something that works. Whats your opinion on the split second software for the tuning of the EIC? I'm also curious of how the 2nd row of injectors is plumbed into the stock fuel system so if anyone has any good engine shots they could share that would be awesome.
Thanks for the input guys.
Since ryan dropped a tune in before, see what he thinks. He is doing mine with injectors and fmu and I should hope to be right at the level you are aiming for. I did 323whp on the tiny maxed out injectors. So 375-400 shouldn't be a problem.
Can you say heads up race when you are ready?
although, you have drag wheels.
Also, pm me with your setup plans and what not too. Since we are along the same lines, I have 90% of my old setup also if interested. Not to mention since we are going for same numbers, your system could be pretty well matched to mine. Hit me up in a pm or ill just text you.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Tuesday, June 21, 2011 11:58 AM
Phil- that pic shows what I was looking for. I just wanted a clearer shot of plumbing for the fuel rails. Thanks
Oldskool-Thanks for the info and the offer for use of the spreadsheets. I drive this turd year round so drivability is key for me plus in chicagoland we have some decent weather temp changes
Vince- I shot Ryan a pm a while back telling him that I would be in the market for another tune in the future, I just didn't tell him I might buy a portfueler. I was debating on going the ld9 harness and reflash route but I'm not really wanting to deal with a harness swap and then maybe having wiring issues with the older harness.
I would be down for a little heads up action when my car is done....or maybe we could both make some other cars depressed by giving them a little jbody beatdown (at the track of course). I just woke up and need to leave for work in 20min so I'll shoot you a pm later with what my goals are, and see what parts your looking to get rid of.
Thanks for all the feedback guys.....
hey sorry i didnt get back to you, was trying to beat the hail, i should have some free time tomorrow and will get a hold of you then.
Port fueler wouldnt be my first choice, unless I had too, such as not being able to find big enough single injectors to meet a horse power goal. At the same time I dont believe you can properly tune a turbo setup on the eco computer, sure you can make it run, drive, and not blow up but theres a lot of sacrifices in drivability and power to make that not blowing up part that you wouldnt have if it was speed density. Personally my suggestion would be 2.4 pcm swap or standalone.
1994 Saturn SL2 Home Coming Edition: backup car
2002 Chevy Cavalier LS Sport Coupe: In a Junk Yard
1995 Mazda Miata R-package Class=STR
Sponsored by:
Kronos Performance
WPI Class of '12 Mechanical Engineering
WPI SAE Risk and Sustainability Management Officer
Leafy (Club Jeffie FEA man) wrote:Port fueler wouldnt be my first choice, unless I had too, such as not being able to find big enough single injectors to meet a horse power goal. At the same time I dont believe you can properly tune a turbo setup on the eco computer, sure you can make it run, drive, and not blow up but theres a lot of sacrifices in drivability and power to make that not blowing up part that you wouldnt have if it was speed density. Personally my suggestion would be 2.4 pcm swap or standalone.
This is why the PF or similar system is an attractive option. Is it better or worse than the LD9 s/c OS/PCM/Harness swap? IDK, i guess that depends on budget and options and what not. Remember you are getting a nice intake manifold upgrade with the system, not just a fancy extra injector controller. But i totally agree with you on the point in bold - the bigger you go with injectors and the more power you make, the worse it gets for drivability and consistency. But these are subjective factors and some ppl can live with more than others.
For a vehicle intended to be a DD, there really isn't a better fueling system that retains as many DD qualities as the PortFueler does. For the most part, it is also a very straight forward install. The hardest part is mounting the EIC and if you can't drill a few pilot holes for self tapping screws... you probably shouldn't be turbocharging anything lol. People can argue and bench talk all they want but results are results; the quickest JBO on this site uses one, and the mileage is just about as good as stock when you're not boosting... what more can you ask for?
Street-Legal 2003 Sunfire 10.58 @ 139 MPH
I think I can manage a few pilot holes..... haha
I have a portfueler and I don't regret it. Before getting it, trying to get stock driveability from single injectors with HPTuners was making me lose my hair. Yes, of course you can make it run, and I did. It ran fine before the portfueler, it's just that it didn't run like my stock car used to.
Since installing portfueler, I have never had any issues with fueling. It was fairly straightforward to install (since I usually fabricate most of my own stuff, it was nice to just wrench something in for a change). Not to mention the Hahn unit is impressive, the welds are fantastic, and aesthetically its a really nice addition to the engine bay.
One complaint I have is with the tuning software, SplitSecond. I mean, of course this is obvious for the tuners here, but I don't like that there is no way to easily use info from your AFR or boost gauge while tuning. You have to involve a second step, with excel or something similar to fine tune. It's not a big deal, but it's a bit of a bother for me anwyay.
Dave Dunsmoor wrote:One complaint I have is with the tuning software, SplitSecond. I mean, of course this is obvious for the tuners here, but I don't like that there is no way to easily use info from your AFR or boost gauge while tuning. You have to involve a second step, with excel or something similar to fine tune. It's not a big deal, but it's a bit of a bother for me anwyay.
There's that, and the fact that simple windows functions like select all, cut copy and paste hot keys do NOT work - very frustrating lol.
BuiltNBoosted wrote:
Since ryan dropped a tune in before, see what he thinks. He is doing mine with injectors and fmu and I should hope to be right at the level you are aiming for. I did 323whp on the tiny maxed out injectors. So 375-400 shouldn't be a problem.
When you can get a hold of him
Leafy (Club Jeffie FEA man) wrote:Port fueler wouldnt be my first choice, unless I had too, such as not being able to find big enough single injectors to meet a horse power goal. At the same time I dont believe you can properly tune a turbo setup on the eco computer, sure you can make it run, drive, and not blow up but theres a lot of sacrifices in drivability and power to make that not blowing up part that you wouldnt have if it was speed density. Personally my suggestion would be 2.4 pcm swap or standalone.
Sometimes it's nicer to have staged injection (more so with High-Impedance injectors) because it's much easier to tune idle and other small engine loads. Granted, <500whp of fuel out of 4 injectors isn't really that bad, but the larger your injector, the lower your tuning resolution becomes.
I have no signiture
Thats what I was getting at.
1994 Saturn SL2 Home Coming Edition: backup car
2002 Chevy Cavalier LS Sport Coupe: In a Junk Yard
1995 Mazda Miata R-package Class=STR
Sponsored by:
Kronos Performance
WPI Class of '12 Mechanical Engineering
WPI SAE Risk and Sustainability Management Officer
do you have a website of where i can buy one of these intake kits??
does the factory throttle body bolt up to the intake manifold
Leafy (Club Jeffie FEA man) wrote:such as not being able to find big enough single injectors to meet a horse power goal.
thats why i never size injectors for a horsepower goal... cant do much except brag about having 450+hp since for a street cavalier or sunfire its useless... i sized my injectors for an efficient and performance range. Im gonna use most of my injector with a little bit of room to breathe still and the will work for the ET im trying to run.
BuiltNBoosted wrote:Leafy (Club Jeffie FEA man) wrote:such as not being able to find big enough single injectors to meet a horse power goal.
thats why i never size injectors for a horsepower goal... cant do much except brag about having 450+hp since for a street cavalier or sunfire its useless... i sized my injectors for an efficient and performance range. Im gonna use most of my injector with a little bit of room to breathe still and the will work for the ET im trying to run.
Sorry, but i don't get this - performance = whp, no? Really the only way to size injectors for your application is by horsepower, and by max injector duty cycle for your application. Considering room to breath i understand, but without a horsepower goal, or at least an airflow goal based on your build, how do you choose injectors? Or do you just keep buying bigger and bigger until IDC is in check?
oldskool wrote:BuiltNBoosted wrote:Leafy (Club Jeffie FEA man) wrote:such as not being able to find big enough single injectors to meet a horse power goal.
thats why i never size injectors for a horsepower goal... cant do much except brag about having 450+hp since for a street cavalier or sunfire its useless... i sized my injectors for an efficient and performance range. Im gonna use most of my injector with a little bit of room to breathe still and the will work for the ET im trying to run.
Sorry, but i don't get this - performance = whp, no? Really the only way to size injectors for your application is by horsepower, and by max injector duty cycle for your application. Considering room to breath i understand, but without a horsepower goal, or at least an airflow goal based on your build, how do you choose injectors? Or do you just keep buying bigger and bigger until IDC is in check?
im not trying to argue with you on it, just stating how i did mine.
I didnt set out and say i need injectors for 500+hp. Because I absolutely know I dont want 500hp. I said, ok i want to run 11.500-11.999. what do i need. 500hp? nope. the most efficient setup I can get? yep. Based off of using my 42.5#ers, I was able to figure out how much overhead I need to try to keep the new ones as close to 80% IDC as I could. All the while while keeping street drivability in the car. Which I did. hell I could have pulled a low 12 with 325whp... look at our top ET list. Dont need 500hp that you cant use for those times.
in my book, performance ='s how the car performs day in and day out. i measure my performance in a 1/4 mile. MANY AND MOST, use the dyno then brag about numbers. im expecting to have a semi low hp/tq combo but I figure if I use both, I can figure out how efficient im using my power. 450+ in a daily driven j imo, is pointless. You just cant use it. Im not even aiming for a power level. Whats the point of making power if you cant use it? everyone keeps asking me, how much power you want to make? I say, dont care, as long as i run my 11s thats all that matters.
Best way to do our cars? Harness swap and HPT.
